AR-15 Technique?

[Justsomedude]

Reading the US Marine Rifle Marksmanship Manual....

They cover the Hasty/Loop Sling and all the Shooting positions.
But their Arm positioning is more of the "Arms as a BiPod" structure and not about getting the Support arm under the Rifle.
They also don't run their support hand very far forward.
The Mag is even with their support wrist.

I know there are a few factors at work....the Mag can get in the way, mobility and fast target transitions as opposed to long range sharpshooting etc...

How do you approach shooting with the AR?
Standing I can fit my support arm directly under a 30 round mag.
Prone...I can't (can with a 20rnd thoug).

Do you just do your best within the confines of whatever equipment you are using and the situation you are in to apply the closest thing to solid fundamentals?

[Roland]

Personally, if I'm not actually at an AS event, I use the mag as a monopod. Let the flaming begin, I'm sure.

At an AS, I use curved C-Products 20rounders, and basically pull my arm in until it contacts the side of the mag. (I tend to get really low in Prone.)

[Two Wolves]

As a Marine I will tell you the three most important things you need to know.

1. IMPROVISE

2. ADAPT AND OVERCOME

3. EVERY SENTANCE BEGINS AND ENDS WITH "SIR"

Having said that, I have shot my AR at about 10 Appleseeds and I always use a 30rd magazine. Also I only use the hasty sling. It does interfere slightly with my support hand but it does not restrict me from shooting in the 235 range. The reason I will give you for my shooting style is this. In case of an emergency, this is my go to weapon and I want to be proficient and comfortable with my equipmet at that moment.

If you need further insight look up and read the riflemans creed, " This is my rifle" 

~ My America, my Appleseed, my mission, Two Wolves

[oladcock]

Simple, don't use 30 round mags! My wife and I have had the honor of working with some PD's and individual officers as they are discovering they too might find themselves in long range engagements. 30 round mags get in the way of steady hold factors we teach or improvised positions to take advantage of cover and concealment. Many who've experimented see an advantage to at least have 10 or 20 round mags available in case the situation warrents it.

One will find the difference in POI significant between slung up and unslung using the mag as a monopod at long range, plus losing NPOA quickly on soft ground. More so with some rifles than others. If putting rounds down range is the goal, what's the time difference between 1 mag of 30 and 3 mags of 10? About 4 seconds. One shot worth. I keep 3 or 4 - 10 round mags with me at seeds just for the monopodders. ....O.L.

[ItsanSKS]

This is mostly a question about shooter geometry.  In order to get your support hand out where it should be (at the sling swivel) a short shooter (me!) with a longer rifle will need a more extreme index to the target.  A tall shooter with a shorter rifle, will need a less extreme index. 

[Justsomedude]

I haven't tried 10 round mags.  I've got two 20's, two Magpul 30's and two GI 30's.
The 20's seem short to me but I'm not that low in prone and my arms are fairly long....6'1" 210lbs

I have a Blueforce Gear Vickers Sling on my AR and it seems to work well as a Loop Sling without adjusting it from Hasty.

As luck would have it, I don't have a shooting style.
I look for information, try it out and see what the advantages/disadvantages are.
I'm a blank slate and am happy to 'do as I am told' and learn from that.

What I am feeling is that the extended Support arm up into the swivel with the arm directly under the Rifle gives better Vertical support.
Pulling the support hand back where the support wrist is next to the mag gives (me) more Lateral Support.
Running my support hand on the Side of the Handguard and pointing with my index finger and a square stance (3 Gun 'Practical Style' run and gun) gives faster target transition but I can only shoot MOBG that way
(Minute of Bad Guy)

[Justsomedude]

Incidentally for those that don't know:

In the Field Manual they show Mag Support in the improvised positions.
They show front of mag, front edge of mag, Bottom of Mag.
Says that using the BACK of the mag as support may cause feeding issues.

[oladcock]

Incidentally for those that don't know:

In the Field Manual they show Mag Support in the improvised positions.
They show front of mag, front edge of mag, Bottom of Mag.
Says that using the BACK of the mag as support may cause feeding issues.

Yep, resting on the mag increases the possiblity of malfunctions, not just in AR's...O.L.

[henschman]

When slung up with an AR, I have my elbow up against the mag (as close to under the rifle as possible).  As for support hand position, I don't like to stretch out too far... the factory swivel location on an AR with rifle-length handguards is too far for my preference.  I like the swivel to be about where the carbine-length factory swivel is.  The sling tends to want to slip down your arm if you have your support arm stretched out too far forward.  Thank goodness for modular handguards that make it easy to move the front swivel wherever you want!  Also it is best to re-locate the swivel to the handguard anyway, so you're not pulling directly on the barrel like with the factory swivel setup.  This greatly reduces the POI shift you experience when shooting slung.

I find that a sling-supported position gives me better accuracy than monopodding.  Monopodding is good for situations in which you don't have time to sling up, such as more dynamic or close-quarters situations in which speed is more important than stability... but for those situations that call for more precision (like the good ol' quarter mile shot), I go ahead and loop up in the sling (which takes 3 seconds or less with my sling setup).

[grunt soldier]

I like to get my elbow under the rifle even with the AR.  I feel more stable.  for the I like to keep some 20 rounders on hand.  I keep a bunch of 30's also but as cheap as you can find them you might as well have some on hand. 

[oladcock]

 

[slim]

How do you approach shooting with the AR?

I practice.

I shoot it whenever I get the chance and when I don't get to shoot it, I dry fire. As time goes on and the more and more I persist, the better my position becomes and the easier it is to shoot well.

This past weekend I was out shooting and last time I let someone borrow my rifle, they lost the swivel. No sling for me. No problem. 500 yards? No problem. Why? Because I'd been practicing.

Those military manuals are great for tips and tricks, pointers, etc., but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how much you've been practicing. Eventually you'll stretch into position and the magazines, elbow, support hand, etc., won't be an issue.

[Charles McKinley]

Hey Slim,

Have you found Jesse's last name?

A member of the USMCR shooting team showed up at the IBC and did an impromptu clinic!  He suggested getting into prone and watching TV.  Great way to pass an hour or so in position.

His prone was called laying on rifle.  He was really low and rock steady.

He used a sitting position like Meanstreaker was teaching by crossing your ankles and pulling them back rather than the vary low aiming cross legged position I was using.

His off hand was amazingly steady.  The muzzle didn't move.

That short segment was easily worth twice the price of admission.

[slim]

His last name is NOT "the body Ventura." Other than that, I don't know. I bet posterboy knows. You could probably PM him and find out. What I usually refer to him as is "that Marine Corps dude, Jesse." He knows more about shooting and marksmanship than I'll ever know in my entire life. I've been lucky enough to catch him out there a few times and I learn something (a lot!) each time. He's a great dude and I definitely listen when he speaks. However, I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather spend my time teaching 25 people to shoot 4 MOA than practicing 4 times a week so I can shoot .25 MOA.

Different tools for the tool box. 

You're absolutely right in that his impromptu "clinic" was well worth the admission price. I learned quite a bit. And I'll add that he's active in teaching Marines the fundamentals of marksmanship as well so he's doing his part to get those 25 people taught too.

It's important for us to remember he was teaching us High Power tips and tricks - not Appleseed instruction. Those are tools for our tool box but not necessarily for instruction at AS events.

Since this is an AR thread, I'll point out what I mean. He had a 3.5lb weight in his buttstock to change the center of gravity and improve balance. We'd never encourage that since we're a field shooting program. Who wants to carry extra weight? But, it's a good tip if you want to get into that type of shooting and we can take the lesson from it in offhand to remember the rifle should be well balanced and we shouldn't be holding it up. We can do so by changing our sling position (hasty) and keeping our elbow close to our torso. The rifle is balanced. Huzzah!

[SPQR]

+1 on ItsanSKS and Slims comments.  If you want to smoke cigarettes and play guitar at the same time, you gotta practice.

[CharlieHotel]

When I was in the Corps many, many years ago. We practiced getting our magazines on the outside of our support elbow in prone. This initially hurt like hell but eventually developed the flexibility to get your elbow under the rifle where it belongs.
I don't recommend this while shooting because if your not really flexible the pressure on the Magazine causes canting to the right. However if you do this while practicing you will develop the flexibility to get the rifle directly over your elbow easily and repeatably.

CH

[boltgun71]

Incidentally for those that don't know:

In the Field Manual they show Mag Support in the improvised positions.
They show front of mag, front edge of mag, Bottom of Mag.
Says that using the BACK of the mag as support may cause feeding issues.

Yep, resting on the mag increases the possiblity of malfunctions, not just in AR's...O.L.

Using the mag as a support is highly encouraged and taught throughout the military now.  With quality mags it will not induce a malfunction with the AR.  With some other systems, yes, but not the AR. If it is causing your AR to jam you need either new mags or a quality in-spec lower reciever.

Since 2008 I have taught upwards of 5,000 soldiers how to shoot and use the magazine as support, not once has there been a malfunction induced from it. 

[oladcock]

Incidentally for those that don't know:

In the Field Manual they show Mag Support in the improvised positions.
They show front of mag, front edge of mag, Bottom of Mag.
Says that using the BACK of the mag as support may cause feeding issues.

Yep, resting on the mag increases the possiblity of malfunctions, not just in AR's...O.L.

Using the mag as a support is highly encouraged and taught throughout the military now.  With quality mags it will not induce a malfunction with the AR.  With some other systems, yes, but not the AR. If it is causing your AR to jam you need either new mags or a quality in-spec lower reciever.

Since 2008 I have taught upwards of 5,000 soldiers how to shoot and use the magazine as support, not once has there been a malfunction induced from it.

Yep, I've only taught a few dozen just the opposite. I was trying to find the thread were the AZ AS instructors KICKED the mil and LE's tail in the SDM competitions where they were using a sling/Appleseed techniques while they (mil/le) were using the mags as a mono pod. Ain't good for maintaining NPOA for rapid fire. Don't get me wrong, more tools in the tool box the better but give them ALL the tools along with pros/cons of each.

Of course you are right, high $$$ quality equipment will let you get away with a lot of things. Equipment race? ....O.L.

[boltgun71]

I'm not knocking that the sling is better than the magazine for support and rapid fire, I wholly agree with you, but what I was pointing out is that it does NOT cause mafunctions.  Thats a myth that has been disproven multiple times over and over.  I just dont want people reading on a open forum that is causes malfunctions and not knowing any better and believing it, when with the AR it doesn't.   

Its not so much a gear race either.  All you need is a decent mag like USGI ones, PMAG's, or an equivlent, none of which are expensive and all happen to be the most common available.  Looking at my most recent Cheaper Than Dirt catalog, used USGI mags sell for $11.95 and the cheapest off brand 30rd mags sell for the exact same price.  There is no reason to not get whats already a proven magazine nowadays.  The surplus market is flooded with them.  If you have a reciever that allows to much slop and causes a mag to tilt and cause a malfunction, it is out of spec, regardless of how much you paid or not, and you need a new one.  In-spec recievers can be bought now for as low as $50.  Its not a gear race at all or a issue of money.

[Justsomedude]

Boltgun,

What about pulling into the back of the Mag?
That's what the Marine Field Manual was warning against.
I think it was from '99 or 2000

Lots of info in that manual.

[Justsomedude]

MCRP 3-01A
Lots of the PDFs online are missing the photos.
http://ofp.umbr.net/Other/milpubs/Rifle%20Marksmanship%20%20%20(MCRP%203-01A).pdf

[wcmartin1]

Don't sweat it.

Just use the 20-round straight mags and be done with it.

[slim]

Don't sweat it.

Just use the 20-round straight mags and be done with it.

But then I only have 20 shots!

[Sly223]

Sorry Wrong shooter
Jeff,
do not listen to the one's telling you to monopod.
After I have spent the last few events getting you and Zack not to monopod off of your mags!
Get the twenty rounder,for your transitions,use the thirty for standing.
Twenty hits are formidable,if you feel the need for 10 more rounds load another mag.
Also, remember, a rifleman would never worry about the mag capacity!
Also notice the bad advise was given as a non-Appleseed situation.
Fellow instructors Please remember that if you do not teach it on the AS line than don't do it on this thread.
I now can look forward to a challenge,on the line at my next event trying to undo,possible habits picked up between events.
Sir, there are already body geometry issues we are woking around.
I can not tell you what you want to hear but with a teachable attitude,going off of the progress already made, at your next event,I will show you,what you want to see!
I was confused and got the screen names and the faces mixed up!
I still stand behind my advise as it would not change no matter who was needing to be addressed.

[Nickle]

Well, lots of opinions here.

I'm not a fan of using the magazine as a monopod. That said, I'm an older guy, spent many years in the service, and remember when it did cause malfunctions. The troops now find it easier to get decent mags (the quality standard and supply has improved). Personally, I find it a bad habit, at a minimum. I prefer they learn how to shoot correctly, then they can use the mag as a support.

Most of the competition shooters use 20 round mags, some even 10 rd mags. When you're shooting a 10 rd course of fire that requires a mag change, it doesn't hurt.

Now, you pro0bably won't get your elbow directly underneath the rifle. What you do is get it as close as you can, and live with it.

I'll echo the same thing others have said. Want to get good with your AR (or any other rifle)?

Practice, practice, practice.

Dry fire frequently, shoot live ammo when you can. Both are required to get there. Practice with a partner.

If you're lucky, your wife or girlfriend is a fellow shooter. If not, find out if she's interested. Take her shooting. Make sure it's a fun session, to get her interested.

[Spartan]

Your original question" How do you approach shooting with an AR?"  and
"But their Arm positioning is more of the "Arms as a BiPod" structure and not about getting the Support arm under the Rifle.
Like you have surmised this depends on the type of shooting we are doing.
1. If you are on a movement in a Military Combat Operation and do not have your loop sling on and are concerned with speed and 4 MOA hit counts target at 200-300 yards then for me I would have no problem using the monopod magazine or the hasty sling and the Bipod"biathlon" type prone position.  Speed and lower to the ground signature are enhanced with the Bipod arms or the magazine.  Advantages are speed, lower to the ground, and possibly accuracy-If you have adrenalin rushing in you and you torque the heck out of an AR on the sling with NO free float tube on the barrel you will definately not hit your POI. The barrel will flex (on an AR with no free float tube) and that is the advantage of the magazine mono-pod as it does not touch the barrel and does not flex the barrel.  You would not want to be on your belly in that position for long as you cannot breath as well laying flat on your tummy for long periods of time..  with the light recoil of the AR, you can get away with having a position that does not recoil like most other center fire rifles recoil.  ( I could not do that with an M14, M1 Garand etc) and the sling is attached differently)
2. If i have time to put on my Loop sling and will be there for more than 30 seconds and am concerned about 1 MOA accuracy and the shot is greater than 350 yards I would definately use the traditional prone position, loop sling, check wind, estimate range, put my comeups on-I do have a CMP free float tube on my AR barrel-and I put alot of tension on the sling with my arm under the rifle. 
3.  Like everyone else says....practice, practice practice.  Dry fire, " snapping in around the 55 gallon drums", and more practice.  You could get the .22 adapter for your AR or get a good Model 1 sales dedicated .22LR upper and put on your AR and practice alot at 25 yards-UNLIKE MY 223/ 5.56 upper  - The .22 UPPER will not work in the magazine monopod and practice in alot of differnt conditions.  Hooah and OORAH

[Roland]

I have a sort of policy question here. Is it legal to place the 20rd mag on your arm as you have the arm under the rifle? Because using that, combined with a tactical sling, enabled me to get 3MOA last weekend shooting on my own. That seems to work better then just using the sling or a mag monopod alone.

Roland

[Justsomedude]

Spartan,

Makes sense.
Lower and Faster.
I can also see where they would only want to teach it one way (arm position) rather than "if you have time and don't mind being up higher off the ground and aren't using a 30 round mag then try to get your support arm under the rifle...."

[AZRedhawk44]

Yep, I've only taught a few dozen just the opposite. I was trying to find the thread were the AZ AS instructors KICKED the mil and LE's tail in the SDM competitions where they were using a sling/Appleseed techniques while they (mil/le) were using the mags as a mono pod. Ain't good for maintaining NPOA for rapid fire. Don't get me wrong, more tools in the tool box the better but give the ALL the tools along with pros/cons of each.

Of course you are right, high $$$ quality equipment will let you get away with a lot of things. Equipment race? ....O.L.

That was the 2011 Arizona "All Weapons Weekend" or the Desert Warrior Sustainment Exercise.

We'll have a writeup in the next couple days for the 2012 one which we just participated in, this last weekend.

Lots of monopoding.  Not a lot of slinging.  Didn't see a lot of monopoder shooters in the top 25% of rankings.

However... the guys with "Governor's Dozen" patches are slinging.  Just sayin'.   

[slim]

Fellow instructors Please remember that if you do not teach it on the AS line than don't do it on this thread.

The question was in reference to the Marines Manual and the differences between what they instruct and what we instruct. 

We had a Marine instruct us "after hours" at the IBC recently. He showed us some "non-AS" stuff and it was pretty good. We wouldn't teach that out on the line, but for a tool in the toolbox, it was pretty good. Most people can't get their arm under a 30rd. magazine. So, if you can get it as close as possible and still have a good, snug sling, you'll be both "Appleseed good" and "USMC good."