Reloading for the .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO

[wcmartin1]

I believe there's some smallbase die thoughts and experiences posted earlier in this thread.

[Redwolf]

Redwolf,

plenty of options out there for small base full length.  I personally use the RCBS Xdie

http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?search_keywords=308+small+base&category_selector=all_products

Todd

Thanks to all and Thank jrturbo
I did a search and did not see any thing on small base dies. May be I should have tried a couple of different phrases.  However, in my search at another forum I did find that small base dies are the ticket for reloading of semi-auto's. Especially if the chamber is close tolerance. These dies bring the brass back closer to the factory spec. Midway carries them and I plan to get one on order.

[wcmartin1]

Sorry, Redwolf, it was in this thread:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=874.0

It's on the second or third page, but there is a bunch of good info starting on page one.

Hell, there's a tons of good info in the whole Reloading section for light reading in your spare time.

[Redwolf]

Thanks wcmartin1, your right, good stuff. I have one on order and hope it will be here by Friday. I need to get some loading done for  Ramseur in Feb.

[Redwolf]

I received the 308 RCBS small base sizing die Friday and loaded up a few rounds today. They worked like a champ. Thanks for the help.

[RePete]

FYI - Here is an eMail I sent to Alliant Powder and their response:

To: alliant.reloading@atk.com
Subject: Reloader 15 and 7.62 MM, Ball Special, M118: Long Range
X-Attachments: D:\Documents\GunStuff\TM 43-0001-27 7_62 NATO[M118LR].pdf;

According to your information about Reloader 15 (which I have used for years in several rifles) it is the powder that was "Selected as the powder for U.S. Military's M118 special ball long range sniper round."

Looking at the Army Ammunition Data Sheets (TM 43-0001-27) it lists the propellent as "WC 750".  Is this Reloader 15?  I would like to safely duplicate this load and would appreciate any information or load data that you can provide.

I am attaching the data sheet for your convenience.  Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.  Should you have any questions or require additional information, please advise.


And their response:

"I am not sure what the military calls our RL 15, but I have been told in the past that 44 grs was the charge.  We do not give this information out because that charge exceeds the amount recommended in the Sierra manual with their 175 gr bullet and RL 15.  According to Sierra they start with 35.8 grs @ 2200 fps and the max is 41.3 grs @ 2600 fps.  I recommend that you use the Sierra data.  Thanks for your interest in contacting us and let me know if you have any additional questions.  Have a nice day."

I think I will buy a box of loaded M118LR (expensive - $30/20 rounds) to see if my rifle (M1A Standard/Loaded/Stainless/Synthetic) likes this load as well or better than my 168 grain load (168 gr. SMK/41.5 gr. H4895) before I proceed.  This rifle has a 1 in 11" twist with 6 groove rifling.  I have heard that 6 groove rifling likes 168's better than 175's and the 1 in 11" may not stabilize 175's as well as 1 in 10" but I will have to find out for myself.

I have had success with 42 grs. of Reloader 15 and 165 gr. Nosler BT that I used in this rifle to take a whitetail buck last year and it was accurate (4/5 hits on 500 yard steel silhouette in failing light [dusk] from prone w/sling), but I have heard that this powder may be slightly slow for this action.

In addition, Nickle, thanks for your thoughts on this matter yesterday as follows:

"Well, checking Alliant's website, they show 42.8 to 45.5 gr  max loads with 168/165 grain Sierra's and 44 gr for the 180 Speer bullets. I saw what they say about RL-15 being the powder. Yeah, I'd use it, and start low, then work up. An alternative is to make M852 Match, rather than M118LR. Use 42 gr of 4895 and the Sierra 168 gr bullet. I'm real partial to this load, and up to 600 yards, it should work well. Past 600, you're going to want the 175 gr or heavier bullet."

Final Note: 

I am not condoning the use of the loads listed above in your rifle, I am only sharing my experience and thoughts using these components.  This information and data may vary considerably depending on many factors, including the components used, component assembly, the type of firearm used, reloading techniques, safety precautions practiced, etc. 

The individual accessing this site assumes the risk of safe loading practices. Failure to do so could result in severe personal injury (or death) and/or property damage.

When Alliant first got the contract to supply RL15 for the new sniper round, the load was published on their web site, along with the usual caveat.  It stated that the load is about 1.5gr over charge from SAAMI specs for the .308.  It was over 44gr.

I chrono'd some '03 M118LR (listed at 2700fps) against the load that was listed, except I used once fired Norma brass (which was 8gr lighter than the LC).

LC M118LR '03 averaged at 2650fps.

The reload averaged at 2699fps.

These loads were fired from a PGWDTI Coyote.



I won't publish this load.  If you want it, PM only.

I don't recommend this load for the M14 series of rifles.

[wcmartin1]

RePete,

Nice stick.  Is that an M14 mag in it?

[MrBill]

I too am a recovering Bench Rest competitor, but only because our local San Gabriel range has closed and I'm too lazy to drive to Viselia. 

That said, reading the information about military brass having such thick necks (there is a joke there somewhere, but I digress) has anyone tried the Redding or Forester dies with neck bushings and a carbide expander.  I am not suggesting to neck turn (a neurosis best left for bolt guns), just to adjust the amount of resizing to the type of brass being used to not work it too much.

Also has anyone had experience with the Gracey trimmer?  Anything that I can do to reduce case prep time seems like a good thing to me.

Cheers

[Redwolf]

I have used RL15 for loads with 175 and 180 Sierra Matchkings with great results.
41 to 43g's
Brass both commercial and surplus.
High 26-- / low 27-- fps
DPMS LR308, 24 stainless.

I have also used Varget using the same loads with great results. The Varget seems to burn a little cleaner for me.
This stick really likes the 180 at 600+ yds.  The 180 is also good in high cross winds too.
I have tried the 168 Sierra and they worked good but can get push off a fair amount in cross winds. For one reason or another, 168's would key hole at 600+ yd. May be one in every 20 to 30 rounds not sure why they become unstable.
These loads have also been use in my FAL and they do a ok job. I have only tested out to 300yds using iron sights. The plans are to mount a scope and bench it to find out what it can do.   

[paintballdude902]

can some one give me a load for 7.62 for my enfield

the only powder i have on hand for rifles right now is win 748

ive been doing 43 gr for a 150gr soft point

[Old Dog]

Take a look here.  Your rifle is different than other rifles (even ones of the same type) so you need to start below the maximum load listed and work your way up till you get an accurate load.  Accuracy is more important than velocity.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Starting low means 10%, or about 4 grains.  Watch the primers for signs of pressure.  When they start to flatten out around the edges where they meet the brass of the primer pocket.  Sometimes you'll see the primer start to get a ridge around the spot where the firing pin dimpled it - but that can also be an enlarged hole in the bolt face, so watch the edges, too.

[kissell]

Got a strange question to you gun guru's out there. I've picked up bulk 150gr. fmj boattail 30 cal at a good price thru Midway. I know most 30 cal will interchange to a degree, so my M1a-M1garand will share this, but my 30.30 is questionable at this moment. I tried setting the  bullet oglive to end of cartidge spacing to match that of a factory 30.30 load which caused it not to eject unfired. By setting it up shorter, it did eject properly but I feel I may be holding it a little back on the riflings. These rounds grouped 2.5" at 50 yds. first try with  an unsteady rest. I will try a better rest and see results. NOTE--- This loading is strictly a single shot function specialty load.You must load these one at a time directly into the chamber for single fire. Loading the rifle's tube can and most likely will cause a discharge of a round in the tube upon firing your first shot!!!! I'm merely picking the brains of you to see if any have experimented in this concept.

[wcmartin1]

Got a strange question to you gun guru's out there. I've picked up bulk 150gr. fmj boattail 30 cal at a good price thru Midway. I know most 30 cal will interchange to a degree, so my M1a-M1garand will share this, but my 30.30 is questionable at this moment. I tried setting the  bullet oglive to end of cartidge spacing to match that of a factory 30.30 load which caused it not to eject unfired. By setting it up shorter, it did eject properly but I feel I may be holding it a little back on the riflings. These rounds grouped 2.5" at 50 yds. first try with  an unsteady rest. I will try a better rest and see results. NOTE--- This loading is strictly a single shot function specialty load.You must load these one at a time directly into the chamber for single fire. Loading the rifle's tube can and most likely will cause a discharge of a round in the tube upon firing your first shot!!!! I'm merely picking the brains of you to see if any have experimented in this concept.

If you're single loading anyway, the fact that they don't eject exactly right does not seem to be that big of an issue to me - single loading/single ejecting.

You're trying to go for accuracy so either load them shorter than normal where they'll eject properly in your rifle (and they'll jump to the lands) while experimenting with different powder charges until you find the sweet spot and/or load them longer (closer to the lands) until you find the optimum length for a particular load.

FWIW, I load standard 30/30 Remington CoreLokt bullets with a near max load of RE15 in my Marlin 336 and they group fairly well (2-3 moa with irons).  I don't feel underpowered hunting deer up to ~ 200 yards with this load. 

I know it's fun to experiment, but don't try to make 30/30 into .308, Sir.  Good luck.

Edited to add:  BTW - thanks for bringing the 30/30 up.  I ain't shot the ol' gal in a while.  Sounds like fun.  Gonna hafta break 'er out. 

[Old Dog]

Do they load into the magazine and work through the action to the chamber?  If so, load 2, work the lever and you now have two quick shots, one in the chamber and one in the magazine (2's better than 1).

Distance the bullet "jumps" before it contacts the rifling can affect accuracy according to the match shooters.  Don't know if you could tell any effect on a lever gun or not when shot under less than steady conditions.

Seating the bullet deeper does reduce case capacity resulting in an increase in pressure unless the powder is reduced.  Watch those primers.  I'm not sure what a 30.30 is good for pressure wise vs. a .308 or 30.06 so it may be too much pressure for the action before it begins to affect primer appearance as it would in a .308 or 30.06.

[kissell]

 Thanks for the advice! I've shot 6 loads with no sign of pressure related problems. Primers look good, cases look good and eject smoothly. Was concerned with case capacity upon viewing a 32.5 gr load of IMR4064, so I reduced it to 32.0. Sure it slowed it down a bit, but, better safe than sorry. Will work on some more detailed loading soon. Hope to get a little better grouping with these FMJ's than the old flatnoses. Could go with high dollar bullets and acheive this, but we need to learn how to improvise and apply what we have. That gets the most out of what we have.


"A free people rule thier government, while an oppressed people are ruled by thier government"

[Old Dog]

Not trying to give you a hard time about your rifle here, but most 30-30's are built for MOD (minute of deer) shooting.  The cartridge, power wise and usual use wise, is an acceptable 150 to 200 yd. cartridge.  I've seen some that did good to hit a 3 lb. coffer can at 100 yds., from a rested position.

The more expensive bullets (I assume you are talking about match bullets) might make a little difference in your groups but probably not much.  The issues of bolt lock up and squareness to the chamber (probably minor at this point), fore end and barrel band pressure on the barrel, lack of a sling or the effect of the sling (mounting method), the sights, etc.

You didn't say what you own but for what it's worth I think the Marlin's have a better reputation for accuracy than the Winchesters.  You know, have you thought about casting bullets?  The 30-30 velocities are about right for hard cast bullets with gas checks.  It's not so much the shape of the bullet that affects longer range accuracy (velocity, yes).  Around the turn of the century the best shots of that time were able to shoot 10 shot groups of around 12" at 1000 yds. - with black powder and lead round nosed bullets.  Trajectory was like indirect fire, but the groups were great.

Don't interpret any of the above as advice to give up.  It's just info to keep in mind.  If you don't pursue it yourself you won't learn as much as you will from just listening to advice and who knows, you might find a way to really improve the accuracy of that old rifle.

Good luck with it.  And have fun, too.

[Dirty Bill]

I don't know how to make a new thread,so I'll put this here. I use varget in my M1-A reloads. The bullet I use is the sierra 2200 btjhp 168 grain. I have good success with that load. My question is what primer is preferred. I am using remington 9 1/2 large rifle.. I think it's 9 1/2..anyway,now primers aren't as easy to find,and I want to buy a large amount of primers,eg,5k..

Should I stay with the remington,or go to CCI ? Basically,does anyone have any trouble loading CCI primers..years ago,I had problems with them because they are with such a thick outer case,and I had some FTF in pistol cartridges. Thanks. 

[ashrn03]

I shoot both Remington 9-1/2's and Federal 210's in my 308 match ammo, with the 210's being the better of the two in my rifles.  CCI's were seldom seen on the line back when I shot high power with a 308.  Never asked why.

[RePete]

RePete,

Nice stick.  Is that an M14 mag in it?

Been of for longer than I realised.

No, it's an AI mag.  The same ones that are used by Badger Ordnance.

[VaWolf]

I am reloading for a M1A. I have read this whole thread twice and have some questions. I have tried the load from the attachment a few pages back 40.5 H4895 in mil brass, 168 gr Sierra MK, coal 2.8in, CCI BR primers and this is an excellent load. Once I get this rifle to fit me I would like to try some shooting at 1000yds. Does H4895 work well for the 175gr SMK or do I have to go slower? Not looking for smoking velocity, just safe long range accuracy out of my M1A. Also a question about primers. I read somewhere that Federal primers might be soft for the M1A which is why I bought the CCI primers. What is the best for the M1A? Thanks for any help...Tommy

[Old Dog]

Stick with the 4895 or Varget.  Going to slower burning powders (ideal for heavier bullets) is NOT ideal for the gas system on your M1A.  It will drive the pressure at the gas port into a range where damage to the gas system/op rod is likely.

[KodyJaret]

"Does H4895 work well for the 175gr SMK or do I have to go slower? Not looking for smoking velocity, just safe long range accuracy"


Powders w/ burn rate  between IMR3031 and IMR4320 are applicable for for gas auto rifles. Varget and either of the 4895s' will serve well.

Currently, R15 is very much in favor for use w/ the 175SMK. It is reported that this powder is used to load this bullet for the U.S. military LR 7.62X51 sniper/match load.

Everything I've come to understand regards loading for gas autos, especially op-rod designs, clearly indicates  that reloading for these beasts is not a good venue for re-inventing the wheel. Go w/ what has been established. Leave exprimenting to the ammo companies and the arsenals.

[wcmartin1]

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=277.msg5896#msg5896

and

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=277.msg9542#msg9542

[biathlon]

Reloader15 is indeed the powder for the M-118Long range load with the 175 grain Sierra boat tail match bullet BUT,,,     For anything beyond about 600 yards you'll need a faster twist barrel like 1/10 to really stabilize it out to 1000 or 1200 yards. That bullet flies best and groups best at about 2600 feet per second. Now, if you have a 1/12 twist barrel, the 168s work best inside 500 yards with the 4895. My M1A loves 'em. Good luck finding any powder

[djones308sniper]

Accurate posts this load in their manual....40.5 gr - 46.5 gr load for a 168 gr. bullet using Accurate 2520 ..Does anyone have experience with this powder and how pleased were you with the results in a M1A (National Match Barrel)?    Using this powder, where was the performance satisfactory, in terms of the powder grains on a 168 gr. bullet, and the performance of the M1A, if any?  I know there may be other choices of a better suited powder but, I need to load what I have on hand, so please limit your experiences to this powder only for now..
Thank you,
David

[wcmartin1]

Accurate posts this load in their manual....40.5 gr - 46.5 gr load for a 168 gr. bullet using Accurate 2520 ..Does anyone have experience with this powder and how pleased were you with the results in a M1A (National Match Barrel)?    Using this powder, where was the performance satisfactory, in terms of the powder grains on a 168 gr. bullet, and the performance of the M1A, if any?  I know there may be other choices of a better suited powder but, I need to load what I have on hand, so please limit your experiences to this powder only for now..
Thank you,
David

The Sierra data I've got lists the starting load for this powder with a 168 gr MK as 36.9 gr and a max load of 42.2 gr.  If it was me, I would load twenty rounds with a COL of 2.80",  five different charges, four bullets each charge starting at 40.0 gr and increasing in .5 gr increments until I reached 42.0 gr.  Four-shot groups shooting from a bench while watching group size and looking for pressure signs (I don't shoot from a bench other than for load development) you should be able to find the sweet spot in there somewhere. 

Make sure you full-length resize and check your cases with a gauge before shooting in your M1A.  Good luck, Sir.

[MrBill]

44.2 gr Reloader 15 and a 168gr Sierra Match Kings give me nice 3 shot one ragged hole groups at 100 yd with my AR10-T off a bench with windflags to eliminate the wind variable.  Opens up to a 4 and 1 when trying 5 shot groups though.

I have a bunch of loads ready to go with 2520, but haven't had the time to go to the range to sort out what works with that powder.

BTW the best metering powder I have ever used is Reloader 15 bar none.  I know that the best accuracy loads in the 6.5 x 47 Lapua use Reloader 15, and I'm beginning to suspect it is partly due to how well it meters.

Cheers

[Camljr]

Does anyone out there have a M1A load for the 150 grain Barnes TSX all copper projectile?

Preferably from the Barnes reloading manual, but a tested load for Gas operated rifles would work...

Thanks in advance...
Cameron

[Camljr]

btt

[FourIze]

New question:

I've seen several mentions of Accurate 2520.  Does anyone have experience with Accurate 2495??  My understanding (from the PDF attached earlier) is that it is very similar to H4895 or IMR4895.  I'm just getting interested in reloading and can't find H4895 or IMR4895, but did find some 2495.  I'm thinking about working up some loads with the following:  once-fired LC brass, CCI #34 primers, Accurate 2495 and some 147-150 grain bullets (haven't pulled and weighed them yet) I plan to pull from some '69 Czech loads that are loose in the cases.  I don't really want to shoot the Czech stuff in my M1A because 1) I'm not sure how it was stored and, 2) it's corrosive, so I figured I'd just pull the bullets and make some fresh loads.  These loads are basically for the field shoots out to 500 yds at Ramseur.

Any thoughts??