Reloading for the .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO

[Nickle]

Not that specific load, but, I've used those bullets, and they are good. You get some fairly high velocities from them, but, the Ballistic Coefficient isn't real good, so they peter out fairly quick.

[ax238]

Due to money not growing on trees, thanks to Nickle's advise, I have purchased a 700.  Can we talk about consistent, accurate powder, bullet combinations with milsurp brass?  I have some SA and Paki that I plan on using to reload with and want to set aside some

1.  Elk ammo
2.  possible M118LR?  or possible variant

for my new bolt gun.  As this is a factory gun, and due to a soon coming job loss of very good pay it will stay that way.  I plan on practising within the confines of 600 yds with it.  (not Elk hunting shooting)  Should I follow the here given .pdf s  posted and use.  Will these work well in mil surp brass?

[Joe]

ax238

Consider these loads MAXIMUM until proven otherwise. Some seem a little hot to me.

A)Military brass is typically thicker than commercial and can have up to 10% less case capacity. Less case capacity means higher pressures for the same amount of powder.

B) With the exception of the military equivalent loads, most of these loads seem to be built for custom guns with tighter match chambers. These can take higher pressures than standard commercial chambers when loaded carefully by very knowledgeable reloaders.

C) M118LR uses the Sierra 175gr MK.

D) Most non-dangerous game loads in 30 cal. use traditional 150-180gr soft point hunting bullets. For elk, I think I'd stick to the 180's although 165's would work well with good  bullet placement.

If you use them get a good reloading book (Sierra, RCBS, Lyman)and read and re-read the parts on over pressure signs and determination. Don't cut corners on the reloading process. Check your case lengths. Too long can boost pressures radically.Then start your loading 10% BELOW the powder charges listed here and work up carefully. Typically loads that are a bit less than maximum will shoot more accurately than those at maximum. As a side note, usually barrel wear accelerates rapidly when you start pushing velocities over 3000fps.

[KodyJaret]

quote by ax238 : "I have some SA and Paki that I plan on using to reload with and want to set aside some "

You may not know,,,that brass is Berdan.

[Atlas Shrug]

ax238,

Given your parameters, consider using this approach:

-165 Sierra GK for your elk load
-168 Sierra MK for your "M118LR" load

Yes, I know that M118LR uses the 175, but if you want to simplify your loading process and your shots will not be (much) past 600 yards with the "match" load, then the 168s will get you there and have similar* loads and trajectories compared to the 165s.  It might be the best choice to have your rifle ready for either role without having to reconfirm trajectory data, scope settings, etc.  Right now there is no close equivalent hunting bullet to the 175 SMK that I'm aware of.

* obviously, develop each load separately for each bullet.  However you should end up with very similar set up for these two bullets from all reports.

[Old Dog]

Since this is in a BA rifle you will not be limited to the powders traditionally suggested for M1A/M1 reloads (medium burning rates.)  I liked IMR 4350 powder in my M1A (much to slow of a burning rate - cracked my op rod - twice).  I got good velocity, great accuracy and lower peak pressures than I could with the recommended M1A type powders.

The slower burning powders fill the case better (takes more powder) but that is not a bad thing.  If you get the opportunity try a slower burning powder in your model 700 - remember to stick to the same advice about reducing powder charges when you start and then work your way up.

Remember that in most guns the highest velocity is not the best accuracy and the best accuracy can be 200 to 400 fps. below the highest velocity.

As you work your loads up watch the primers for signs of high pressure.  The primer will begin to flatten around the edges where it meets the primer pocket (that nice little rounded corner you see on the new primers/shells where the primer edge meets the pocket begins to disapper and get reall "square" on the edge).  Worse than that is when the primer gets a little raised edge around the firing pin indention when the excess pressure start to try to push primer metal back into the firing pin hole in the bolt.  I've seen this problem on new S&W revolvers that had defective nose pin bushings as well but you M700 should be alright.

Also, in a .308 there's no need for magnum primers (burn hotter, can increase pressure and may negatively affect accuracy when used in a cartridge that doesn't need them).

Wouldn't expect you'd need to "crimp" the case mouth around your bullets either.  Some folks are really raving about the Lee taper crimp dies but I haven't used them yet.

[wcmartin1]

In a bolt-action definitely try RE15 or Varget with 165's.  You'll like 'em. (Killed many critters and a whole bunch of paper using these in .308 and 30-06)

I like the Lee "Factory Crimp" die, also.  With a consistent light crimp from this die it will almost do as well as neck turning for maintaining consistent round to round starting pressure. 

And I really hesistate to tell this next part as it's hard to talk about your own mistakes, but...

This die can also help you reduce the main problem associated with a squib load (stuck bullet in barrel, KB, etc.) by retaining the bullet in the case (click...oh, $h*t, what the...?).  Yeah, this happend to me ONCE about six months ago during a rapid-fire string (pulled the bullet after I stopped shaking and guess what wasn't there).  After thousands of reloads one slipped through and it is scary to think of what could have happened.

And, although I checked before, I definitely double-check my charged cases in the block before seating bullets now.

[Nickle]

ax238,

Given your parameters, consider using this approach:

-165 Sierra GK for your elk load
-168 Sierra MK for your "M118LR" load

Yes, I know that M118LR uses the 175, but if you want to simplify your loading process and your shots will not be (much) past 600 yards with the "match" load, then the 168s will get you there and have similar* loads and trajectories compared to the 165s.  It might be the best choice to have your rifle ready for either role without having to reconfirm trajectory data, scope settings, etc.  Right now there is no close equivalent hunting bullet to the 175 SMK that I'm aware of.

* obviously, develop each load separately for each bullet.  However you should end up with very similar set up for these two bullets from all reports.

I've seen what the 165 Sierra Hollow Point Game King does to a 575 lb moose (by a friend, but it was my ammo), and I'm glad I started using it. You'll get a load that's equivalent to the M852 Match load. The M852 uses the 168 Sierra, and is VERY accurate.

[ax238]

has anyone on this forum loaded this in their hunting load for .308?

this stuff looks pretty aggressive on the barnes website
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=256208&t=11082005

Ax

[wcmartin1]

has anyone on this forum loaded this in their hunting load for .308?

this stuff looks pretty aggressive on the barnes website
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=256208&t=11082005

Ax

I haven't loaded them as I don't see that it's necessary with the relatively slow (although perfectly adequate) velocity of the .308 and 30-06 (I like 165 gr. Sierra GameKings, Hornady SSTs, and Nosler Ballistic Tips for hunting with these calibers), but I have a friend that swears by them in 300 Weatherby as they are definitely tough and very accurate in his rifle.

If you are hunting elk, they may have an advantage in .308, but the others I mentioned will get 'er done.

Whatever you do, you must have confidence in your hunting load, and if that's what it takes for you - GO FOR IT!

Good luck, Sir.

[Oohrah]

   I loaded it, but it was in the 30-06.   Bullet functioned beautiful,
but could not get the accuracy that I wanted.   Would not condem
it, as it may work top notch in another rifle.

[ax238]

Oohrah

what type of case and powder did you use?  Primer?  What did you gather was the cause for the mal-perfomance?  The reason I was asking is that I was thinking either this round or Barnes Triple Shock bullet as well.  I may save some serious money and just stick with the recommended Sierra bullets that the guys in the thread have suggested.

Ax

[Nickle]

I think that Barnes bullet is kind of pricey, and more than what's needed.

I am partial to the Sierra 165 gr Hollow Points Game King bullet and the 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. I'm sure the Hornady would be as good as the Nosler, but when I got them, the Nosler was available. Short notice (2 to 3 days) and the Noslers were local.

[Redwolf]

Ax238 I have used the Sierra Game King to bring down both deer and bear in a 308. with no problems. The shots were out to 175 yd. all clean one shot take downs. These were loaded with Varget and/or RL 15, standard ICC primer.  I'm sure that Nosler, Speeder or Barnes make fine bullets too but I have not taken down any game with them.

[Santander]

Question about primers:
I've got a bunch of CCI #34 primers left over. I was wondering if these would be any good for accuracy shooting with a bolt gun.
I bought them for loading for the M1A. My understanding is that they are supposed to be harder but that they may be less consistent than other primers. 
Has anyone here had any experience (positive or negative) with these primers affecting accuracy?

[wcmartin1]

These are equivalent to their magnum primers so you may have to reduce your load depending on your application.  They are not as consistent as benchrest primers, but they are fairly accurate.  I'd use them. 

If you don't find that they are meeting your needs, I'll be glad to help you out and take them off your hands.

[Oohrah]

Ax, the bullet worked  just like it should, except I found the Sierra were
much more accurate.   Although expansion was a little different, adequate
at long range and might not be quite so controled (little more expansion
close up and higher velocity).   The accuracy thing is most likely that
particular barrel thought it liked the Sierra better.   Used Commercial
Winchester cases with 4350 with some stiff but not especially hot,(used some
4831, but a touch better with the 4350} primers standard CCI.   A friend
put down an average Muley with 2900 fps with a side to side leaving a
half dollar sized exit.   I would think it would shine on heavy bodies like
elk and larger.    Like Nickle pretty much favor Sierra's for accuracy as they
do  well in most everything I own.   My mind could well change as I started
using Hornady stuff,and Noslers in 223 calibers.   A Ruger 77/22 Hornet eats
a 1" bull @100 yards with ten rounds using VMax.   Good report on AMax.   
All rifles seem to have a sweet spot for differing bullets, combinations of pow-
der and primers

[Old Dog]

You sure are right about different rifles "liking" different loads.  I have my father in laws Rem. 742 in 30.06.  Thirty years ago he wouldn't have a rifle that he couldn't shoot less than quarter sized groups 25 yards with factory ammo.  The rifle I have was the third one they pulled off the shelf for him that day.  He would buy them, take them home, shoot'em and if they didn't shoot to suit him with Rem. 180 grn. corelokts he took it back and they "traded" even up for the one on the rack next to it.  All brand new 742's on the rack but some shot better than others.

It's the same with other rifles as well.  That's part of the fun of reloading.  Learning what load shoots best in your rifle.

[kool aid]

Okey- enough with the lurking (that would be MY lurking)

Happy to report I got my Dillon full length resizer (carbide) back from the grinding shop today.

25 thou off the breech end.

Why, you might ask.

Since it is carbide, had to be ground with a diamond wheel. I had to take a load of carbide tools in for regrind anyway.......

I have had to be ruthless with that case guage. I have found that my 2.5 over minimum chamber in 'sweet jane' (much beloved smith enterprises M1A I have written about elsewhere on here)  is a little fussy about my reloads being too long. So my reject rate is running anywhere from 20 to 40 percent.

And I reguage early and often. Half my bench is a dedicated turret press for sizing, trimming, deswedging and priming (Dillon power trimmer/RCBS eight station turret/RCBS dedicated primier gizmo, and a Super swedge.

Other side is a Dillon 550B.

all on a table that measures 36" by 24", that I can work from either side....

Infact, I spend most of my reloading effort on case prep. Once I sit down to load at the progressive, it is almost anticlimactic.....

I have bags and bags of out of spec brass that I resized and trimmed already. Little black 'x' on the side of the case for 'reject'. My local Wizard advised me on the fix.....

Sat down with a sample of said rejects, lube, guage, turret press et al: Dialed the die down all the way and sized a case. NFG- fell in way past the minimum. Back it out half a turn. Another case. Almost there- still past minimum.

Final adjustment and now each and every case is good to go. 

I get all quivery just thinking about it.

Hopefull that this might help someone else...

See 'yall on the appleseed trail next year.

[Old Dog]

Wow, never had any such issue with my SA M1A.  It seems to "eat" everything.

I may be wrong but it sounds like once you "make at case" for sweet jane you should keep it for sweet jane or you will be really shortening the life of the case due to the differences in how much the case has to be squeezed down to fit that particular rifle.  I have an old US Enfield with just the opposite problem.  The cases are so long after firing that if I neck size only they don't work in other rifles. 

Good luck with your new sizer.

[Francis Marion]

...
I have had to be ruthless with that case guage. I have found that my 2.5 over minimum chamber in 'sweet jane' (much beloved smith enterprises M1A I have written about elsewhere on here)  is a little fussy about my reloads being too long. So my reject rate is running anywhere from 20 to 40 percent.
...

Not being familiar with case size gages ... 2.5 whats?  thousandths of an inch?
Also, you might epoxy a shim something <0.025" to the bottom of the die that way you have a shell holder/die hard stop regulating the distance the casing is pushed into the die, rather than some other more remote and perhaps more variable stop.   

[kool aid]

there is a 'zero' head space- the absoute minimum (1.630 I think). a 'go' guage is usually five over that, and a 'field' guage is usually seven over that.

So I disassemble my bolt and put it back in the action, and then I go to the set of custom guages that range from zero (absolute minimum) all the way up past the field guage (the one that tells you you have a small ied instead of a rifle). There are even half sizes in that particular set.

I guage sequentilly from smallest to largest until I find the top limit of what it will close on (usually between three and four). For reasons we will not get into here, the tighter your chamber is (on a bolt gun at least), the more accruacy you can wring out of your stick. On a gas gun, the trade off is that if the chamber is too tight, the case isn't done expanding while the bolt is cycling, and you end up with extraction problems.

And for the record, sweet jane digests ANYTHING I have put through it that is mil surp.

Anyway, my new sizing die is shortened so I can fall within the minimum AND maximum case length. I determin this by using a case guage, which is just a hunk of metal that has a chamber cut into it, and the ends are flat. there are grooves cut in the breech and muzzle end of it. the bottom of those grooves represents the 'minimum' and the outer serface is the maximum.

so I put my prepped case into the guage, and I use my fingernail over the ends of the guage. if I feel any metal sticking above, it goes into the 'reject' can. same goes if it falls past the minimum, it goes into another can which is 'scrap'.

Hope that clarifies. I love this stuff. Just the kind of OCD activity that keeps me out of trouble....

[LabRat]

Hope that clarifies. I love this stuff. Just the kind of OCD activity that keeps me out of trouble....

You too? I thought I was the only one! Sitting there in the garage annealing cases one at a time with a MAPP torch, LOL. OCD fer sure. I do the fingernail trick also. Not exactly a precision measuring instrument, but hey, it works.

[Old Dog]

You don't mention trimming to length.  How do you know the shoulder bottoms out vs. the neck hitting the bottom?  Or is the hole the size of the neck so the only thing that touches inside is the shoulder? 

It just seems these days folks go to a lot of trouble I didn't go to (I did some things most folks don't today) so maybe it all works out.

If the brass all goes through the same die set up the same how can some be longer than others (unless its the neck)?

You say you had to have the sizer die shortened at the base?  What brand of die do you use?  I have Pacific and Lee and neither sizing die touches the shell holder at full upstroke of the press.

I made sure I had a case (or two) fired from my M1A.  I adjusted the resizing die (a little at a time) till it left a small dark ring of  resizing lub at the point where the neck and the shoulder meet.  I never had an issue with  chambering even though the case is not truly "full length resized".

I have a couple of other .308's to reload for now and I'll get to see if they can "digest" the loads I make for my rifle.

Have a good one.  See you at an Appleseed some day.

[Francis Marion]

...
Hope that clarifies. I love this stuff. Just the kind of OCD activity that keeps me out of trouble....
...

I have found a certain six-step program to be helpful for this type of OCD.
First, you sling-up into position and align the sights...

[Nickle]

I used to have OCD, I was a Bench Rest competitor. Gives OCD a whole new meaning.

I eventually got broke of it, and only shoot that way for fun once in a great while. Other than that, it's position shooting for me.

Thanks Fred, for helping me beat OCD.

[wcmartin1]

I don't know about OCD (anal may describe it better  ), but I do enjoy experimenting with the whole reloading process. 

It relaxes me and is almost as much fun as shooting. (yeah, almost)

[kool aid]

You don't mention trimming to length.  How do you know the shoulder bottoms out vs. the neck hitting the bottom?  Or is the hole the size of the neck so the only thing that touches inside is the shoulder? 

It just seems these days folks go to a lot of trouble I didn't go to (I did some things most folks don't today) so maybe it all works out.

If the brass all goes through the same die set up the same how can some be longer than others (unless its the neck)?

You say you had to have the sizer die shortened at the base?  What brand of die do you use?  I have Pacific and Lee and neither sizing die touches the shell holder at full upstroke of the press.

I made sure I had a case (or two) fired from my M1A.  I adjusted the resizing die (a little at a time) till it left a small dark ring of  resizing lub at the point where the neck and the shoulder meet.  I never had an issue with  chambering even though the case is not truly "full length resized".

I have a couple of other .308's to reload for now and I'll get to see if they can "digest" the loads I make for my rifle.

Have a good one.  See you at an Appleseed some day.

I trim with a power trimmer on the turret head. sorry I didn't clarify.

The case guage is like a hollow tube with a chamber in it; it has minimum grooves on the muzzle end as well as at the breech end. Its called a forrester guage....

I am using the wazoo custom OCD special dillon full length carbide resize die.

Oh, and I don't have the bench in the garage..... I have it set up next to my bed

Yeah, that's right.

[wcmartin1]

"Oh, and I don't have the bench in the garage..... I have it set up next to my bed "

I love it, but just one question - is your wife jealous?

[scopeboy001]

reloading is meant for shotshells, anything that you can buy army surpluss and still have the same if not better results than your handloads is not worth reloading. although if anyone can figure out a hand load that would take enough windage out of the 22 hornet while still remaining ballistically safe contact me and i just might take back what i said.

congratulations nickle on kicking the habit