Reloading the .30-06

[artkat2]

Hi folks
I've been reading this thread top to bottom, it's pretty nice having the knowledge base that you guys have and are willing to share with people that are new to reloading. Now for my questions... If I'm understanding the previous posts correctly,
CCI #34, or Winchester would be my preferred primers for a Garand. I read the guys post about CCI benchrest primers, and another reply that said they were the same as standard CCI's with better QC. Does that mean CCI 200 will work as well? I've found so far that Federal 210 seem to work best with the two bolt actions I'm loading for now but I've not loaded for a semi auto yet.
   I think it was Old Dog that talked about launching his gas tube down range, so I don't think I'll be doing to much experimenting with powders. But what about bullet weight? Will a 135 grain jacketed boattail work?
  Thanks
     Andy

[eaglescouter]

Can you find an M1 specific load for that 135 grain boattail?

[artkat2]

  Negative, as far as my literature goes (which is pretty limited, Lyman's 49th and Lee.) I haven't looked online anywhere yet but if I did, with my experience level, I probably wouldn't look much farther than Hodgon's Data.

[eaglescouter]

Please start out by loading exactly by the book, and only with loads that are specifically designed for the M1 Garand.

I'll post a PDF document for you this evening.

[douglas34474]

May I bust a MYTH? There is no such thing as a HARD primer. Every one of them is drawn from dead soft annealed brass. Does not matter who makes them.

The difference between CCI #34 and standard primers is the sensitivity to firing pin impact. This is done by the priming compound and the placement of the anvil in the cup.

They are also magnum grade, as were all USGI primers used to load '06. The service wanted to make sure they would go off in cold weather. Also, ball powder is harder to touch off then extruded powder.

The only worry with loads for the Garand is the use the correct powder. The standard is IMR 4895. H-4895 and H-380 were also used. The Achilles heel of the Garand is the op rod. Use a slow burning powder and your gas port pressure will be too high. You may damage your op rod.

Use IMR 4895 and keep your loads to 2750 for a 150 g bullet and you will be fine.

The Garand was designed using 173g boat tail bullets at 2640 fps; M1 ball ammo. M2 with a 150 g bullet came after it was developed. John Garand worried that the reduced power of the M2 ball load would not provide enough power to reliably operate the rifle.

Hatcher reported at the end of WW2, not one M1 ever blew up. JCG tried to blow one up. He had to take the estimated pressure up to 125,000 CUP before he succeed. The M1 was the strongest US service rifle ever built.

As to a load for a 135g bullet for the Garand, none of my manuals list one. There was never a USGI load for a 135 g bullet.

[eaglescouter]

Reload data specific for the M1 Garand is attached:

[artkat2]

eaglescouter,
  Thanks for the advice and info. That is why I posted my questions here, I was pretty confident I would get some good data from people who actually have an interest in seeing others succeed.
  Another question; A previous post mentioned neck sizing. While I neck size cases for bolt action, everything I've read about semi auto's says to FL size every time.
Does this go along with the hard primer myth from above? (Thanks Douglass).
  By the way, have I mentioned what Appleseed means to me? To be able to talk with and learn from people that have very similar ideals to mine, as well as the emphasis on the American revolution and it's history. Until recently I had no idea that there were this many people out there that thought this way.
  Thanks Appleseeders!
Andy

[eaglescouter]

For a gas operated gun like the M1:

Full length resize every time
Trim cases to length every time
Do not deviate from the short list of suitable powders and loads without a very well understood reason.
Use Magnum primers (the free floating firing pin in the M1 is the reason for selection of the magnum primer to prevent slam fires and/or pierced primers)

[douglas34474]

I have used partial sizing (neck sizing) over 25 years, feeding two Garands. I have never had a problem with feeding from either gun.

For range pick ups, yes, I will FL size these; but only for the first reload. After the cartridges are shot in my rifle the brass is fire formed to my chamber and there is no need for FL sizing.

This is like the advise that you 'have' to use SMALL BASE dies for gas guns. I have never found the need for them shooting a Garand.

I would try it both ways, FL and Partial; see for yourself. It may surprise you.

[Old Dog]

Every gun is slightly different than the next.

What works for yours might not work for mine.

By the way, my M1A has a NM barrel (since new) and I've always "partially" resized my reloads for it.

And then you hear about those guys that need small base dies to get their reloads to chamber.

Every gun is slightly different than the next.

The advice to try different things is good.  It can work to your advantage in reloading as well as shooting.

Probably even when it comes to talking folks into going to Appleseeds.  What works for one person doesn't work for the next.

[James E]

  By the way, have I mentioned what Appleseed means to me? To be able to talk with and learn from people that have very similar ideals to mine, as well as the emphasis on the American revolution and it's history. Until recently I had no idea that there were this many people out there that thought this way.
  Thanks Appleseeders!
Andy

Hey Andy,

Just wait until you instruct at your first Appleseed.  You have no idea!

So dry-fire every day.  Persist.  Shoot the score, then accept step up.  You will increase your appreciation of Appleseed by 10 times.   Andy, having met you at the SLO Appleseed, and knowing your appreciation of history, I know that you would be an excellent instructor.

James E

[artkat2]

I have to say it again,
  The advice that you guys give, from all of your experience is beyond measure. While I will stick with eaglescouter's advice for now (FL resize, trim and follow the letter) when my experience level and competence grows this advice will find a place at my bench. Thanks again all.
  James E,
  I'll just keep applying the knowledge gained last time, and if next time your instruction bears fruit (actually it has, but the shooter still has to do his part!) I will be glad to join the ranks of the most devoted folks I've ever met.
  Btw, I got a hold of a copy of Paul Revere's Ride from the library, Outstanding!
Andy

[supersniper]

A case gage should be used when possible.  It will pick up many things that you may not see on casual inspection such as case neck bulges, dings in the rim and bulging from an overpressured case.  It may well save you the headache of a jam right in the middle of a rapid fire string.  You also get to inspect the primer as well.

Remember that there are no alibis in the "real world".  It has to work, all the time... every time.   

Why take a chance on your ammo if you have the opportunity to make it good the first time?  It a worthwhile investment.

[Nickle]

I have to agree with the case gage idea, and know that I have gages for every caliber I reload for mys own use.

Sure saves grief later, and it has helped me educate a good friend in the fine matters of reloading. He cranked out about 600 rounds of .30-06 Monday and Tuesday, about 250 for him, and 350 for me.

Much of that was cast bullet loads, 195 grain cast over 13 grains of 700X. Nice mild cheap load for short distance practice in my Springfields and Enfield.

[snake284]

I've finally gotten going on reloading for my Garand. I wasn't really set up for it as all of my 30-06 loading up to this point has been for two bolt sporting rifles, and a Springfield 03A3 and a 1917 Enfield. However, I'm finally getting things together. So far I've prepped a few cases, and waiting on my new powder Measure. I wanted a good solid measure as my RCBS varies as much as a grain between dumps. First off, I resized all my cases and cleaned the primer pockets with the little RCBS tool made for that purpose to get the really hard carbon off, and after that I deburred all the flash holes (I do this with all my cases because when you don't and you put them in the corn cobb media it tends to get stuck in the flash holes. After that I cut the crimps out of the primer pockets on the mil surp brass with my RCBS cutting tool. Then I dumped them into my case polisher with corn cobb media for about 4 hours. I don't care if they come out real shiney as long as they come out thoroughly clean. After that, I length trimmed them with my Forester Case Trimmer to a book length of 2.494 and then outside turned the necks with my Forster tool (Only slightly where it barely cleaned the smallest one up, because I used 3 different kinds of brass and wanted the neck thickness consistent. Then I deburred the necks inside and out, again with a little RCBS tool made for the purpose. I wished I'd had all Lake City brass, but beggars can't be choosers and I had a mixture of LC, Greek, and Winchester brass. Now, when my Culver powder measure gets here, I'll prime up all with my Lee Auto Prime Tool with the Winchester Large Rifle Primers I have, dump about 48.5 Grains of IMR 4895 ( feel this is pretty conservative, but hot enough that the Garand action should function well enough) in each and seat a Hornaday 150 grain FMJ Spire Point bullet in each. This should be some fairly accurate ammunition. I know the Mil Spec cases will have a hair smaller volume than the Winchester brass, thus slightly higher Chamber pressure than the Winchester brass, but I don't think it will make a lot of difference. Besides, I'll segregate them in clips accordingly and try not to mix them during a COF. Like I said, with the powder from the same lot, and same primers and bullets, I don't think it will make a hill of beans difference in POI. Anyway, though I'm still fairly new to Appleseed, I am a long time accomplished reloader, having been doing it for about 30 years, and I thought I'd share what I do with everyone. Please feel free to comment on my methods and fill in with your own ideas. I said I'd been loading for 30 years, but I don't claim to know it all yet.

[Nickle]

Sounds like you're all set.

About that RCBS measure. Put a baffle in it.

I've been using a Uni-Flow for quite a while, and my current one has a Seeley Masker conversion in it. All that did was take the small drum and switch it to a micrometer adjustment, so it could be reset. I've shot some mighty small groups with ammo made with it, back in my Bench Rest competition days. I usually use a baffle in it as well, that keeps a constant weight of powder on the drum and aids consistency. The other measure I use is a Lyman 55.

[snake284]

Oops! Too Late! I already ordered a Harrell Culver 90. Besides I been wanting one for awhile. Besides, it's only money,  (Almost $200 I could use on powder right now).

[Nickle]

Oh, the Culver measures are nice, and trust me, you won't regret it.

[Old Dog]

I bought an RCBS uniflow about a year back.  Man oh man I'm I tickled over how it works.

I've got to force myself to check every 10th or 15th round for powder charge.  IMR4895, H4895, Varget, IMR4198, Unique  and AA#5 are about like weighed charges.

I bought an RCBS Lil Dandy pistol powder measure and have stopped using it with Unique powder due to irregular low charge weights (as much as 2 grains off - its so easy to ID the low weight charges I just look in the cases with a flashlight and the volume difference is readily apparent) but the Uniflow works form the light (relatively) 38 Special and 45 ACP loads up to the 30.06 loads with the IMR powders.

My next (small) batch of 30.06 reloads will be for my US Enfield or 03A4.  I'm going to try some IMR4831 (compressed charge) because the bolt actions don't mind slow burning powder.

[Nickle]

Old Dog, thanks for jogging my memory.

I stated that I was using the Uniflow for BenchRest competition, and that is true.

What I didn't mention that I was using H4895, which isn't known for good metering, and the measure did well with it. Even better with Ball powder (like WW 748 or WC 844 or 846).

[gunville]

May I bust a MYTH? There is no such thing as a HARD primer. Every one of them is drawn from dead soft annealed brass. Does not matter who makes them.

The difference between CCI #34 and standard primers is the sensitivity to firing pin impact. This is done by the priming compound and the placement of the anvil in the cup.

You sure of this?

I was at the range a couple of weeks ago and one of the members was working through some loads - I don't recall what he was shooting - I think 30-30.

He showed me 3 fired cases he had shot and asked "If I never noticed some primers are harder than others?".

Each of the three cases had been loaded with a different primer. Two were very similary in terms of the impact depth of the firing pin in the primer. However, the third case was maybe half as deep.

It got me curious so I asked him some questions. One was Winchester, one was CCI, and the third was a batch of CCI he had just picked up. It turns out he had picked up the military ones at a gun show - the only ones he could find.

His rifle - I didn't really take note of - it but it wasn't military. What's more - he said he had to fire the cartridge twice to get it to light up.

Of course, if I'd had a brain on at the time I should have offered to buy his lot - I've been searching high and low...

[artkat2]

So some of you guys are relying entirely on your powder measure for accurate charges? (I understand you're checking every 10th or so throw). I'm still weighing every charge to approx one tenth of a grain. Maybe it's my measure, but I can't get a string of more than 3 throws to weigh the same. The difference in most cases is up to half a grain.
  Not that I mind weighing every charge, I'm having a good time working up loads and running them down range. For now I'm very seldom building more than 50 rounds at a time, but when my brass stores are sufficient, it would be nice to rely on my powder measure to throw a consistent charge through a hundred or two rounds.
Andy

[SamD]

artkat2,
Unless you are way over the levels that 30-06 should be loaded to for the M1, that .5 grain is nearly meaningless.
Military 06 loaded with 150s and non cannister 4895 vary by that and more.

Use a baffle, keep an even head of powder in teh hopper, lock down the adjusting screw real well and load to your hearts content. Check every 50 rounds or so to make sure nothing moved.

Sam

[artkat2]

Sam D
  Sorry, untill I read your reply about 30-06, I kinda forgot where I was. I'm not loading 06 yet as my CMP rifle is not due for a couple of months yet, I just like keeping tabs on this thread for future use. I just kinda got hung up on weighing so infrequently. I'm sure a lot of these folks have been loading long enough to rely on their equipment and know when they need to check things but myself being so new to in, I'm going to use every quality/safety check available to me. And like I mentioned above, I'm enjoying my bench time almost as much as my range time. I dont know who said it, but I read it on this site somewhere, He said something like "I like knowing what goes into my rifle as much as I like seeing what goes out of it". Ahh that wasn't it at all, but that's what I thought he meant.
Thanks
Andy

[asminuteman]

.

[douglas34474]

The military used (and still does) magnum grade primers. They have to make sure they work in any temperature the service may engage in. Magnum primers give better, more reliable ignition of the powder.

The NRA did a write up several years ago about primers. In it the stated that all primers use the same dead soft annealed brass to draw the primer cups. If the brass was hardened it would break when the cup was drawn.

The CCI mil spec primers are less sensitive to firing pin impact. This helps, but does not eliminate, the chance of a slam fire. The M1 has a floating firing pin which WILL hit the primer what the cartridge is loaded. Even with thr mil spec primers you need to make sure the primers are seated to the proper depth; below the case head. You should be able to run your finger over the back of the cartridge and feel the primer setting lower than the back of the case head.

If the gent at the range had a 30-30, he may have had a head space problem. '06 and 30-30 head space different. '06 is rimless and head spaces on the shoulder of the cartridge. 30-30 is a rimed case and head spaces on the rim. Also, if he did not seat the primers properly that could be part of his problem.

As to the powder measure, you have to use a baffle as SamD noted. I also bump the charger handle twice against the stop on the fill operation. This helps settle the powder in the measuring chamber resulting in more consistent charges. Using this method and a baffle I get charge weights with only 0.1 grains difference.

HTH

Douglas

[artkat2]

Douglas,
  I like that Idea about "bumping" on the fill stroke. I'm gonna give that a shot.
Still going to weigh every charge since I enjoy my time at the bench but thanks for the advice.
Andy

[SamD]

Sometimes we forget the why of what we are doing.

At one time I was  dedicated vermin exterminator, a lot like benchrest.
Every round reloaded was "perfect"in every way I could make them for that purpose.

Now days I reload only for economy and my ammunition is much more generic, pretty much just duplicate "ball" ammo.    The concept of using a sub MOA rifle is not something I think about when I'm over here.  Sometimes forget that that other folks have different purposes.

If you really want to get into some "serious" reloading I recommend http://www. reloadbench.com.  I have a lot of
friends over there and a couple are even Appleseeders 

Sam

[douglas34474]

This from the American Riflemen, July 2003, by Charles E. Petty in an article called "Primers and Mythology."

"One of the most persistent myths in shooting is that there are hard primers and soft primers. That isn't true. The real issue is primer sensitivity or more frequently something within the gun or loading process that causes the gun to go click when it shoulda' gone bang.

"All four of the major ammunition companies make primers and they all do it pretty much the same way. Thin brass and steel in huge rolls is bought from a mill. From it, primer cups and anvils, respectively, are stamped by simple presses. Everybody does it this way. A soapy lubricant is used in the stamping operations, both cup and anvil are then washed, dried and sent off to become primers. Some primer cups receive a thin nickel plating.

"While there may be some small differences in specifications for the raw brass from one maker to the other, none of it is hardened; it couldn't be stamped right if it was. It is common knowledge that brass work-hardens with bending, but the only place that could happen to a significant degree would be along the radius where it rounds out from bottom to sides. There is no need to worry much about hardness in that area since it isn't where the firing pin strikes. There have been instances where that area became so hard as to be brittle, and there could be a tiny perforation when the primer was fired. Some manufacturers include an annealing step to prevent that possibility."

"But since there is no "work" done to the bottom of the cup, it is much less affected and remains essentially as it came from the mill. Still, everyone who reloads has probably experienced a misfire, and found that the firing pin impression on the primer was much smaller than normal. It is perfectly reasonable to think that individual primer was hard, but the trouble can almost always be traced to other causes. Very often, that primer will fire if it is hit again."

I guess some Myths never die.

Douglas

[nmmi9100]

Anyone have a load that approximates 30-06 mil-spec velocities for a Garand using VARGET and 145 grain Boattail FMJs?  I've got thousands of 145 Boattails and about 24 lbs of VARGET so I'd like to load that combination.  Brass is commercial.  Primers are CCI#34...I've got more of them than anything else.  Reason I want mil-spec velocities is I want the sights to track the trajectory fairly well.

I was thinking about somewhere around 46 grains of VARGET...near max for the Hornady manual but the Hornady manual is always conservative in my estimation...compared to Hodgdon's, Lyman, & Sierra.

I don't have a Schuster Plug on my Garand...it's a 3.8 Million Springfield.  Is Varget safe to use for this rifle or is it getting to slow?  I know the 4895 series powder is considered ideal for a Garand...but I've got too much Varget to use anything else.

Thanks,

-David
Edgewood, NM