Reloading the .30-06

[Nickle]

Put your questions and comments on reloading for the .30-06 in this thread.

[Muddogg]

Just started my reloading today! I'm in the middle of taking out the crimps in the primer pocket, and that is kinda tough with just the hand tool. I am aware they sell a mechanical tool for the job, but the school doesn't have one. But, once I have that all done and clean the mouths up with the deburring tool, I'll be able to start putting in the new primers.

So right now I'm using these components:

Hornady .30 cal (.308) 150 gr SPBT

H4895 Powder (probably going to start at 10% below the recommended dosage in SPEER's Reloading manual since I'm reloading MilSpec brass)

Federal Large Rifle Primers

Lake City 1968 Brass, once fired(by me)

I wanted to get the CCI Primers, but they were out at the store. Fortunately for me this ammo is going into my 1903, so I shouldn't have any problems. Also, I probably should have picked up some IMR 4895 instead of the H4895, but I guess I'll just try this and see how it works.

[Nickle]

Muddogg, my father and I have used more H4895 than most people want to think about, and we will both tell you it's good stuff.

When either of us make target grade ammo for competition, that's our FIRST choice.

Looks like you might end up with some highly accurate ammo, as you're headed in the right direction.

[Buckshot]

Just started my reloading today! I'm in the middle of taking out the crimps in the primer pocket, and that is kinda tough with just the hand tool. I am aware they sell a mechanical tool for the job, but the school doesn't have one. But, once I have that all done and clean the mouths up with the deburring tool, I'll be able to start putting in the new primers.

So right now I'm using these components:

Hornady .30 cal (.308) 150 gr SPBT

H4895 Powder (probably going to start at 10% below the recommended dosage in SPEER's Reloading manual since I'm reloading MilSpec brass)

Federal Large Rifle Primers

Lake City 1968 Brass, once fired(by me)

I wanted to get the CCI Primers, but they were out at the store. Fortunately for me this ammo is going into my 1903, so I shouldn't have any problems. Also, I probably should have picked up some IMR 4895 instead of the H4895, but I guess I'll just try this and see how it works.

Muddog,

H4895 started out as non-canister surplus IMR-4895!

The US ammo plants had enough skill that powder was not blended for them like it is for public consumption (public consumption is called canister powder because it is sold in the 4 & 8 lb. canisters and 1 lb. cans.).

Hodgdon sold TONS of surplus IMR-4895 after WW II and Korea, often selling it in a plastic bag inside a paper grocery bag.  Others (local shops) would get a fiber drum of it and sell it the same way, weighing it out when you went to get it, usually with a scale like hardware stores used to use for nails.

Buckshot

Buckshot

[Muddogg]

Well I finally got all the brass primed today! Gotta tell you, using the Primer Pocket Uniformer hand tool from Lyman to get the pockets out to .210 is quite a pain, but one of my instuctors had the genius to have me put them in the Lathe with a 15/32 collet so they wouldn't slip(or deform). Worked a heck of a lot easier and I flew through 50 cases in a couple of hours.

Then, with an automatic priming tool, I put 94 primers in, because when I opened up the box there were only 95 out of a hundred! Where did the other 5 go? The box was sealed with tape, and it definately didn't look like they could slip out. Grrr...and the second to last primer deformed in the pocket so I had to take it out.

So, "now for the powder," I thought to myself. Wrong. When I asked my instructor about what grains to start off loading, we came across a small problem. I wanted the brass to perform to milspec standard and work from there. Turns out it's not the best powder for that, even though you can reload it for the .30 '06 easily and still have it work nicely. My Instructor recommended IMR 4064, and that does look like it would give the best performance. Fortunately another Instructor happend to have an unopened bottle of IMR 4064 his friend gave him that he will trade me Monday for my unopened powder(remember stores won't exchange or let you return powder, primers or ammo).

It's not that I can't use the H4895, it will probably work great, according to Hodgdon's Reloading specs(but every other manual appears to disagree). I want something that will work better, and since these guys have been reloading for a long time, I trust their word on the matter. I just wish I could have gotten it done by the end of the day so I could test it this weekend...

Also, if he forgets on Monday, I'll probably just go with the H4895. It's not so much a personal thing as it is a grade, and I'm falling behind this semester.

[Oohrah]

Well my friend, 4895 is a military spec for the 30-06.   There could be
others and I suspect there are.   Perhaps BL and BL2 are also used as
burn rate is very simular.   I tryed everything from a cutting type tool
to settling on a hardened nipple type die that swagges rather than cuts
Much more uniform pockets.   I use a RCBS, but almost all the major
manf. make one. Pretty sure Nickle can tell you how much powder
the government used

[Muddogg]

Well my friend, 4895 is a military spec for the 30-06.   There could be
others and I suspect there are.   Perhaps BL and BL2 are also used as
burn rate is very simular.   I tryed everything from a cutting type tool
to settling on a hardened nipple type die that swagges rather than cuts
Much more uniform pockets.   I use a RCBS, but almost all the major
manf. make one. Pretty sure Nickle can tell you how much powder
the government used

There's one instructor who swears it was a type "C" powder they used, but I am aware that they used 4895. However, different manufacturers hae different powders, and I think IMR 4895 is supposed to be the closest to the original(the military had to buy it from somewhere, right?). H4895 is slightly slower burning than the original I'm told, and works awesome for reduced loads. Of course I'm a complete newbie on the subjuect of reloading, so feel free to correct me!

[Buckshot]

Muddog and Oohrah,

Nickle's post might tell you (I have not read it all yet) or you can get info from the NRA.  I look in my "Cartridges of the World" new revised 3rd edition (old) and get that the only powders used for Ball, M2 were IMR4895, CMR-1000 and WC-852.  IMR4895 and CMR-1000 are both single base tubular and CMR-1000 is supposedly Canadian.  WC-852 is a double base spherical powder.

IMR4895 ONLY for Tracer, M1 and Match, M72.  All three for Ball, M2 (Overhead Fire Application).  IMR4895 and WC-852 ONLY for Armor Piercing M2, Tracer M25 and Tracer M25 (Steel Case).

I WILL NOT list the weights used, as these were all NON-Canister powders and the weights were actually given a final adjustment by the ammo factory loading the ammo.

Muddog,

What rifle are you loading for?  If you are loading for a bolt gun IMR 4064 won't hurt much of anything.  If you have an M1 Garand or have both bolt guns and an M1 Garand, then load ONLY to M2 specifications, M1s don't really like you playing with the powder much.  You can bend the op rod, or even blow the gas cylinder off the barrel with the wrong powder. 

My Dad and I learned that the hard way with an old re-weld Garand and loads of WW-760 under a WW 190 gr. BTHP Match bullet when we launched a gas cylinder downrange and destroyed the barrel and op rod in the process.  Op rod all bent, gas cylinder lock threads torn off the barrel when the gas cylinder went down range!

It isn't a pretty sight or a good feeling.  Take it from me, DON'T learn it on your own.



Buckshot

[Nickle]

Guys, I'll make this reply real simple.

Pay close attention to what Buckshot just posted, and do it. Everything he has said is right.

I will add that 4064 has been used in the M1, but there's NO WAY I would use it over 4895. And the source for H4895 for years was pulled down USGI .30-06 ammo, especially M2 Ball.

See, Hogdon got his start breaking down USGI ammo and salvaging the powder and reselling it.

Want to know what the US Military uses for loads?

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=267.0

Remember what Buckshot has said. These loads were made with non-cannister powder, so the data may be off a little from what you need. Work up from a lighter load.

[Muddogg]

Well, test fired my first reloads today, and looks like I'll be going with 43 grains of H4895 in my rifle.  Apparently it's close to the starting load that Hodgdon's manual says, but they use Winchester brass and I'm using the thicker Lake City brass. Pressures looked good, no flattening or bulging of the primers, recoil was good, even up to 47 grains in my rifle. But 43 was the lowest grain I tried, so I may have to load less when I get into tweaking the right load.

In a related(but without relevance to reloading) topic:

I would have stayed longer at the range and shot my .22 slower, but the rain was starting to really come down and the clouds were making the sky pretty dark. But with my last sheet of targets spent, I drew some 1" squares on the white cardboard backing that came with the pack and shot at 25 yards...horribly(5 out of 10 hits!?)!

My rifle's rear sight is broke, split right where the notch and the slot for the elevator is(I hate those cheap V-sights), and I couldn't adjust the windage, had to aim 1.5 inches right of the black square(excuses, excuses ). Just need to buy some nice Lyman or Williams sights(where to get $90? ), drill and tap them and see how she shoots. Using CCI HPs too, and she did shoot better. Just need to keep that POA solid.

Sorry, just had to post that last part! Back to reloading- 44 more rounds of already primed .30 '06, just need to add 43 grains to each, inspect, and seat the bullets!

[Muddogg]

...And voila!





My apartment has horrible lighting, sorry!

[Old Dog]

I made a statement in another post about the use of 270 Winchester, 25-06 and both 280 Remington and 7mm Express Remington for 30-06 brass.  Once it is run through the 30.06 sizer die it is 30-06 brass.  The link to the post is  http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=387.0

[Old Dog]

Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's.  I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher.  After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass.  Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole.  When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder.  I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass.  Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.

[vmi88]

Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's.  I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher.  After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass.  Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole.  When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder.  I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass.  Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.

Seemed pretty accurate even with the flash holes the way they are. Sounds like a great deal of work unless you were really trying to work up match loads.  Maybe make a batch without doing the flash hole and see if it makes a difference in the load you work up.

[Buckshot]

Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's.  I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher.  After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass.  Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole.  When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder.  I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass.  Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.

Get a flash hole uniformer and a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair, International in New Haven, IN.

They are better and easier than messing with drill bits.

Buckshot

[raf]

Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's.  I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher.  After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass.  Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole.  When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder.  I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass.  Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.

Get a flash hole uniformer and a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair, International in New Haven, IN.

They are better and easier than messing with drill bits.

Buckshot

What he said.

[Muddogg]

Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's.  I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher.  After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass.  Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole.  When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder.  I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass.  Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.

Get a flash hole uniformer and a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair, International in New Haven, IN.

They are better and easier than messing with drill bits.

Buckshot

What he said.

That's what I used on my Lake City brass, so I recommend it as well!

[Nickle]

Sinclair is really good stuff. RW Hart carries similar stuff as well. The Bench Rest shooters buy from these companies, and if it works for them, it works for you. FWIW, Wally Hart is a shooter himself, I've known him and his father (Robert, now deceased) since the 60's. Good folks to buy from, like Sinclair.

[Old Dog]

Still working up the brass.  Today I was trimming to length.  I haven't trimmed any brass in over 20 years (no shooting =  no reloading = no trimming or anything else to do with reloading).  Today I was trimming all 30.06 brass but it was a combination of civilian (Remington, Winchester, Frontier (Hornady), Sears (?), Federal) and military (Greek of various years, some Korean, again various years and others).  I've accumulated some of this from range pickups, bought some off my brother (also range pickups), some of it's mine (recent) and some of its mine (from over 20 years ago - Frontier and Remington).

I list all the above due to some things I noticed while trimming that I don't remember from the limited amount of trimming I did in the "old days".  I use an old Forster case trimmer.  Don't know how others operate but this on uses a collet to hold the brass rim, a pilot to center the cutter in the case mouth with a lock ring on the shaft to set/hold the lenght setting.  The collet is tightened by turning a "t" handle clockwise to grab the case rim.  Overall the Greek surplus brass tighted up with the "t" handle earlier than the civilian brass.  To me that means the Greek brass has a slightly larger rim diameter than the civilian brass (I didn't measure it).  Since I plan on using the civilian brass to load M1 food we'll see how that works out.  Also, the pilot was a snug fit going into most of the civilian brass necks while the military brass necks were actually loose on the pilot.   Without measuring both case neck OD and case neck ID (should have) it's tough to say why.  In any case it makes me believe the neck tension on the bullets will be different between the civilian and the miltary brass.  Might not be a problem as long as I segregate the brass by whether it's civilian or military.  Without trimming to length I would not have noticed this difference prior to loading (not even sure if I'd have "felt" the difference while seating the bullets, but I'll definately be looking for a difference and it'll be neat to see if there's a difference in POI - of course there could be other reasons for that as well).

Lots of things to pay attention to when reloading.  Lots of things to learn.  Lots of things to check, recheck, check again. 

PS.  After cleaning, resizing depriming, polishing and trimming I still found two pieces of brass I can't use - one a split neck and the other a split down in the shoulder.  I've eyeballed the brass everytime I handle it.  Check, recheck, check again.

[Nickle]

Take the crank handle off that Forster and use a cordless drill to turn it, and you'll speed up things. Easier on the right hand as well.

[Buckshot]

Take the crank handle off that Forster and use a cordless drill to turn it, and you'll speed up things. Easier on the right hand as well.

+ 100 on that one.  Turn a spud to screw on instead of the crank to protect the threads.

Also, if you size before you trim it will be more uniform and you will get a better feel for what the brass is doing.  Right now you don't know what kind of rifle or chamber any of the range brass was fired in.

Watch that civilian brass in the M1 Garand, it often doesn't last long, not being as thick as the GI brass.  Keep an eye out for that incipient head separation ring on the cases.

Buckshot

[George T]

Not sure where to post this, but figured best answers would come from those on this thread.  Much like M1A4ME, most of my experience comes from the 22-250 back in the 60's & 70's using a Herter's C press, Redding beam scale....very slow operations. I would like to speed things up and load for the 308 & 30-06.

I am considering a turret such as the RCBS or a progressive, RCBS, Hornady, Dillon.
(Love those Dillon catalogs!) Also, an electronic scale would be nice, but have no idea what to look for.  As in most tool purchases, you probably "get what you pay for".

Any advise is greatly appreciated, and yes, much of the product will be used for producing riflemen. 

[raf]

Not sure where to post this, but figured best answers would come from those on this thread.  Much like M1A4ME, most of my experience comes from the 22-250 back in the 60's & 70's using a Herter's C press, Redding beam scale....very slow operations. I would like to speed things up and load for the 308 & 30-06.

I am considering a turret such as the RCBS or a progressive, RCBS, Hornady, Dillon.
(Love those Dillon catalogs!) Also, an electronic scale would be nice, but have no idea what to look for.  As in most tool purchases, you probably "get what you pay for".

Any advise is greatly appreciated, and yes, much of the product will be used for producing riflemen. 

Most, if not all of thelectronic scales available are made by the same manufacturer; the individual reloading companies just spec their proprietary color.

What you want is not only a scale, but also its matching powder trickler.  This will allow you to semi-automate measuring and dispensing individually weighed loads for match loads, and individual loads for experimentation.  To make this efficient, you must obtain two dispensing pans from Lyman.  These little contraptions accept the weighed powder, and have a built-in funnel for filling the cartridge with the powder.  Weigh them both, and remove material from the heaviest so they are exactly the same weight.  You place one on the scale, and zero the scale.  Enter the desired weight of powder and then hit the dispense button.  Takes about 5 seconds for .30-'06 to weigh out and settle down.  Remove the powder filled pan, replace with its empty twin, and hit dispense button.  While second is filling, you have time to fill a case and get ready for the next one.

I use an RCBS power case trimmer that trims-to-length the sized case as well as simulteneously chamfering the inside and outside of case neck.  Takes about 5 seconds per case.

Once the case is trimmed to length, the primer hole de-burring too can be used.  The stop collar on the tool depends on a uniform case length to achieve a uniform de-burring of the inside of the flash hole.  I generally give the outside (primer side) of the flash hole a slight chamfer as well, after the primer pocket is uniformed.  By the time I am done, most of my cases would pass for match-prepped cases.  It is a little more work, but the results are worth it.

As you know, most of these steps need be done only on the very first reloading.  One thing I am experimenting with is the RCBS "X"-die.  This die is claimed to limit shell growth to a max of .002" over initial trimmed length, which is well under the maximum length allowable.  Allegedly, the case will grow .002" and no more no matter how many times it is sized with the "X"-die.  We'll see; so far it is working out well for me.  If the "X"-die proves all that the Mfr claimes, it might be a godsend in terms of time and effort saved in case prep. 

I own 2 Dillon presses, and an RCBS Rock Chucker press.  Both companies offer first-rate equipment, service and warranty.

To uniform the primer pocket, I chuck up the uniformer in a drill press and push the primer pocket up into the spinning uniformer bit.  Takes about 2 seconds per.  Get at least two of each uniformer needed, as after the first becomes dull and is sent off for warranty replacement, you can be using the second.

I have never used a turret press.  I have heard some say that the turret evetually becomes loose because the ram of the press pushes against it, and the turret, unlike the shell holder plate of a progressive press, has nothing to reinforce it.

Let me know if I can be of any further help.

[George T]

raf, thanks for the info.  I had not thought of the powder trickler and the RCBS
X die sounds good.  A progressive is probably the best long term investment.  That power case trimmer would be a great time saver as you suggest.  Looks like I need to do a little more research and save a few more dollars before purchasing.

[smle]

Hello, When muddog started this topic I noticed that everyone went straight for the powder(yes,very important). However, nobody mention his choice of primers. The use of commercial primers in semi-auto military rifles can be touchy. If they are seated to deep, misfire. Too shallow, slamfire. The amount of seating to make it go full auto is less than .001. This is the voice of experience speaking. If it helps go to hitechammo.com. They have the CCI mil-spec primers at 95.00 for 5000. Also Dillion has a sweger for the primer pockets on military brass. Thank you

[Muddogg]

Hello, When muddog started this topic I noticed that everyone went straight for the powder(yes,very important). However, nobody mention his choice of primers. The use of commercial primers in semi-auto military rifles can be touchy. If they are seated to deep, misfire. Too shallow, slamfire. The amount of seating to make it go full auto is less than .001. This is the voice of experience speaking. If it helps go to hitechammo.com. They have the CCI mil-spec primers at 95.00 for 5000. Also Dillion has a sweger for the primer pockets on military brass. Thank you

Actually that was discussed prior to our move here, but it is still vital information.

[Nickle]

I recommend using only CCI or Winchester primers. Both are resistant to slam-fires, and are well suited for military semi-autos.

[Old Dog]

Not having local access to a range I just jumped in and loaded several boxes of 30.06 ammo the other day.  HXP brass, the CCI military primer, IMR 4895 (48 grns) was well below the books max load (it was the minimum as a matter of fact) and some 147 grn. FMJBTs. 

Now for the question.  I started to seat them to the same OAL as the HXP ammo and then realized that only a short (very short to my way of looking at) amount of the base of the bullet would be in the case mouth, and the canellure was well above the mouth of the case.  In order to give the case mouth more of a grip on the bullet I went ahead and seated it to the canellure (no crimp though).  This made for a short, funny looking 30.06 shell but did not result in a compressed powder load.

Anybody else offer some experience if they've used 147 FMJBT's in a 30.06 - did you seat to the canellure or just to the same OAL at the M2 ball ammo?

Thanks.

[Puff-TMD]

Never done this, but it seems to me that your bullets, when fired will have to make a longer than normal "jump" to reach the rifling.  You may see a loss of accuracy to some degree or another.  May also give hot gas a chance to initially rush past the projectile and cause erosion.  This is just theory based on chambering rifles.  In practice, I really do not know if it will make any difference.  It is a practice load anyway, right?

[wcmartin1]

If it was me, I'd load them to the same length as M2 ball and use a Lee Factory Crimp.