Reloading the .223 Remington/5.56 NATO Cartridge

[SGTCap]

Where are y'all getting 77 grain projectiles?

[Nickle]

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=156431 $91.99 per 500

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=955601 $11.99 per 50

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=19475&categorystring=9315***652***19785***9016***7240***

[Douglas Fir]

I began saving Boxer brass a few years ago and continue to throw away the Berdan brass, although with current prices I'm shooting a lot less of even this. I have done no reloading to date but keep looking at all that empty brass. I have various calibers of pistol and rifle brass.

I have two questions about reloading in general.
I see a powder called IMR 4007 SSC advertised as usable in basically all calibers. I know that every reloader seems to have his favorite powder for different calibers but would this really be a good solution for a beginner, one powder fits all?

Second, I know that it is "possible" to reload the Berdan stuff. Should I start to save that also? Do people really reload it that much? Well, I guess that's three questions but I'm beginning to wonder a lot about that throw-away brass.

Looking forward to your advice. Doug Fir

[Nickle]

Take this piece of info from a prossenioal reloader (check the definition of professional).

Berdan primed brass CAN be reloaded.

Reliability is less than optimum, primers are expensive, and taking the old ones out is time consuming, and a pain in the butt.

I know HOW, have the tools to do it over at the shop, and I don't reload Berdan.

That should give you your answer.

That IMR 4007 SSC would be a poor choice, IMNSHO.

It falls between 4064 and 4350 for burn rate. Too slow for an M1 or M14 clone.

I suggest 4895. That powder will reload most rifle calibers, and is 100% correct for the 30-06 in the M1, 308 in the M14 and 223 in the AR. It doesn't measure so nice, but it measure tolerably well.

[Oohrah]

   The larger Berdan primer has twin posts in the primer pockets
that depriming hydraulic is the only sure way to not damage one
or both posts.   I am sure that they are not as available as boxer
primers and used to be be more expensive.   Very time consuming
to do this stage.   Also it seems like I could not get a primer
punch and had to modify an old nutcracker Lyman 310 primer
die to work (Berdan is larger so regular stuff doesn't work.   Like
Nickle said, not worth the effort and end up with not so quality
results for the time spent.   Sell the cases for scrap, and use the
money to buy once fired boxer primed.   At least with the GI boxer
you only have to swedge primer pockets once to use them for the
life of the case.
   Some other powders even through 4895 covers a lot of uses is
BLC 2,  and some others can do simular depending on the bullet
weights you use.  Varget also comes to mind.   I think that you
would be further ahead if you didn't limit yourself to a single powder
to cover multiple calibers and weights as you need to find the
load that works best for each rifle and each has it's own personal-
ity within pressure and velocity that are tolerated in semi autos.
You need to first figure out  what bullet wt. and pressure range
is acceptable and you will find out through loading  books what
works between min and max, giving the best accuracy.

[DaveD]

Inputs please

Working for the accurate load in my M4gery using the Hornady Book.
Load data:      Case:  LC
                     Powder:  AA2520
                     Primer: WSR
                     Bullet:  Horn 75gr BTHP

Have done 4 different powder loads.....starting load of 18.6, 19.6, 20.5 & 21.5.
Only load not used is Max @ 22.5.

Last two loads (20.5 listed at 2300fps & 21.5 listed at 2400 fps) both give me 3/4" groups at 25m off the bench.  Ya, I know....off the bench   

Primers of both look good, with the higher load (21.5gr) flattening the primer some , but still having well defined rounded edges.  Primers look identical to Black Hills reman 68 gr that I have fired.  Judging by the primers I believe the
max load would be over presssure for my rifle.

I'm leaning towards the 21.5 gr load as believe it will give better long range & terminal performance.

What think ye??

[Nickle]

I'm not very familiar with that powder, but, it sounds like everything works OK.

Definitely accurate enough  to get the job done.

And, yeah, shooting from the bench is perfectly acceptable to check stuff out.

[Bravo]

AA2520 is a good powder, just beware of the down-sides to it.

It meters really well, but it is VERY temperature sensitive. If you work up loads at 70F outside, then go to (oh, say, for instance) a Texas shoot in the summer where the temperatures off the concrete shooting line are well over 100F, you can have some serious overpressure problems if the load is anywhere near maximum for your rifle.

I used that powder for a couple of years in competition 308 rounds. I quit using it 'cause I wanted to use the same ammo for competition and long-range work. The AA2520 wasn't good for long-range work: in the morning I'd be shooting low, in the heat of the day I'd be shooting high. As in over a foot high at 600.

The only powder I can think of off the top of my head that is more sensitive to temperature swings is IMR4064.

[Nickle]

A powder worth trying is 4895. Just be careful of pressure with it.

[Old Dog]

I go with accuracy over velocity.  What's the difference in velocity from 1/2 to 1 grain of powder more or less?  I don't think a target can tell the difference between a bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2800 fps. vs. 3100 fps.  The target can tell the difference between a hit and a miss.  The smaller the target, the smaller the group has to be.

Accuracy over velocity.

As to the use of a bench.  I don't mean this to come off as bragging because it's supposed to be a testimonial to what I've learned since joining the RWVA and going to an RBC and becoming an instructor.  

I used to use a rest any time I was working up new reloads or sighting in a rifle (pre-RWVA).  The last time I sighted in a rifle (Feb. RBC at Ramseur) my old H&R M1 (using the techniques taught by the RWVA) was shooting dime sized 3 shot groups from a sling supported prone position with two of the bullets tearing the same hole bigger - with Greek surplus - at 25 meters.  I have put 4 of 5 shots (another M1 with Greek surplus) into a 1 inch square from a sling supported sitting position at 25 meters.  I'm not a "real" rifleman yet.  The first four were in the 1" square and I went and let it get me all excited and sure enough, number 5 did not end up inside that same black square (a real rifleman would be so used to such shooting that he wouldn't get all excited and flustered and mess up that fifth shot).

This stuff works.  It worked for me, it'll work for you.

[DaveD]

Bravo,

AA2520 does meter well!! From your input though it sounds like I should go for the lighter load.  Temp at this mornings shoot was 55.  Have a lot of respect for overpressure.

This loading for accuracy is new for me, as all my reloading was for plinking pistol loads. By accident found some accurate loads for my 357mag, but went along fat dumb and happy until the day I missed the overpressure signs of a 45 ACP load (the load by the way was well below max) and the gun came apart in my hand   No injuries except for my Tarus.        I have the pieces as a reminder!

Nickle,

I'll give that 4895 a try.  The Hornady book lists 6 loads for it.

And now for another question?  Measuring & trimming the neck.  When, how and with what?
I'm using an RCBS Trim Pro to trim case length and I see that RCBS has some attachment for turning the neck, but I'm not understanding the process.  Please enlighten me   

[wcmartin1]

After you use up all of your AA2520 try RE 15 or Varget. 

They are both less temp sensitive and most HP AR shooters in my area are using one or the other. 

Also, both are recommended by Glen Zediker in his book The Competitive AR15.

[Bravo]

I hate to stick my neck out too far (I don't load heavies in the 5.56) but if you're going to be shooting at the short-line, I'd just go with a lighter charge of the 2520. You won't see deviations in elevation worth talking about until you get out there a ways.

About an hour and a half ago, I picked up another 24 pounds of Benchmark. It's a great powder for 5.56, but I run lighter bullets. For something in the weight class you're running, I'd want a slower powder - something in the neighborhood of (like this will surprise anybody) exactly what Nickle recommended.

That class -which happens to be the 2520 neighborhood- would include Varget and H4895 (ever so slightly faster than Varget). From trial and error, I can tell you that H4895 isn't quite as stable as Varget in the temperature category - but it's still very good. This last summer I was 2.5 MOA high at 1000 in the heat - which is a clean miss. I went back to Varget.

If you want something SLIGHTLY faster than H4895, then take a serious look at Vihta N135. It's a GREAT powder, and extremely clean as well. Temperature stability about the same as H4895 - not tremendous but far from bad.

The worst powders for temperature stability are IMR, Winchester, and the AA sphericals. Which is sad, as Winchester and the AA sphericals are about the easiest metering powders there are.

[Old Dog]

I wouldn't worry about the neck turning if I were you, unless you have lots of time and you're already wringing everything possible out of your rifle.

The neck turning is a way to make the neck wall thickness the same all the way around.  I forget the reasons why now.  I used to do it, but for a different reason.  I might be tempted to do it for a super accurate bolt action rifle I was trying to shoot at very tiny targets at long distances but not for AQTs.

[Bravo]

Yeah, neck turning is a complete and total waste of time. Just buy good brass, and be done with it.

The only reason -IMO- to neck turn brass is if you have a chamber that's so tight it won't chamber. Even then, I'd be tempted to have the neck area of the chamber bored out rather than work over necks.

Do people do it? Sure. But the right question is WHY people do it.

Benchresters do it for super-tight groups out of super-tight guns at 200. "Out there" you can't shoot well enough to make neck turning worth while (e.g. if you can tell the difference between a 12 and 14 MPH wind, that's NOT good 'nuff - if you can tell the difference between a 12.4 and a 12.5 MPH wind, all the way out, THEN you need to neck turn  )

Others do it for the 'mental benefit'. Surely, the more confidence you have in your outfit, the better shot you are. Does it produce a 'real' benefit? No. But it does build confidence for some in some cases.

[LabRat]

Anyone have anything to say about the Ramshot line of powders, good or bad? They seem to run about 10-15% less $ per 8 lbs than most other brands, so I was wondering if there was a catch.

[Bravo]

WARNING: this is NOT first-hand information.

I haven't purchased any of the Ramshot powders personally, but I can tell you what I know.

One of my mentors - one LONG seasoned in precision reloading - set up a small-scale (in comparison to Hornady or Black Hills) ammo manufacturing business. His chosen powder for some applications was Ramshot TAC. According to him, it's a higher percentage nitroglycerine powder (same as Winchester, AA spherical, Vihta N5XX "high energy" series, etc) that has most of the same pros and cons. Meters very well, not as temperature stable as desirable for long-range applications.

His thought was that someone really wanting GREAT long-range ammo was gonna make it anyway (Fed GMM2 and BH is OK, but most any loader can do better for less money), he had to run loads a bit lighter than optimal anyway due to liability concerns, and that the TAC was the best of the nitro powders as far as temperature problems went. Of course, the fact it metered very well was what drew him to it. That's a major concern for pumping out ammo by the truckload.

I was with him when he negotiated for components........ the fact that TAC can be bought for a discount isn't something to ignore obviously.

With that as background, I'd buy TAC for short-line applications. As in for 200 and 300 yards. Whether I'd want to use it for longer ranges would depend on my area (we get BIG daily temperature swings in the high desert - freezing at night and 60's in the day isn't uncommon) and what kind of "uncorrected" accuracy was required at the longer ranges. For me personally, I find it bothersome to segregate ammo - I load one type per caliber for the most part.

[Nickle]

I'll echo the comments on neck turning.

Look, I used to be one of those Bench Rest competitors, and neck turning didn't catch on until groups got down to 1/4 MOA. Take my word for it, you DON'T need it for a rack grade semi-auto, or even a Highpower competition gun. If you were to go that route, know that the BR guys use special chambers with tight necks using those cases, and they use hand dies (usually Wilson or Hart) to size their brass, and seat wioth a hand seater (again, Wilson or Hart). Most of them use the same cases all day, shoot 6 record groups with the same 5 cases each time.

Yeah, I've shot a .204" group at 200 meters with a Light Varmint rifle, at a match. It was good enough to be the smallest for that relay, but, not good enough to win the match. And, I'm not bragging, as I wasn't all that good, due to money and time issues.

A couple of general powder comments. I've used WW 748 before, and though it shot well, I had to change loads Summer to Winter. I was using a .30 IHMSA cartridge, about the same capacity as a .30-30, based off the .300 Savage (or .308 Win) case. The loads were several grains different due to temperature, winter loads were WAY too hot for summer use.

Also know that H322 and T322 are to be stayed away from. They don't ignite well in extreme cold conditions. I've seen guys that were keyholing with their 6 PPC's in January. Some would switch to 4895 or N201 (Norma) and that usually fixed it for them.

Pay close attention to what Bravo says about powder (and reloading in general). From my experience, he's almost always right on what he says, and that alone should speak volumes.

[DaveD]

Bravo

I really would like to develop just one load to use......so looks like temperature sensitivity is a concern.  Learn something new every day 

Here in Indiana I shoot in below freezing to the upper 90's  (who knows what temps Appleseed will lead me into).   So....... looks like I will give the Varget a try for that project. 
Will do some light loads of the AA2520 for short range (25m) until I use up this
1 lb of powder.    Let's see ......how many rds of 223 @ 20.5 gr will that take   More 75gr BTHP than I have on hand!!


I will forget about the neck turning

Thanks

[DaveD]

Picked up some H4895 and using Hornady load book built up the first 4 loads.

Fired them today, grouped  7/8", 7/8", 1/2" and 1 1/8".  Still two higher book loads, so load #3 is right in the middle.  Will load up twenty more rds at Load #3 and tweek my scope into the "v" and fire to confirm the load.

Thanks to all for your inputs   

usafe7ret

[Francis Marion]

Anybody have first hand experience with Wolf small rifle primers in terms of ignition, consistency, primer pocket fit, accuracy? 
An online vendor sells two species of Wolf small rifle primers: 'magnum' and standard.
Vendor says that both magnums and standard Wolf small rifle primers have the same quantity of priming compound. 
Only difference is the thickness of the primer cup; magnum is thicker and reccomended by vendor for floating-firing-pin semis. 
If you've used Wolf, was it a quality product, middling, or junk?

[Son of Martha]

I have used the Wolf SR non-magnum primers.  No problems so far.  (Bought 2000, have sent about 200 downrange)

Note that I do not load with any degree of uptightedness, 4 MOA is fine with me.

SoM

[Francis Marion]

Annealing 5.56 casings: 
From what I've read on this topic, most common annealing method uses torche(s) to directly heat case necks.  What you want to do is to anneal the case neck and shoulder, but not the case body or head.  Body and head must remain hard to adequately cope with case pressure upon firing the loaded cartridge.   
Some manufacturers of 5.56 (S&B and PMP for example) do not anneal their 223 cartridges.  At any rate, there is no coloration of the neck area to indicate annealing.   
So, having large amounts of once fired 223 brass, which haven't been annealed, I'd like to anneal them and extend their useful life. 
Instead of a torch, I'd like to use a heated die to conduct heat to the neck and shoulder. 
Suppose you could use a heated die to conduct heat to the casing neck and shoulder.  The die temperature would be easily controllable to within +/- 5 °F.  And using a stopwatch, you can control the time the casing spends inside the heated die. 
So... using a heated die:
  -Is there any reason not to use a heated die to anneal casings?  The neck and shoulder will be inside the die, while the body and head will be outside the die. 
  -What temperature does the case neck and shoulder need to reach, and how long does it spend at that temperature to become annealed?
  -What does a properly annealed casing look like in terms of coloration?
  -Is it necessary to water quench the casings after annealing?  Why or why not?
  -People who anneal casings- how easy is it to anneal the case body and head, the parts which must remain hard?
  -Also, do you want to anneal prior to full length resizing, or after? 
Thanks if anybody has any experience here.

     

[Old Dog]

I thought the necks were annealed to keep the metal soft, not hard.  Firing, resizing, etc. makes the brass harder, I've always read.

I've only used a torch (propane) and I think I did it wrong, so what do I know.

I will say that I've reloaded some .223 brass (many years ago) up to 4 or 5 times and never had one split, but these were hunting rounds, loaded for accuracy, not velocity, and fired in a bolt action rifle.

Nickle will have a pretty good idea, when he gets back on the forum to reply.

[wcmartin1]

Interesting article on this you may wish to check out until you hear from Nickle:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[Francis Marion]

Five rounds on left are not annealed, five on right have been annealed.  S&B brass.  Had a few neck splits out of entire case with S&B factory ammo after initial firing. 
[attachment=1]



Unfired PMP 223 ammo did not have the neck area color change indicating annealing.  Photo below shows once-fired PMP 223 brass that was resized, trimmed, tumbled, then annealed.  Took 90 minutes to anneal approx. 1000 casings.
[attachment=2]

[LabRat]

Okay, this is what I do and it has worked for me, but be careful and do this at your own risk.

First, you don't want to "anneal" the case head or body since you're inviting a split case at the minimum and a blown-out head at worst.

What I do is use a MAPP torch instead of propane, just putting the case mouth in the flame, rotating the whole time. Since the MAPP flame is hotter, it gets the neck and mouth up to temp quicker and spends less time in the flame. That's important since brass is an excellent conductor of heat and the longer the flame is on, the hotter the case head is going to get by conduction.

What temp do you need to get up to? You get different answers to this, but all you need is to get the brass just above the "critical point" where it will go soft. Visually, that's just about when it starts to glow red or a bit before. You don't need glowing red hot. I usually keep the flame on until it just glows red and that's it. Once it's there, you don't need to hold it there. My high-tech setup is a pair of pliers to gently grip the head and I rotate it by hand through the flame. Probably not as consistent as some sort of machine and it's definitely time-consuming. I anneal as the last step in case prep before priming, so after sizing, trimming, etc. The neck or mouth usually won't crack on sizing alone, but the expansion from bullet seating is what's going to do it (or expansion of the neck on firing more likely). Some makers don't anneal because they don't figure on you reloading, so case life isn't a big deal to them. I don't quench since you'll end up making the brass as hard as it was before if you hit it with water when it's at the critical point. The whole thing about the pan of water was just to keep the case head from getting too hot, which you can avoid by not overheating it in the first place. I believe Nickle's professional setup uses a belt-fed apparatus and he doesn't quench. The color you want is what you see in the picture of the SB brass there. If you use a MAPP torch, then keep the case well away from the core of the flame since it'll soot the case (just a visual issue) but you run the risk of getting it too hot more easily.

The only thing with the heated die I think is the conduction issue. You might have to keep the case mouth in the die for quite a while to get it to critical temp and the conduction of brass might mean the head/body gets too hot. It would work, but it would probably be slower than the flame. It literally takes only about 5 seconds/case for me when I anneal 5.56 brass with the MAPP (which does add up for hundreds of cases). I've never had a case failure from this annealing method, but I'm pretty ruthless when it comes to culling suspect brass since it's my face up there next to 50,000 PSI.


I check to see if the case is soft by a highly-scientific tool called my thumb. If I can dent the case mouth with a little pressure of the thumbnail, it's good. The dent'll iron out with the bullet seating or you can just run it til it hits the expander ball in the sizing die. Obviously, I don't do this with every case, but I just spot check some at random when I'm done.

[Francis Marion]

Setting up the process, temperature sensors fixed to the body and head of test brass: even with a dwell time of 60 seconds at die temp 740 °F the casing body and head were less than 500 °F.  People shoot for 650°F as the critical annealing temp, but also they use direct flame not a fixed temperature die.   Flame approach imparts huge amount of heat fast, whereas die imparts minimal amount of heat to get job done over a tolerably longer time.  Anyhow, last step will be shooting the assembled cartridges and inspecting the fired brass.       
Dwell time of 30 seconds, the tool heats six casings at a time with a max throughput at that rate of 12 per minute or 720 casings per hour.  Resulting stuff looks like factory ammo.  Now to see how well the casings perform upon firing. 

[LabRat]

Sounds like an interesting setup. Let us know how it goes.

[Nickle]

ALL manufacturers anneal. Most just polish the brass after, and that removes the coloring. It is done to soften the neck and shoulder, to avoid cracking, and it's done numerous times during case forming.

OK, we use a propane rig at the shop, running the cases down a belt. Yeah, it's set up for production work, and is far more than you need.

Several ways to do it.

I recommend propane or MAPP gas. I haven't used MAPP for it, but it still should work well.

I suggest avoiding that die system. Too much hassle for my taste.

You can stand the brass up in a pan with a little water, and heat the necks until they disolor with a torch.

You can use the method Lab Rat uses, and that will work.

Do NOT quench the brass in water after. Some sources of info tell you to do that, and guess what? It actually will harden the brass.

Sometime, I'm going to have to post a picture of that annealer rig we use.