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Interesting M1A post/info from another forum

Started by Old Dog, May 19, 2008, 09:21:03 PM

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Old Dog

May 19, 2008, 09:21:03 PM
Folks, for what it's worth - on the M14 Firing Line Public Forum one of the most respected gunsmith/shooters had built an all Winchester M1A (except the receiver).  It had a brand new from the tube chrome line Winchester barrel.  After the build he was pretty disappointed in it because it was shooting 2 to 3" groups (I assume at 100 yds, his post didn't say). 

He said the generally accepted range of torque for the gas plug is 125 to 150 inch lbs. of torque.  He had been torquing it to the minumum of 125 inch lbs.  The last time he had it apart he torqued it to 150 inch lbs.  His groups showed a marked improvement (he didn't say to what size, just that it was much better).

Might be something for you folks with M1A's to try to see if it makes a difference with your rifle.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

voortrekker

#1
May 19, 2008, 09:41:07 PM
Can you find the M14 Firing Line Public Forum link to this post?


:)
If YOU are thinking, WE are winning.

Old Dog

#2
May 19, 2008, 10:01:26 PM
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

wcmartin1

#3
May 19, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
The original poster's alias is Art Luppino.  If it's the same guy I'm thinking of he's on an M1A DVD I own and seems to be reasonably competent. 

I have heard about consistent torque on the gas plug being an accuracy factor before and am not surprised.
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

Wade

#4
May 20, 2008, 01:58:58 PM
Hmm
Would that work the same with an M-1 Garand ?
I still have lots to learn.

Wade
Got Tired of looking for a Rifle Range So we Dug one up!
WOOF!
4 box's #1 the soap box#2 the letter box #3 the ballot box #4 the cartridge box, The founding fathers picked up the Cartridge box so that WE could use the first 3,,IMO If you don't use those 3 then you dishonour the founding Fathers !

wcmartin1

#5
May 20, 2008, 02:36:40 PM Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 02:39:40 PM by wcmartin1
Couldn't say, but I came across this for the Garand somewhere -

How tight should the Gas plug on an M1 be?

Reports have varied from 120 inch/pounts (10 foot/pounds) to 15 foot/pounds (which is 180 inch/pounds).

Unless you have a wrench, the best way to handle it (according to the field manual), is stand up and place the butt of the rifle between your feet with the trigger guard facing out, grasp the rifle with one hand over the gas cylinder, in front of the handguard, place the combo tool on the nut and then just put your arm into it. Unless you are a powerlifter, you probably won't strip the threads or break anything.

Of course, the best way, according to the 1967 National Match bulletin, is to get the gas cylinder wrench and a torque wrench and tighten it to 15 foot/pounds.

Don't forget to use anti-sieze.

YMMV
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

Old Dog

#6
May 20, 2008, 03:23:12 PM
Remember, every rifle is a little different than the next one in the rack.  What works for one, may not work for another.  Last year at the RBC I did something a little "funny" to my M1A and tightened up the groups.  The "old timers" said what we did should not have made the groups better, but it did.

The post in the link basically says to try different torque settings within that 120 to 150 in lb range and see if it makes a difference for your rifle.  It may or it may not.  If your rifle's groups are really disappointing then something like this might make a difference to your rifle.

Now, are two inch groups at 100 yds. acceptable already, for our purposes?  Yes.  If you can shoot 2 MOA consistently you can work over the AQT and do what you need to do within 500 yds. (once you know what to do for wind and sight/elevation adjustments.)

Then, once you can get the improved results on the AQT, the next step is to make contacts about becoming an IiT or going to an RBC to become an instructor.

Gotcha!
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Nickle

#7
May 20, 2008, 03:37:27 PM
2 MOA will get it done all the way out to 1000 yards, and at that point, the .308/7.62 NATO is about running out of effectiveness. Yes, it is actually past the max effective range of the rifle, but almost to the max effective range of an M60 MG.

Sometimes every little bit helps, and it is worth trying.
They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians and Canadians and this country being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting. . . . ".  Lord Percy

Sounds like New Englanders to me.

Old Dog

#8
July 30, 2008, 01:26:55 PM
Another bit of GOOD info from the M14 firing line public forum.

One of their resident M14 smiths says to use an M1 trigger in your M14.  The reason is the M14 trigger pin hole is not completely round (right about a 50% contact between the trigger and pin surfaces) and this results in and increased trigger pin failure rate as compared to an M1 Garand.

The reason the the M1 trigger lasts longer is the hole makes more contact with the firing pin due to it being round.

He says if you have an M14 trigger in your M1A you should replace it with an M1 trigger, but install the M1 sear on the trigger first as the M14 and M1 sears are different.

http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?t=58071
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

The Guy

#9
July 30, 2008, 02:28:30 PM
Being a mekanik, I have a little joke for y'all.

What's German for torque?

Gud'n'tite.



Some folks index their gas plug to the gas block once they find a good setting.  Not a substitute for a good torque wrench, but fine for field work.  Also, antiseize can change actual "torque" on fasteners, increasing the amount of pinch at a setting at the same torque amount, due to loss of friction.  BLAHBLAHBLAH.  I have heard usually deduct 10% if anti seize is used.  Not like I really give a crap, but, now you all know some useless info.  Enjoy.

crashkid2k

#10
August 03, 2008, 01:24:15 AM
Wade asked earlier if the same information applied to the M1 Garand.

The M1 ports gas directly onto the op-rod piston to cycle the action (some guy named Kalashnikov thought it was a pretty good idea, too).

The M14 ports gas to a piston which cycles the action via op-rod.

In general, info on M1/M14 gas systems will not apply across both platforms.

Old Dog

#11
August 03, 2008, 08:40:40 AM
An additional comment about the M1 vs. M14/M1A gas system is (from what I keep reading) is that the M1 gas system is virtually self cleaning where as the M14/M1A gas system must be cleaned  with some regularity based on the the rounds fired, the ammo used and the gas system itself.

This is from stuff I've read on other websites, forums, etc.  not personal experience.

If so it means you don't have to tear the M1 out of the stock to clean it as often.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Fred

#12
August 03, 2008, 02:37:34 PM

   On the other hand, you don't have to 'tear' the M1A 'out of the stock' at all to clean the gas system.

   In winter months, I usually don't clean the gas piston and cylinder - not for the whole winter - but in hot humid months, I clean it after shooting, every time...
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...

crak

#13
August 04, 2008, 02:33:56 AM
Fred, you still get to shoot?  ;D

Ahh, the good old days...
Check your drama at the door.
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