Leg Position in Prone

[Justsomedude]

Watching Top Sniper last night I noted that all of the prone positions has their legs straight.  Their bodies were angled to the rifle at varying degrees.

Copied this from an old thread...where several people had noticed that on the WWII Army training video they had straight legs.
I've noted that they were straight in the Army manual as well.

It wS stated that "they didn't know that then" but from what I saw on Top Sniper they don't know it now either.

What say you?

I was told it was also to keep you as low as possible.  Military prone gives you a lower profile, hence a smaller target.  Just like that support leg heel.  If you point your toe into the ground and have your heel up.....the heel could get shot.

Logically, it makes sense.  Just what I was told.  Go from there.

EEL

Per what Nickle said: they didn't know about it then.  When I first started shooting competitiion the trigger-leg-up position was referred to as "the Estonian postion" or occasionally "the Roumanian position".  It lifts your diaphram off the ground and, for me at least, reduces a major abdominal arterial pulse that literally bounces me up and down.  They're actually teaching basic marksmanship in the training films, just like we do.

Keeping your profile as low as possible is a tactical thing.  I believe this is what they teach during the second week of Marine rifle instruction (the first week is supposed to be very similar to what we teach at Appleseed, except we don't yell at people  ).  The second week begins with something like "Remember all that 'stuff' they taught you last week, well, you try doing that in combat and you're going to get your (whatever) shot off."  The second week, prone is flat, and the body is in line with the rifle to reduce silhouette; no "chicken wing" in standing or kneeling; sitting isn't emphasized, kneeling, using all available support, and cover are.  Good stuff to know in a fight but all of it costs you in terms of marksmanship and it's not what we teach.  We're into the basics.     

[2 clicks low]

We teach leg up.
Watch me 
My worthless Opinion only from here on in.
It may be that if you are young and fit it doesn't matter. If/When you get old and fat like me it will make a difference. I tell a shooter to start at 30 degrees. I let them pick the angle that works best for them once they are on their way. When I teach I try to follow the manual as much as I can. I vary only as NEEDED (read adaptive ). Once they are shooting the score I have only ideas of refinement for them to try or adapt as it fits them. Once they are shooting 240+ I am looking to learn from them as I only shoot 238.
2cl

[Two Wolves]

2cl-- Thanks for the humor. You made me laugh. ~ Two Wolves

[ItsanSKS]

There are at least two distinct types of prone position:

Supported Prone- using some form of external support for the front of the rifle, IE: bipod, rucksack, sandbag, etc.

Unsupported Prone- using nothing to support the rifle aside from its sling.

What we teach at an Appleseed event is Unsupported Prone.  In this position, the shooters body must be contorted somewhat, to allow the support arm to be in a position that it can actually support the rifle.  Hence the 30-45* angle to the rifle.  In this position, bringing up the support leg helps lift the shooters diaphragm off the ground, reducing the influence on the sights of breathing.
Unsupported Prone is a compromise between stability and comfort, with comfort losing out to gain in stability. 

When using supported prone, the shooter need not contort themselves behind the rifle.  They are able to take a more in-line position, with actual angle to the rifle determined more by eye relief and length of pull than anything else.  Rather than supporting the fore end of the rifle, the support arm/hand now helps to steady the butt-stock in the shoulder pocket.  The option of raising the trigger leg to lift the diaphragm is still there, but with a supported position, the influence of breathing is so small, that it may be inconsequential to the end result.  Using external support, the compromises involved with the unsupported prone position are mitigated; many shooters who have extreme pain or discomfort in the unsupported prone will find that these have gone away in a supported position. 

While we may only teach Unsupported Prone, it behooves our instructors to be familiar with the concepts involved with supported prone, as it may allow a shooter who could otherwise not participate in parts of our events to do so.

I have had many people ask at my events why we do not teach a supported prone position.  I have responded to them thusly:

"A supported prone position is, far and away, the most stable prone position, IF the shooter has the time, equipment and training to do it right.  What we teach will enable a Rifleman to take up a rack grade rifle, and make accurate, aimed shot at targets out to, and beyond, 500 yards.  A supported prone position would enable that same Rifleman to make accurate shots at distances much greater than that.  The reverse is not necessarily true-  Someone who has only learned how to use artificial support for their rifle, and can make shots at great distances, cannot automatically be assumed competent to make consistent hits on targets at or closer than 500 yards, without that artificial support. 
What we teach are the Fundamentals.  What you add to these skills, such as artificial support, is up to you."


-ItsanSKS

[Justsomedude]

Makese sense.
I wondered if the bipod was a factor in that.
Thanks

[jmdavis]

The Army Marksmanship Unit teaches shooters to get more behind the rifle (ie less of an angle). On any given weekend you may find hundreds of high power shooters (of all sizes and shapes) doing exactly that using only a sling for support. If you try this you may find that your recovery time in Rapid Fire is less and you have fewer issues with your trigger-side elbow moving.

All positions are subject to the shooters body type, flexibility, etc. Some people may directly address the target in Offhand, others may use a crossed ankle or figure-4 (as used by David Tubb) in sitting.

Were you to look at Olympic shooters you would see a variety of prone positions (all of which are capable of producing perfect scores). As a matter of fact a couple of German authors examined the positions of Olympic Champion shooters thinking that they would all be similar and easy to document. What they wound up with in "Way of the Rifle" (http://www.schuetzenwelt.de/shop/7/buecher_videos/53/buecher/3103/way_s_of_the_rifle/) was a conclusion that there are many ways to do things.

The reason that Army, Marine, and Navy precision shooters keep their legs straight is partially to lower their profiles (an important factor in their line of work. Bringing the leg up is taught for competitive shooting.

One piece of advice that I would offer instructors is to check performance before offering position critique. Telling a Navy SEAL that he can't shoot accurately with his legs straight behind him and then watching him shoot a one hole group is a good path to embarassment.

[aragornelessar86]

We teach leg up.
Watch me 
My worthless Opinion only from here on in.
It may be that if you are young and fit it doesn't matter. If/When you get old and fat like me it will make a difference. I tell a shooter to start at 30 degrees. I let them pick the angle that works best for them once they are on their way. When I teach I try to follow the manual as much as I can. I vary only as NEEDED (read adaptive ). Once they are shooting the score I have only ideas of refinement for them to try or adapt as it fits them. Once they are shooting 240+ I am looking to learn from them as I only shoot 238.
2cl

I'll second the "abdominal investment" alleviation element. My problem is that it's so damn comfortable down there at 30 degrees or so that on a nice day I'm in danger of falling asleep during the prep period.

[TruTenacity]

When using supported prone, the shooter need not contort themselves behind the rifle.  They are able to take a more in-line position, with actual angle to the rifle determined more by eye relief and length of pull than anything else.  Rather than supporting the fore end of the rifle, the support arm/hand now helps to steady the butt-stock in the shoulder pocket.  The option of raising the trigger leg to lift the diaphragm is still there, but with a supported position, the influence of breathing is so small, that it may be inconsequential to the end result.  Using external support, the compromises involved with the unsupported prone position are mitigated; many shooters who have extreme pain or discomfort in the unsupported prone will find that these have gone away in a supported position. 

So when we have given a youngster or someone that doesn't have the strength to support the fore end of their rifle something to use as a support should we still ask them to pull up their support leg or not or does it matter?

[GEmanuel]

TT,
I would try to get them to use as many of the SHFs we teach as possible. If they have given them a fair trial and then decide they have a better way for them personally, and they get 'good' results I would be inclined to let them shoot using their particular modifications.
In most cases, a rest would be used for a youngster as a safety device in order to allow them to better control the muzzle as per safety rule #1. Having said that, the call would have to be made on a case by case basis as to whether insisting that our way must be used, particularly if it would interfere with a young shooter having 'fun', which they absolutely must be allowed to do, safely. If drawing the knee up interferes with that, then the leg can stay straight, if not, bend it.
If we are dealing with an adult, and there are no physical issues, bend it. If there are physical issues, adapt to them.
Anyone having a great deal of military experience can still learn things from us, but as to the position, well that may be so well ingrained that it just is not going to change. I would probably want to defer to such a shooter unless I "know' that I am going to make him better by insisting he change. The example of the Navy Seal comes to mind, and we do have such individuals show up on our lines from time to time.
I think one of the biggest keys to being a truly good instructor may be instinctive, as in knowing what a student needs and how to make them see that benefit.
Just my 2 cents, YMMV

[Roland]

They probably won't shoot as well if they are shooting with support at an angle. I've tried it before, just of of curiosity, and it just isn't as stable as having both legs behind you. I agree with GEmanuel completely. Allow them to try both ways, but keep safety first. Other then that, seems like shoot boss call to me.

[Unbridled Liberty]

Along these same lines, some instructors teach knee up and trigger side leg out wide to "increase stability".  Others teach knee up but trigger side leg parallel with support side leg.  Are these just variations on a theme, i.e. options, or is there a "preferred" position for the lower part of the trigger leg?

UL

[Unbridled Liberty]

Along these same lines, some instructors teach knee up and trigger side leg out wide to "increase stability".  Others teach knee up but trigger side leg parallel with support side leg.  Are these just variations on a theme, i.e. options, or is there a "preferred" position for the lower part of the trigger leg?

UL

[cswhitfield]

When I went through Recruit Training at Paris Island in 1970 we were taught the same positions and techniques (sling, positions, 6-steps, NPOA, etc) as Appleseed teaches today.  Prone position with leg up, Kneeling and offhand with trigger elbow "chicken winged".  I only remember "crossed leg" sitting position but they may have taught crossed ankle and open leg.  I guess most things eventually change (not always for the good).  In reading through USMC - MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship dated 2001 they now teach straight leg prone as well as trigger leg up.  Looking at the demonstration pictures the elbow was not "chicken winged" in either offhand or kneeling positions.

Back then the "Rifle Range" consited of two weeks.  The whole first week (snapping in) was dedicated to learning the sling, shooting positions, 6 steps, NPOA and Dry Firing.  That was five straight 12 hour days.  The second week was live fire at 200, 300 & 500 yards.  The last day was qualification day (one try).  If you did not at least qualify as Marksman, 190, you tried again on Saturday.  If you failed the second time you got recycled.  Anyway it looks like even the Corps has gone to "straight leg prone.

[slim]

Watching Top Sniper ....

What say you?

I'm surprised there's this much "debate" over the position. As far as I knew, we had "the way we do it" and that was that. Any variation of that, prone or otherwise, is another style for another course. Another tool for the toolbox, if you will.

This is Appleseed. This is the way we do it. Done.

[GEmanuel]

Along these same lines, some instructors teach knee up and trigger side leg out wide to "increase stability".  Others teach knee up but trigger side leg parallel with support side leg.  Are these just variations on a theme, i.e. options, or is there a "preferred" position for the lower part of the trigger leg?

UL

The trigger leg in line with the bore of the rifle will help absorb or "buffer" the recoil of a larger caliber rifle contributing to maintaining NPOA. I suspect that the open leg prone would use the entire body but, also lowers the frontal profile, thus making the shooter a more difficult target for the opposition. This I believe also has to do with the chicken wing falling by the wayside especially with the M16/AR15 as they both utilize a vertical as opposed to a traditional pistol grip.
I agree with Slim as a starting point and for most shooters an ending point as well, however a set in stone rigid position is not always the best approach for all shooters

[dart67eb]

Knee up elevates the diaphram and helps recover NPOA from recoil when firing on every breath.  Elevating the diaphram helps you 'get into' (for lack of a better term) your rifle better giving you a more acute angle on your support arm.  That's all I say.

[dart67eb]

/quote]

ditto

[2 clicks low]

2cl-- Thanks for the humor. You made me laugh. ~ Two Wolves

Two,

Glad you liked it.

I said it all in the first sentence. Had a lot of help 
I just sat back  and waited for it to come back around.
Thanks Slim. I knew someone would agree with me.

2

[Mark Davis]

I demo it by the book.
Then I tell this is the starting point, adjustments may be needed for your body and equipment.

[Justsomedude]

I was just confused because I didn't see it in the "How to shoot the M1 Garand" training film or in the "How to shoot the US Army Rifle" manual but did see it in some AS YouTube videos.

Watching Top Sniper ....

What say you?

I'm surprised there's this much "debate" over the position. As far as I knew, we had "the way we do it" and that was that. Any variation of that, prone or otherwise, is another style for another course. Another tool for the toolbox, if you will.

This is Appleseed. This is the way we do it. Done.

[jmdavis]

Exactly Mark!

What's in the manual is not the sum total of what you need to know or teach to be a good instructor. It's the starting point, the minimum. As you work more and more shoots you learn more. You learn from students, from other instructors, from reading, from videos, lectures and classes with top shooters. As you learn you improve and as you improve your instruction does as well.

Pretty soon you start seeing your outcomes improve in terms of both rifilemen and volunteers. Perhaps you find yourself running a line with 30 shooters, 9 riflemen, and 6 new orange hats. Perhaps it's an RBC of 15 or so where everyone shoots a Rifleman score and and all of those not already instructing take an Orange Hat. Perhaps it's one of those new Orange Hats working 13 events in his first 4 months, or taking responsibility for making sure that shoot boxes are shipped, or building a new range on less than 24 hours notice to prevent an event from being cancelled.

Static thinking leads to static results. Always look for ways to improve your outcomes!

That's the best advice that this former Senior Instructor can offer.

[jmdavis]

As an aside if someone wishes to contact me (and get an answer). Please use email. You should find my address on my profile. I can't send PM's or look up profiles so the only ways that I can answer are forum posts or emails once you send me your address.

Mike

[Mark Davis]

jmdavis,
I thought your reply #5 was excellent. Especally on the forum where people have time to digest info.

[Two Wolves]

You've got the student and the instructor. The student comes voluntarily and pays his fees to participate in the course of instruction. The instructor has agreed to pass on to the student the course materials as they are presented to the best of his ability. There are some things in this course of instruction that are ridged and some things that are flexible.  The safety rules and the line commands are an example of things that are ridged. How you hold your body or what sling position you use are flexible. The important concept here is to fulfill your obligation to the student by providing him or her with the course of instruction that they paid for. It's such a simple concept.

Regarding the discussion on leg position, I value the discussion and I am eager to learn from the experiences of others. I also appreciate that we can share information and life experiences and personal philosophies freely. An occasional bit of humor thrown in the mix helps make my day also. Thank you to all for sharing. ~Two Wolves