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What I learned last week

Started by jmdavis, November 17, 2011, 11:51:59 PM

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jmdavis

I attended a class last week with Jim Owens www.jarheadtop.com

Jim was the first person who I leaned of NPOA from. That was in his book "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control and the Big Lie." I read it back during the 90's and was impressed with his information.

This was a short notice class and there were only two students. After the third day on the range, some of the Range officers and I discussed Appleseed. (I was wearing my sweatshirt under my shooting coat. )

What I learned:

One really important lesson is to test your sling settings while in position. To do this with a 1907 sling, shoot groups with the sling at normal position, one notch looser and one notch tighter. I was able to shrink groups from 3 to under 2 MOA with this change. Test it in both prone and sitting and make sure that you write down your settings.

Another lesson came in the form of Long Range Ammo testing. We first measured our chambers using a Hornady Overall length guage, special case, our choice of bullet, and a set of calipers. Once we knew the distance to the lands, we made up test loads at .000, -.005, -.010, -.015, -.020, -.025, -.030, -.035, and -.040. In my case, -.040 gave the best results (a group which scored a Master HP score on the 600 yard target.)

We also practiced eyes closed NPOA drills. I hadn't been a shooter for one of these in a while and I really enjoyed relearning the lesson.

Wind class was good and the Owens log book has good info in terms of common bullet windage charts. As well as basic info on reading the flags. The class itself looked at mirage and how to use it to predict wind shifts. Also presented were the concepts of shooting the constant (prevailing wind) and chasing the spotter (reading the wind for each shot and adjusting to compensate. The basic conclusion was that shooting the constant will lead to higher scores but chasing the spotter will provide more wind reading experience.

Other classes included High Power procedures, scoring, and pit operations.

This class was time and money well spent.

Mike
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

asminuteman

bezon JMD,

well done lad, glad to hear you enjoyed yourself.  ^:)^
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."~ Thomas Paine

I know of no way to judge the future, then by the past. -Thomas Paine

Spartan

Did he cover the "Big Lie" and how did that work out?
Sounds like it was a great training.
"With your shield or on it"

jmdavis

Quote from: Spartan on November 18, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
Did he cover the "Big Lie" and how did that work out?
Sounds like it was a great training.

We did cover the big lie, in more depth than the book. The basic thought is that since your group will basically be a cone, depending on group size moving the sight XMOA may get you 2XMOA. With even a 2MOA hold this can move you out of the 10 Ring. By the same token, you can shoot Master scored with a 2 MOA hold and a normal shot distribution.

I went in skeptical about the "Big Lie." I'm still skeptical but what I saw worked on that range and that day. The important thing is that when you adjust your sights you are not moving the shot but moving the group. We all know and teach this. But sometimes we may take thatlow shot and assume that it is the center when it is actually the lowest point in the cone. If we move up 2 MOA and then shoot to the high point of the 3 MOA cone, we are out at 12 above the 10 Ring. That's the idea, anyway. But, the smaller your hold, the less it helps. If you are shooting 1 MOA in prone and you are 2 MOA low, move it 2 MOA. If you are shooting 4 MOA in prone and are 2 MOA low, only move up by 1/2X or 1 MOA. 

I feel like I am butchering this but that's the idea. The big lie works better for shooters with a larger group. This explains why it doesn't work well for some shooters and great for others.

 

"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

techres

Interesting to see that they are doing semi-loaded transitions.  I.E. with mag loaded in rifle but bolt down on an empty chamber. 

Very interesting way to do it.
Appleseed: Bringing the Past into the Present to save our Future.

jmdavis

Quote from: techres on November 18, 2011, 12:49:07 PM
Interesting to see that they are doing semi-loaded transitions.  I.E. with mag loaded in rifle but bolt down on an empty chamber. 

Very interesting way to do it.

Those are CMP transitions. NRA matches use no transitions, rifle out of shoulder, mag on ground until start of stage.
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

boltgun71

Mike!  You finally just cleared up the "Big Lie" for me.  Thanks for explaining it.

Spartan

JM Davis
That was a great run down I understand the big lie now.  All the times reading it and talking about it I never really got his idea on it. 
I was having dinner with David Kimes last couple of nights and he went into great detail about zeroing lower so that when you have a big pulse it goes right in. And, about lots of training with shading. It worked for him in certain situations. 
"With your shield or on it"

jmdavis

The first four chapters for anyone interested are available for free from Jim's website.

http://www.jarheadtop.com/Free_Chapters_Blue.htm
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

jmdavis

Quote from: Spartan on November 18, 2011, 01:19:41 PM
JM Davis
That was a great run down I understand the big lie now.  All the times reading it and talking about it I never really got his idea on it. 
I was having dinner with David Kimes last couple of nights and he went into great detail about zeroing lower so that when you have a big pulse it goes right in. And, about lots of training with shading. It worked for him in certain situations.

Damn Spartan, you meet some cool people. That is some great information. We did some exercise last week with 1/4 sight and 1/2 sight shading as well as holds. Shading and holds are particularly important for the team events at the National matches.

VAShooter has a story about practicing with the Navy Team in San Diego. His rear sight was stuck and his coach noticed that he was not making the called changes. Though he was scoring 10's. The coach asked VAshooter about it and was told that the sight was stuck. The coach sent Doug walking back to the armorer where Don McCoy adjusted and tested the sight. As a way to remember the event and the appropriate solution, the coach had him bring back a case of Ammo on the walk back to the range.  ;D
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

JustJeff

Quote from: jmdavis on November 18, 2011, 02:24:21 PM
The first four chapters for anyone interested are available for free from Jim's website.

http://www.jarheadtop.com/Free_Chapters_Blue.htm
I read them last night, thank you very much.  I'll probably be ordering as soon as the boss turns loose of the Paypal acct.
Your version of "ineffective" does not necessarily reflect the truth....
Having been "ineffectively" taught to the Rifleman Standard and having been "ineffectively" taught to teach others to the Rifleman Standard, I believe I prefer the "ineffective" over the other choice.

Tidewater_Shooter

Quote from: jmdavis on November 17, 2011, 11:51:59 PM


Wind class was good and the Owens log book has good info in terms of common bullet windage charts. As well as basic info on reading the flags. The class itself looked at mirage and how to use it to predict wind shifts. Also presented were the concepts of shooting the constant (prevailing wind) and chasing the spotter (reading the wind for each shot and adjusting to compensate. The basic conclusion was that shooting the constant will lead to higher scores but chasing the spotter will provide more wind reading experience.

Sounds like a great class.  After the last HP event at USTC, one of the Navy shooters held a class on reading the wind.  I was the only one who stay after the match so I got one on one instruction.  The part on reading the mirage was an eye opener.

BTW, i was surfing the CMP's site and the AMU will be holding public classes for basic and advanced pistol and rifle in July of next year at Camp Perry. 

http://www.odcmp.com/nm/safs.htm