Effective Alternate Sitting Position

[jmdavis]

This is a sitting position that can be very effective for many shooters.

http://www.odcmp.org/0307/default.asp?page=USAMU_CASITTING

[Cooper]

YES!  Thank you for bringing this up!@
Crossed leg I shoot mid-to-upper 30's
Crossed ankle I shoot mid-to-upper 40's consistently.
Every BODY is different, and I exhort students to try out all the different seated/kneeling positions and add in extra opportunities for students to try different positions.  Especially those of us that have had multiple knee injuries and surgeries!
I believe that if I had been given a little more time to explore the various seated positions at the first shoots that I attended, that I would have reached a Rifleman's score in half the time.  Dryfiring just doesn't give you the necessary feedback to determine your optimal seated/kneeling position.  It does, however give you LONG LASTING feedback on what causes you excruciating pain.
Coop

[Old Dog]

I think one of the issues with sitting is stretching your back and shoulders often enough to be able to get into position.  A lot of larger folks assume its the stuff around their middle that gets in the way but I'm not sure that's it as much as lower back/shoulder issues.

Anyone that's seen me knows I'm not a little guy.  I have some screws/plates in my lower right leg that prevents me from kneeling - so I have to sit in the grass/floor when working on anything down low.  That means I do it a lot, not so much for shooting, but for working on the car, the lawnmower, the wife's vacuum cleaner, etc., etc.

I've dozed off in the sitting position on the firing line at Ramseur.  Sure have.  Comfortable enough, humid/hot enough, tired enough at an RBC in July to drift off.  At the CMP GMI class at Camp Perry in 2007 more than one of the older heavy guys like me looked at my sitting position and told me they hated me  because they couldn't get into it.

If you're going to shoot a lot don't overlook the stretching/practice aspects of getting into those positions.

Don't just give up because your older/heavier than you really want to be.

[Roland]

I'm sorry if this might cause a thread derail, as it really is a simple question. Does it actually matter which leg is on top in the cross legged position?

Roland

[Spartan]

Yes it does matter.  The forward leg (leg towards target) being high will help with more of the correct elevation when you are Naturally Pointed at the Target.
Example would be: I am a right handed shooter so my left leg is forward and it is on top of the right leg.  But everyones body is different and can change on any given day.  Stretching, the ground, your body, the conditions all have a say.  In your dryfiring practice at home is an excellent time to work on it and find out what is best for you.  JMDavis has a good thread there about this.

[jmdavis]

Roland, I need to do left leg on top to get the proper elevation. But like like Spartan says, all of this is subject to your body configuration, the terrain, etc etc.

My real problem is damage in my lumbar region. I had stuck to kneeling until recently and turned in low to mid 40's on KD AQT's with it. I recently starting working to try to get limber enough in my lower back to do a better seated position. The net result of that was my new high score sitting at a High Power Match (92 I think). My position is based on the article in this topic and then modified for my body. But remember, you only need to stay in it for 55 seconds and Vitamin I is your friend.


Mike

[Spartan]

Google  "Shooting Sports USA November 2009".  In it, is a great article on Postural Stability.  While this is an article on the standing position stability, it does talk about a number of stretches for rifle shooters to increase flexibility.   Though you dont want to be like a gummbi-you do want to be able to maintain a stable position enough that you do NOT have to use muscle input to remain there or to overcome another muscles tightness.
ie sitting position: using stomach muscles to pull you forward in order to overcome tightness in another area.  They talk about an IT Band stretch to help with tightness/pain in the lumbar region.  Rick Hawkins is one of the authors, if you get the chance to take the level 1 HP Rifle coach course from him it is worth it.  It is an excellent article and will help with the Standing/off hand position as well.

[jmdavis]

I found the online link. Very good article. http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_200911/#/16

I will be trying some of this.

Mike

[DryFire]

I have to agree with the dificulties in getting into the cross leg position as being those of lower back flexability. When I started with AS and shooting from positions I was not a flexible person in any way, in fact while I could flex enough to use crossed legs for my 10/22 I couldn't do it with my 20" A2, instead I went with crossed ankles. Long story short last summer I completely blew out a disk in my lower back and had to go in for surgery etc. After surgery when I went through physcial therapy, and they asked what sports I did and I mentioned rifle. They specifically went through the rehab with a goal of increasing the flexability in my lower back to get into the various field positions. As a result I can get into a nice tight seated position, with any rifle, unlike before we worked on my flexability. I have a bit of a gut shall we say but it is not hinderance to getting into postion it is the back that just won't let some people get there. The usual disclaimer still applies no position is more personal and more individualized than the seated. So when you have someone that can't get into the seated posistion due to tightness in the lower back make sure we let them know that just because they can't get it today doesn't mean that without persistance, stretching, and practice they can get there in the future.

My .02

[jmdavis]

All true Dryfire and I'm sorry about the back. I have struggled with pain from a similar incident since my early 20's.

One of the points of the attached article is to point out that many, if not most of the top shooters are using a crossed ankle position these days. The reason for that is that they win matches with it.

I have heard many instructors say that the crossed ankle is less steady than the cross legged position. Cooper alluded to this and that she was steered away from it  in an earlier post on this topic. That statement along with others such as only firing at the bottom of the breathing cycle (as opposed to setting respiratory pause and firing when the breathing cycle puts the front sight at your aiming point) is a disservice to our students. The truth is that crossed ankle may be more steady and more attainable for some shooters. The truth is also that we can use our breathing to fine tune our elevation, (particularly in slow fire) but also in Rapid Fire.

So much information is available to our instructors from sources that include the AMU, NRA, ISSF and other resources. But we have to seek it out, analyze it, test it, and make use of it if it is to help us in either our Marksmanship or heritage instruction.

One of my reasons behind posting specific article (and taking advantage of other training opportunities) is to improve my shooting. But an important side effect of that reason is that such knowledge improves my instruction as well.  I make posts in an attempt to share that knowledge.

Mike

[Old Dog]

I'm curious how they relax in the cross legged position.  Maybe that's a question of stretching as well.  I know I cannot relax my legs in the cross legged position as it just tears my hip joints up.  I've tried holding my legs/knees in a position/angle where there's no pain in my hip joints but then I get tired because I'm using my muscles to maintain the position.

If someone who uses this position could explain any issues they overcame and how they worked to overcome them I'd appreciate the explanation/description.

[eaglescouter]

If the position feels like your hips are being torn off, then you need to move to a different position as this one will not work for you.  Discomfort is understandable,but pain is not conducive to the steady hold factors.

[JustJeff]

The instructors in southern NM have touched on the crossed-ankle position, while going over the sitting and kneeling, at every shoot I've been to.  We demo the sitting, then cross-ankle for those who can't get completely into the sitting, then kneeling  for folks like me who can't do the first two.

[jmdavis]

The instructors in southern NM have touched on the crossed-ankle position, while going over the sitting and kneeling, at every shoot I've been to.  We demo the sitting, then cross-ankle for those who can't get completely into the sitting, then kneeling  for folks like me who can't do the first two.

Excellent! But do they also tell students that the crossed leg position is the "most" stable?

[JustJeff]

The instructors in southern NM have touched on the crossed-ankle position, while going over the sitting and kneeling, at every shoot I've been to.  We demo the sitting, then cross-ankle for those who can't get completely into the sitting, then kneeling  for folks like me who can't do the first two.

Excellent! But do they also tell students that the crossed leg position is the "most" stable?

yup...the reason we do it in that specific order is the degrees of stability----best to suitable.

[jmdavis]

yup...the reason we do it in that specific order is the degrees of stability----best to suitable.

But is it, "Best" to "suitable?" It would be difficult to argue that kneeling is less stable than sitting (though international shooters have shot 100's in kneeling). On the other hand, the stability difference between crossed leg and crossed ankle is much more questionable. If a majority or even significant number of the nations top shooters are using the crossed ankle position, it suggests that the "best" to "suitable" many instructors teach is flawed.

Perhaps it's just a matter of changing the framing.

Mike

[Roland]

I, personally, do right leg on top. But, then again, I'm flexible enough to get elbows on the ground when Shoot Boss allows. That's a good point on elevation, and a great article.

Roland