could/should targets account for drop?

[Kaylee]

Hi!

So after looking at the patch sitting on my shelf waiting for something to sew it to, I have to admit - I got to feeling I really didn't earn it.
Not when like all the *real* rifle folks I know can account for things like wind and range in their head it seems like. :p

So I'm trying to learn now, and feel like I actually deserve that piece of fabric.

And hence my next question.
I know we cover come-ups and sight adjustments in class - but for routine "target at 150 yards, then target at 400 yards" - is there already in the collective wisdom a way to account for that? Perhaps some kind of Redcoat Target that has a designated POA above or below the desired POI? I know it would be different rifle to rifle, but surely  "close enough" versions for  223s and 308s wouldn't be that hard to get consistent-ish math on?
(Surely not for first day introductions, but maybe as a "you've mastered A, work on B" target?)


Or is that a totally backwards way of approaching the problem?

[Nickle]

Shooting KD is a little different than shooting at 25 meters.

Drop and wind are a couple of the things that differ.

I recommend doing some studying on this site on how to do (and teach) KD. Then, I recommend working on your KD skills.

The come-ups we teach are pretty generic, but they will also get you pretty close. Close enough for many rifles, though it pays to figure out your rifle's exact come-ups. They may vary a click or two from what we teach.

[Fred]

     The longer I'm in this program, the simpler the rifleman's task gets (notice, I did not say the easier it gets! ). The simple answer is, "battlesight zero" will take you out to 300 yards with little if any need to holdover or under, unless the target is bucket-sized, rather than full-sized.

    Beyond 300, you estimate range - is it 400? Is it 500? (Beyond 500, as a rifleman, you can take the shot with a 91% no-wind hit probability, but ordinarily you stick to 500 or less.)

    So, knowing your "rifleman's trajectory" - 3, 3, 3, 4 - all you really need to worry much about is the "3" to go from 300 to 400, and the additional "4" to take you out to 500.

    It's about as simple as it gets.

    Wind is handled in the same simplified way, with the modestly-named "Fred's simplified wind rule" - I'll let you search that out on the forum...

[SavageShootr]

Kaylee...

When Appleseed returns to Alaska in October, you might want to consider joining the KD segment.

SS

[SavageShootr]

Fred's simplified wind rule really works.

[techres]

Video recorded at events are also available as needed to get a good grasp on KD.  Best to get it in person, but otherwise we do have "distance learning" options. 

[Old Dog]

I "struggled" with this idea a little not long after the Feb. 2007 RBC at Ramseur.

I wanted an AQT type target for the simulated ranges on the 25 meter AQT targets we use that would allow the "testing" of folks ability to correctly adjust their sights for varying ranges.

The idea, as I worked on it, was to have a solid color target, of the same size we use know for each range with a very faint (meaning not visible from the firing line) outline of the same sized target at the correct distance above the solid target to correctly allow the "scoring" of hits made inside the outline while aiming at the solid target.

This issue became (in my mind anyway) is considering the groups you usually see at 25 meters how do you really see/score the groups? 

I eventually gave up on the idea once I believed the shooter would have to be able to shoot pretty good groups for me to see the difference.  Who knows, maybe I was wrong.

[AFTERMATH]

The QDAQT is harder than the FDAQT....  You've earned the patch.
Now just follow the advise, previously laid down in this thread and you'll have no difficulty working on the 'real' thing.

[duc-dog]

If you have the patch,  you already know the answer.  Full distance is merely the proper come ups and windage.  Take it one step at a time and learn your rifle.  Start at different distances in a "no wind" condition to learn your come-ups, then work at it in steady wind conditions until you can feel and recognize the wind conditions.  After you get comfortable with that work in  gusty conditions at different distances. Then go out to really long range and learn about gyroscopic progression, spin drift, effects of temps, barometric pressures lighting conditions and a million other factors affecting each shot.  After you do all of that come down and teach me.  Like Fred said, "the more you do it the simpler it becomes" (just not easier!)    I have spent a life time shooting and have enjoyed every second of it.  Being a Rifleman is like that line from the movie Bagger Vance, " It's a game that can only be played but never won"  Good luck, and more importantly, "Have Fun", then pass it on to others.
    Milt   

[Rafn]

If you want to play with windage and elevation, I'll bring one of the springers - the .25 RWS 48 has a noticeably arced trajectory at 50 yards.  If we borrow one of the chronographs we can work out the info for your rifle too.

[davecampperry]

Take two. When I cannot get a student's rifle to exact center, I use what is called 'to best advantage'. Shoot your group, then center it onto an unfired target, then score it. Many older rifles will not 'center' on the target, and if you go back far enough, the rifle will print several inches high at 25 yards.