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What rifle?

Started by LawDog, April 30, 2011, 10:24:32 AM

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LawDog

My son is 8.  He demonstrates excellent safety with rifles and pistols.  He would really like to attend a Shoot, and I want to encourage him.  I have read a lot of the excellent tips here and elsewhere about bringing a young child.  The problem: what rifle to bring?  I have a Marlin 795 but it is really too long and heavy for him.  He could better handle a Cricket or Chipmunk, but they are single shot.  Is that okay?  Am I better off running down a wood stock for the Marlin and cutting it down?  I hesitate to buy a S-W 15-22 (though he would love it!), but it does have an LOP as short as a Chipmunk. 
Thoughts? 

sashok.privetov

#1
Well, this is an appleseed, so bring whatever you have.  However, since there is a rapid fire stage, you might want a semi auto.
Chopping down a perfectly good stock is simply barbarian, so I would get a youth stock instead. 
I couldn't find any youth aftermarket stocks for the marlin, although they did make a youth version of the rifle. http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/marlin/82869-marlin-60-795-accessories.html

Blackhawk makes an excellent Axiom stock for 10/22: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=axiom+10%2F22+stock&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=, if you want to get that rifle.  The advantage of that stock is that he can use the rifle no matter what his age.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=18519.0
There is a saying in Russia, a notion really--Texan Politeness:
If you know that everyone around you has a gun, and everyone around you knows that you have a gun, everyone is very polite to each other.

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.  --Thomas Jefferson

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Wade

I am Said barbarian !  :o  Buy a used wood stock if you can find one cheap enough and cut it down ,Save some money and spend the savings on ammo,,,don't spend more then you Need to ;)
Try posting in deals and steals you never know some one miaght have what your looking for .

Wade
Got Tired of looking for a Rifle Range So we Dug one up!
WOOF!
4 box's #1 the soap box#2 the letter box #3 the ballot box #4 the cartridge box, The founding fathers picked up the Cartridge box so that WE could use the first 3,,IMO If you don't use those 3 then you dishonour the founding Fathers !

LawDog

I just found a Ruger with a Tapco adjustable stock that looks like it might fit him.  $289.  A bit more than another Marlin and an extra wooden stock cut down, but not bad.  Now if it is still on the shelf when I get back there tonight, I can use the Marlin and he can have the Ruger. 

9mm4545

I have a 10/22 with a Tapco stock that I use as a loaner. Nice thing is that the rifle can grow with the user. Good luck.
The American Constitution is remarkable for its simplicity; but can only suffice a people habitually correct in their actions, and would be utterly inadequate to the wants of a different nation.  Change the domestic habits of the Americans, their religious devotion, and their high respect for morality, and it will not be necessary to change a single letter in the Constitution in order to vary the whole form of their government. - Francis Grund 1837

GoldFish

With regard to the Cricket, take a look at this:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=18770.0

Single shots are perfectly OK (though it will slow him down a little bit which may affect him on the timed courses-of-fire).
I've seen Marlin stocks cut down and children shooting really well, but I personally don't like the idea of cutting down stocks, mainly because once they're cut, you can't lengthen them again. 
Why are you hesitant to buy an S&W M&P 15-22?  IMO, that's one of the best rifles you can bring to an Appleseed shoot.
Whatever you end up doing, bring you and your son out to a shoot.  You'll both love it regardless of the rifle you're shooting.


---GF
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LawDog

I bought the Ruger with the Tapco stock.  At $289, it is far cheaper than the S&W and parts/add-ons will be easy to find.  The LOP goes as short as 10.75", which is about what he needs.  He thinks it is the coolest rifle ever and we are one big step closer to getting to a Shoot together.  I have my eye on Tuscaloosa in late May, if the good people of AL have dug out in time. 
Thanks for all the help here.  Stay safe and be well.

sashok.privetov

Good choice. I would suggest you get the Tech Sights for it: http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm
Stock Ruger sights are at the level of development of mid-19th century.
There is a saying in Russia, a notion really--Texan Politeness:
If you know that everyone around you has a gun, and everyone around you knows that you have a gun, everyone is very polite to each other.

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.  --Thomas Jefferson

This message was sent with 100% recycled electrons.

CSHR

Good luck with the Rugar, hope it does well for him.

IF....I'd of seen this thread sooner I'd of pointed you here to have a look:   http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-scout/

Noticed LOP is 12" here.

I own several different CZ'z and they are very accurate and a work of craftsmanship similar to years ago....this will most likely be the next one for the grandkids.

Congratulations to you and him.

CSHR

"But rightful Liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the law" because the law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." -- Thomas Jefferson

nmmi9100

That ruger with the Tapco ought to work well.

My 6 year old is running a CMMG dedicated 22LR AR15 w/EoTech 552 when he accompanies me to Appleseeds and with a Magpul CTR at position 1, the LOP is good for him.

The Tapco has a collapsible stock.  I've considered one for a loaner.  Should work great!

-David

The Wolfhound

+1 on the CZ Scout 452.  They are very well made, supurbely accurate and handle well in the hands of smaller shooters.  Not as inexpensive as a Chipmunk but you can get 10 round magazines for it.  Our first CZ was a Pink Scout 452, we were impressed enough that we now own 3 CZs including a 512 autoloader.  People laughed at the Pink rifle until they saw the targets, then it was our turn to laugh.  In theory TechSights should work on it.

techres

My 2 cents:

1. Either the cricket or the 15-22 will work in accuracy, they are matched there.  Either can produce a rifleman score, that has been proved.

2. Either will work to have a good time with, most kids are just glad to be out putting holes in paper with dad and the history is awesome to boot.  Don't lose sleep over this decision.

3. The cricket is better for position work as it is the lightest thing out there so if a kid wants to get off the bipod or sandbag, a cricket is the best for it, but even there the weight is often too far forward.  Working on a solution for this.  The other options are all too heavy for small arms and run to far forward of small kid's center of mass.

4. With either, have a mountable bipod with you, way safer and funner than sandbags.

5. The 15-22 or any semi is able to launch more lead and that is nice, but not the goal as long as you set expectations properly with the shooter.  I will say this, if you start them on the 15-22 it will effect how they operate a cricket later (see picture here).

6. The biggest issue I see with kids is stock length.  That is more important than anything and both the cricket and the 15-22 solve this well. 

7. Know what your goals are going in and know they are probably more important than for the kid.  They will love the event no matter what you bring for them.  And also know a loaner 10-22 is usually possible if you talk to the SB ahead of time.

Have fun and just make sure to be ready for them to go at their own pace and take as many breaks off the line as they need to.  Having fun is more important than anything other than safety at that age.

Looking forward to seeing pics!

Joshua/Techres
Appleseed: Bringing the Past into the Present to save our Future.

Charles McKinley

ATI also makes a collapsible stock for the 10/22.  I think the shortest length of pull is 10 3/4 inches.  My 8 year old daughter uses it on the second from shortest length.

The nice thing about the ATI is it uses standard sling post rather than the sling clips you have to buy for the Tapco.  Some model of the ATI also fold.
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

DBoller

I would recommend that you get a good quality optic to put on it. A scope goes a long way when your a beginner.

SPQR

If you start chopping on stocks or buyin other stocks for an 8 year old who is going to grow nine feet in the next five years you may be goming around for no good reason.  Set reasonable expectations.  if the 795 is just too big cutting on stocks or getting the tapco are guess type solutions, you don't know that they will work.  It may not be about the weight or length of pull, it may be about WHERE the weight is and what kind of balance he has with the rifle.  If you brought your kid and had him shoot a crickett or a 795 off a bag or bipod and he spent a weekend learning perfect trigger control, breathing cadence, sight alignment, relaxation, and natural point of aim isn't that a huge win?  So what if he has trouble with standing?  That will come with more beef.
"It is amazing to watch the intricate dance of the Indiana instructors playing off each other's strengths. No ego involved. Just doing what needs to be done by the person best suited to do it to give the shooters what they need." - Miki

"Indiana rules!" - Nero

"We all need Bedford." - brianheeter

techres

Don't over fret the gear.  If they can shot safe, and get comfortable then before you know it they will be having fun with the bigger guns.  My daughter started last year on a 15-22 suppressed because I feared her reaction to noise and recoil.  Two seeds later, this is her on an AR15 doing 100-200 yard steel.

Note: Stock length is vital.  Somehow the stock length got changed between the 100 yard shot and the 200 yard one.  With the stock shortened slightly, the rifle slapped her and it was not comfortable.  It was OK, but I should have caught it then.

A Girl, An AR, Some Steel, KD...
Appleseed: Bringing the Past into the Present to save our Future.

Ratchett

LawDog,

SPQR makes an excellent point. Learning the fundamental skills in prone on sandbags is a great way to begin and not learn bad habits. What gear used is not as important as the skills learned. The final decision will ultimately be with the Shoot Boss after safety evaluation of shooters on Saturday morning. 

If you are looking for a light weight stock that will grow with your young shooter, the following has been a tried and true friend for youngsters and folks in need of adaptives on lines I have instructed. 

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Axiom-RF-Ruger-1022-Rifle-Stock,1371,166.htm

Not intended as an endorsement of this web site but best picture I had on hand. The 10/22 I have set up with this stock is 3.5 pounds total and is easily handled by all that have shot it.

Just a thought :)

Remember only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: JESUS CHRIST and the AMERICAN ARMED FORCES.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom-Unk

"The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."---Geo Washington, 1789

Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles.---Isaiah 40:31

A wrathful man stirs up strife,
But he who is slow to anger allays contention.---Prov15:18

"Wisdom is higher than a fool can reach." --P. Wheatley

Charles McKinley

#17
If you want a bolt the Mossberg 801 Plinkster Half-Pint is an excellent little rifle!

I shot a 228 with it on Sunday!  Dunhams has it out the door for $130 and change with a 4X scope.  it comes with a single feed dummy magazine insert, but you can buy 10 round magazine from Mossberg for $12 each plus shipping.  I bought 4 magazines. one is slightly problematic but the other 3 are flawless.

You are not to dryfire this rifle.  You need to use the dummy rounds to protect the firing pin.  I emailed to ask.

I full review will be posted soon.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about it.
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

LawDog

Here is an update:
I bought my son the Ruger with the adjustable Tapco stock.  We attended the Eunice, LA Shoot in June.  He shot everything prone off a sandbag or kneeling.  He handled the rifle safely and had a great time.  He certainly paid attention to the instruction as well.  We will be in Mobile for the Shoot this weekend.  Thanks for all the great advice!

WAshooter

Quote from: Wade on April 30, 2011, 12:44:41 PM
I am Said barbarian !  :o  Buy a used wood stock if you can find one cheap enough and cut it down ,Save some money

That is what I did wood stocks for 1022s are cheap on eBay all those folks going aftermarket replacements

nyrasgt

Law Dog et. al.,
   FWIW, instructors attaining red hat instructor status become eligible for Instructor Discount Programs identical to those offered by manufacturers to NRA Intructors.  At present, Ruger has provided  2012 program sheet.  Ruger will sell you pretty much anything they make if you ask nicely; e.g. their compact 10-22, the CRR model, will cost an instructor right around $200.
    Henry's President, Anthony Imperato(who answers all emails sent to Henry - pretty classy) has said he will honor the 2010 instructor sheet prices.  He, too,will sell you nearly anything they make, if you ask.  I know that techres is working on adapting a wood stock to their AR7 survival rifle for use with young shooters.
    S&W, the third company that recognizes PA instructors,is working on their 2012 sheet - which i am told (by them) will also include their subsidiaries, Walther and Thompson Contender...will pass along sheet when I receive it from Smith.
   And just as a tease - the Ruger-TALO Appleseed Training Rifle is still in the works:  Appleseed ID, studs, swivels, sling, 2 mags, tech sights or equivalent, Appleseed info and card good for 1-2 free attendances @ Appleseed event - thus saving purchaser money...stay tuned, and

Excelsior,
madMark
PS  Can forward copies of current Ruger and Henry program sheets; send email addresses...
"Aim for a high mark and you will hit it.  No, not the first time, nor the second, and maybe not the third. But keep on aiming and keep on shooting,
for only practice will make you perfect.
Finally, you will hit the bulls-eye of success."
-Annie Oakley Butler
A Rifleman Persists
"Nemo me impune lacessit."  Montresor, via E. A. Poe, 1846

MustangAME2

A little late, maybe but...
I 'm a huge fan of Ruger, BUT bought my 7 year-old daughter a Marlin 795 for three reasons:

1. initial cost
2. weight
3. replacement part cost

I cut the stock 7/8" with a miter saw (honestly, a hand saw and tape measure would work on the composite stock), and with a drill and a file made it look "factory" with very little effort.  Replacement stocks are ~$38, so when she grows, replacement won't stretch the budget. Heck, I might even pony up for the Ruger if she sticks with it.

A con of the Marlin 795: magazine release is difficult. My daughter's hands are sore by lunchtime...but she doesn't want to stop shooting! 
"It's better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission"

The Wolfhound

A very gentle sanding of the mag well will make it so you can tilt and pull the mag easily with one hand.  The 795 is a good shooter you will be very pleased with it.

Nero

Quote from: WAshooter on January 28, 2012, 02:23:06 AM
Quote from: Wade on April 30, 2011, 12:44:41 PM
I am Said barbarian !  :o  Buy a used wood stock if you can find one cheap enough and cut it down ,Save some money

That is what I did wood stocks for 1022s are cheap on eBay all those folks going aftermarket replacements

The catch with using a cut-down standard 10/22 stock for youth shooters is that the stock and grip area are rather wide/fat due to the rotary magazine's width.  Someone with small hands has a tough time avoiding draggin' wood. 

The Compact 10/22 mentioned by nyrasgt is a good bet.  The stock is designed for a smaller hand.  They are also nice shooters, in spite of the short barrel.  I built up one of those and two carbines as LTRs over the holidays. The Compact outshot the carbines when I broke them in:  A large ragged hole from 5 rounds of my match ammo at 60 ft, and 2MOA using cheap Federal bulk stuff.

Also +1 on the 795s.  The stock width and grip area are better sized for a youth or smaller female shooter than most of the 10/22s, since they use a traditional mag.  Once you put decent sights on them, they are accurate - 4MOA easily with bulk ammo and even given the rather stiff trigger.  Just figure you're going to spend time coaching trigger control for a shooter with a new 795.

(NB:  In addition to 'seeding I run a light rifle class at our range, with a lot of youth shooters. )
"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters." —Frederick Douglass