The science of Scope Mounting for NPOA.

[2 clicks low]

I have observed many shooters on the line fighting scope issues. Some we fix with cheek weld build up and sometimes stock lengthening (butt pad). These are temporary at best. I have met very few shooters (outside of gunsmiths) who know how to mount scopes.

I wear progressive bifocals. As I hate to take them off just to shoot and I wouldn't be able to hunt without them (gotta see the game), I adjust the scope to account for the glasses. As you should also be wearing shooting glasses I give direction with them.

I have noticed that many people buy a scope & mount and slap it on, adjusting their hold to accommodate the scope. This is less than ideal.

I believe that you have to buy the mount & rings that fit the scope to you.

With the help of a friend get into the prone position (or position you will use most), extend your neck all the way (turkey neck) and establish a cheek weld over the barrel, disregard the iron sights. Have your friend make a crayon mark where your eye glasses comes on the stock. This you will use to establish eye relief for the scope placement.

Next, while maintaining the position have your friend measure from the mark up to the center of your iris as seen thru your glasses.

Time to do the math. Take a straight edge even with the top of the receiver and measure the height to the mark. Subtract this from the distance from your iris center to the mark. This is height you want the center of your scope. Your ideal mount/rail/base  height is this number - the radius of the scope tube. 1" scope has 1/2" radius.

Mounts list their height somewhere in the manufactures catalog. Same with rings (although many list low, med, high or size of objective lens, it is somewhere in the catalog or brownells  pages). Look for a combination of rails, mounts and rings that add up to your ideal mount height.

While doing this keep in mind the scope's eye relief. This is listed in the manufactures catalog, owners manual and probably on the box. It might be listed as 3 1/4 - 3 3/4". Whatever it is, take the center of the range, in this case 3 1/2" and make a crayon mark on the stock in this case  3 1/2" forward of the existing mark. This is where you want the back of the scope.

Now you have the ideal height & placement. You can choose regular or extended rails or mounts as needed to hit the placement. I have seen rifles setup for kids that have the extended mount going backwards to accommodate a 10 year old.


This will enable your NPOA as the sights are set to your turkey neck and cheek weld and not the other way around.

Comments welcome.

2cl

Good video, thanks Castle Mountain:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COoXVpGfXQE

[Shooter30-06]

Good post Ron!  My observation is that most scope mounts are too high to get the proper cheek meld.  I am also a believer in the Weaver scope base and ring system.  The cross bar helps keep the scope from sliding on the rail.

[oladcock]

Yep, see this all the time and if possible we'll move them on the line as needed. I'd add that variable scopes vary eye relief with power so "pick a power" and stick to it. Many of the cheaper scopes will also change POI as you change power.....O.L.

[2 clicks low]

Yep, see this all the time and if possible we'll move them on the line as needed. I'd add that variable scopes vary eye relief with power so "pick a power" and stick to it. Many of the cheaper scopes will also change POI as you change power.....O.L.

Thanks O.L.

I too have moved a scope on the line. Sometime there is not enough adjustment room to move it forward. I have put both rings behind the turrets and even used only 1 ring when needed. All of which are temp fixes. This is to be about how to do it right the first time.

When I get a few more comments I will edit them in. Especially you note on variable scopes. Something to the effect that when positioning the scope to the center of the eye relief range, also center the scope in it's variable range, 3-9 should be at 6.

I'll have to work on wording for the caveat on cheap scopes. I too have seen this and you are right, it should be addressed.

Thanks for the help.

[The Wolfhound]

Cheap scopes can still lead to Rifleman scores.  Nearly all our .22s are scoped, most with quite low cost scopes.  Adding a riser to the stock has made all of them solid performers.  We have been using the "ACCU RISER" (about $35.00) in various versions and I now keep several as spares for that "next" rifle.

[TaosGlock]

Yup! Right on!

We routinely see scopes mounted waay too far back. And most rifles that come with irons nearly always have way too low a comb.
We use pipe tubing foam and tape to get a proper cheek weld on their rifles. And like OL says we move scopes forward for them them when we can.
And like you said it is often rings higher than needed.
I keep spare low and med. rings in my shoot box.

As far as stocks, the stocks we see are often too long and less obvious but more important
they have too thick a grip for kids and smaller adults. It can be hard to hold the rifle and perform proper trigger squeeze.
Not to mention many rifles lack sling swivel studs.

What you can get by with shooting on a 1 ton concrete bench fails miserably in the positions we teach.
All these little things add up in a big way. When they get to the AQT, where the rubber finally meets the road, it all becomes apparent.

We often tell our students as a group that they need to make these changes to their rifles.

Appleseed for many is about learning the limitations of your equipment and how to adapt or change it for the better.
Once these quick fixes are done (except for stock mods) shooters often rave about how much better they shoot and their targets tell them.

Too bad the manufacturers can't make rifles for field shooting. Simple stuff really.
Perhaps the manufacturers have nailed us, we are a nation of hobby shooters rather than a nation of Riflemen.
Keep on Appleseeding!

Good post.

[Nickle]

Well, you certainly don't need a great scope to get the job done. My girfriend's 10/22 is pretty much legendary up my way, made a ton of Riflemen with it. It made most of them with a cheap Simmons 4X .22 scope, until it finally fogged. I call it "the pimp gun", as it's a stainless 10/22 International with a two tone gray laminated stock. Very accurate rifle. It now wears a Bushnell 4X, took the Leupold 2-7 off it, and back on my 243 Rem 600.

[oladcock]

I know we try to push "rack grade rifle and surplus ammo"...And I feel we should. But some of these guns that show up are so far away from fitting that any of us under the same circumstances would do poorly, especially rifles that are too long. When I see a mis-fit, I do my best to either fix it or get another rifle into their hands. Not always possible. We try to keep a stock of slings, rings, sling swivels, and studs handy. The more frustration we can quickly and easily fix, the better experience they will have. Personally I had a family member way off yonder attended an AS at my encourgement, the experience wasn't a pleasant one due to a simple rifle problem. I was able to talk them through the problem on the phone/on-line, their second experience went much better, otherwise they wouldn't have had a second experience. We're trying to share knowledge and experience that should go beyond what is in the POI but we need to be careful that it's correct! .....O.L.

[2 clicks low]

At no point have I ever said that you need a good scope, great scope or expensive scope. All have and do work. So do Iron sights.

The caveat O.L. brought up is that some cheaper scopes move zero as magnification changes.

We all know and do line mod's. There are many stock issues. This piece is to be about scope mounting the correct way, no trial and error.

Perhaps stock fitting should be a prerequisite, someone should address a piece about stock fitting. Unfortunately that person is not me.

2cl

[MacMcM]

My experience has been on "most" 10-22's the rear of the scope is just about even with the rear of the receiver to get good eye relief. With my Simmons scope, I needed an extended rail to achieve that.

Mac

[ksuguy]

Good post.  Honestly,  ill fitting rifles and eye relief issues have been the biggest problems I have had to overcome.   I'm 6'4" and have really long arms, so almost everything out there is too short for me.  When I first shot my rifleman score back in 2009, I taped a spare FAL recoil pad and a bunch of foam on to the back of my 10/22.   gpbiker also lent me his 10/22 at the Eureka RBC last week and I was able to do pretty well with that.  He's got a Fajen thumbhole stock on it with a couple of extra plastic spacers to make it even longer.    That worked pretty well for me and I was able to shoot several rifleman scores throughout the week with it.

This also causes problems with centerfires.   I was shooting one of my M1 Garands last week too, and I wasn't doing very well when I was trying to shoot the AQT with it.   Fortunately one of the instructors was watching and pointed out what was wrong.  Due to my long monkey arms, the M1 was a couple inches too short and it was constantly bouncing out of my shoulder pocket.   Tightening up the sling helped some, but it didn't eliminate the problem.   

I did quite a bit better with my M1A since it has one of these on the back:  http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=180428   That gives me some extra length and the rifle fits me much better.   Looks like I'm going to have to buy a bunch of recoil pads so I can make the rifles I own long enough.   

[oladcock]

"I'm 6'4" and have really long arms, so almost everything out there is too short for me."

Same here 6'4"+, had to move scope all the way forward then put a LimbSaver slip on butt pad which adds 1". That was workable. Ditched the scope and put techsights on her, works like a champ. When I loan it out to normal folks, I pull the pad off of it.

My wife with her scoped 10-22, I sawed 2" off the butt then the Limbsaver for a 1" net shortening. I want to get another and cut 3" off it for the smaller kids/ladies.

For what it's worth, when I have time to help someone ahead of time or after hours, I'll have them get in position, eyes closed, get comfy, open eyes and tell me what they see, then start moving the scope around and or building up a cheek rest. Rinse and repete till the scope falls in line without a bunch of head bobbing and turkey necking to get it right.....O.L.

[ksuguy]

That's probably a good idea.  When I was going to my first Appleseeds and learning how to shoot properly, I was just not very consistent and couldn't figure out why.   One time I'd shoot a group smaller than a dime,  then with the next group I'd have a spread out buckshot pattern.

The instructors were stumped too until I mentioned what I was seeing through the scope.   Turns out my stock was too short and I was trying to hold my head back in order to get some kind of decent sight picture through the scope, and that was with the scope as far forward as I could get it.   If I actually held the rifle in a comfortable position,  my view through the scope got all wonky.   

Prior to that all my shooting was off a bench and I didn't really know any better. 

[ashrn03]

As a chronic stock-crawler I put this together to provide the necessary eye-relief.  It's a steel-tube Weaver K-3 on an EGW M1913 rail and cheap Weaver aluminum rings.  The ring knobs are on the other side of the rail so they don't interfere with the charging handle.  This is not a loaner: even using a steel-tube scope the cantilever mounting is precarious at best.  The rear occular nestles into the groove milled in the rail with about 0.025" clearance.  The scope is low enough that I don't need to build up the stock. 

The forward sling adapter is simple too: a 1-1/4""D" ring, a tri-folded piece of 3/4" leather about 5-1/2" long, and a chicago screw.  The "D" ring and chicago screws are available at Tandy's.

   

[techres]

50%+ of the scopes I see on the line are mounted too far back and too high for the shooters.  Pads can bring the head up to the scope, but the scope has to go forward.  Even with kids rifles the scopes often have to go forward and if that means them hanging off the front, then so be it:

[2 clicks low]

Techres,

I agree. It's the point of this "papper". I am trying to convey the theory of scope mounting as way too many people buy a scope and the mounts on sale at Wally World and slap them together and fight "scope NPOA" for ever.

My "line cure" for a scope too far back is move it if there is room or build up the butt if there is not. I carry a 1" slipon butt pad for this pourpose alone.

2cl

[techres]

Techres,

I agree. It's the point of this "papper". I am trying to convey the theory of scope mounting as way too many people buy a scope and the mounts on sale at Wally World and slap them together and fight "scope NPOA" for ever.

My "line cure" for a scope too far back is move it if there is room or build up the butt if there is not. I carry a 1" slipon butt pad for this pourpose alone.

2cl

Thanks for posting it.  Using a slip on pad had not occurred to me before.  That is a great idea!

You learn something new every day...   

[oladcock]

Another little trick when setting them up...We've all seen the scopes "walk" in the rings, get some rosin, the same kind weight lifters and gymnists use, put that on the rings before assembly both top and bottom and tighten her down. I've never had a scope walk using this suff and not as messy as superglue or locktite...O.L.

[TN_Dadx5]

I would to ask you all for some advice on a scope mounting issue.  I'm not new to scope mounting and mount pretty much like you've spelled out here thus never had had any real problems except for bad hardware.

The problem that I've got is with mounting a scope on my AR.  I want to be able to use the bachup battle sights as well as a scope.  I also want to be able to pull the scope on and off without having to re-zero every time.  So what I got was a Nikon Buckmaster and the Burris QD mount (AR-P.E.P.R.).  It mounts fine, I was a little worried that it might raise the eye line above the back up sights but it's right in line.

But when I went to sight it in using the center square of the squares target, my first shots were just nibbling at the bottom of the target.  That's 20 MOA low!  I've never mounted a scope and had it that low.  The distance was 25 yd.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
Charlie

[2 clicks low]

20 MOA does indeed ring a bell.

Mounts, bases and rings are available with a slant built in. The most common is 20MOA. These are used to correct when regular mounts leave you needing gross adjustment of the scope such as due to barrel sag.

Get the exact model number of the Mounts/Bases/Rings and look them up online at the manufactors site or Optics Planet or Brownells.

If the mounts/bases/rings are not of the 20MOA veriity, you may want to look into a m/b/r that has 20MOA up built in.

2cl

I would to ask you all for some advice on a scope mounting issue.  I'm not new to scope mounting and mount pretty much like you've spelled out here thus never had had any real problems except for bad hardware.

The problem that I've got is with mounting a scope on my AR.  I want to be able to use the bachup battle sights as well as a scope.  I also want to be able to pull the scope on and off without having to re-zero every time.  So what I got was a Nikon Buckmaster and the Burris QD mount (AR-P.E.P.R.).  It mounts fine, I was a little worried that it might raise the eye line above the back up sights but it's right in line.

But when I went to sight it in using the center square of the squares target, my first shots were just nibbling at the bottom of the target.  That's 20 MOA low!  I've never mounted a scope and had it that low.  The distance was 25 yd.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
Charlie

[scuzzy]

50%+ of the scopes I see on the line are mounted too far back and too high for the shooters.  Pads can bring the head up to the scope, but the scope has to go forward.  Even with kids rifles the scopes often have to go forward and if that means them hanging off the front, then so be it:

I'd actually used the setup shown to get my patch. My scope was too far back and one of the SBs, Reddot, suggested clamping both rings around the rear of the scope so I could get it mounted right. Without having both ring clamps on the rear part of the scope I couldn't move it far forward enough.

Before I did so I sure wasn't doing the Turkey Neck thing. It was more like a 'Turtle Neck' so I could get my head far enough back even see through the scope correctly.

[oladcock]

Tn-dadXabunch, sometimes we're at the mercy of how accurate the upper is machined, the mount, and the rings. All have +- tolerances. You can sometimes come up with a combination that's way off.

Did you set the scope for mid range in the up/down adjustments? They should be out of the box but that's not 100%. Turn the up/down adjustment till it stops one way or another, count the clicks all the way to the other stop, count back 1/2 the clicks. You might know how to do that but others might not.

Then do your bore sighting trick and see how far off it is. If it's still a way off, you can lay a layer of tape on the bottom of the rear ring to elevate the back end of the scope. Other than that, you may just have a combination of parts that are "off".  80 clicks is going to be a bunch to bring her in line...O.L.

[Old Dog]

Didn't catch it if already suggested but the first thing I do when I've encountered this in the past is to swap the rings front to back.  Take the scope out of the rings, move the front ring to the rear and the rear ring to the front and see if its the rings or if a mistake in ring manufacture might compensate for an issue with the mounting surfaces.

[oladcock]

Didn't catch it if already suggested but the first thing I do when I've encountered this in the past is to swap the rings front to back.  Take the scope out of the rings, move the front ring to the rear and the rear ring to the front and see if its the rings or if a mistake in ring manufacture might compensate for an issue with the mounting surfaces.

Yep, seen that work too as well as getting left/right issues within the adjustment range of the scope. If we're talking TN_dad's issues, that's not an option as the front/back are integral mounts that can't be swapped...O.L.

[TN_Dadx5]

I appreciate all the posts replying to my question.  It turns out the the scope's adjustment wasn't centered.  It has 80 MOA of internal adjustment, so I won't have problems. 

I have a new question about sighting it in for KD.  We're having a 3 day seed over Labor Day weekend with KD out to 600 on Monday.  What would be the best sight in distance, 100 or 250?

Thanks,
Charlie

[oladcock]

I appreciate all the posts replying to my question.  It turns out the the scope's adjustment wasn't centered.  It has 80 MOA of internal adjustment, so I won't have problems. 

I have a new question about sighting it in for KD.  We're having a 3 day seed over Labor Day weekend with KD out to 600 on Monday.  What would be the best sight in distance, 100 or 250?

Thanks,
Charlie

Of course every rifle will be a bit different and personal prefference comes into play. The rule of thumb for the 15's is 25 meter zero will put you back on at 300, that's your battle sight zero. Hold center of mass from 0 to about 350 a you'll get a hit. There is an MOA rule of thumb but I don't remember the exact numbers.

What your holdovers will be you'll need to discover on you own. Mine is a 20" barrel and the scope is high, both of which will effect the above ball park rule. Mine is dead on at 25, +6" at 100, +10" at 200, +4" at 300, dead on again at 350, -6" at 400 and about -24 at 500. I have no idea at 600 but a couple of Riflemans dances will get me there! Those numbers may be off an inch or two, I use the Redfield 2-7x "AccuPlex" scope and between the crosshairs, the circle, and the dot, know where to hold for each range and ring that steel all day! Have fun! ...O.L.