AR build?

[Old Dog]

Don't get me started.  

AR's are for 5.56 caliber bullets and M1As (or M1's) are for 30 caliber bullets.  You guys are gonna get me confused if you keep crossing them up. 

I do my best to stay away from anything that is so new its only been out there for 2 or 3 years.  Way too many problems with new designs that are not thoroughly tested prior to release to the public for use.

Another serious note, a 5.56X45 AR can make use of one of the conversion kits to shoot cheap and plentiful .22 rimfire ammo for much of the practice, another good reason to stick with that caliber.  This is not meant to start a caliber war here, just to say there are some advantages to the 5.56 versions of this design.

The spare parts are also cheaper and easier to get.  $10 magazines?  Yep, just got ten 30 round mags. in the mail the other day for $109 (ordered awhile back).

On another note.  I put this thing together, shot it once at the range, the initial groups were 2 ft. high at 25 meters (lucky to have a scope with lots of adjustment to it), the bolt began to disassemble itself in the first 20 rounds and I had to stop shooting till I figured out why I was having to manually work every round into and out of the chamber.  And worst of all, the groups flat out SFA (that is sucked for air) in "old" Army slang.  Tried Winchester factory 55 fmj and some reloads with Winchester 55 fmj bullets and IMR 4895 powder (I believe).  I've fixed the bolt issues but never got around to shooting it again (make a note - shoot the vARmint rifle, soon).

How bad were the groups at 25 meters?  Uhh, nickle to quarter sized.  The rifle should be doing that somewhere out past 150, or 175 yds. at least.  No way a CAR 15 with a 10.5" barrel and no sling should shoot better groups than 24" SS heavy barrel with full floated handguard and bipod.  But it does.  Oh well, work for another day, another range.

Ya'll have a good one, and remember the idea behind building your own AR - 1) save some money getting exactly what you want in an AR - whatever that may be, 2) you'll know that rifle way better than buying one since you put it together with your own hands and tools, 3) learn to shoot it - real well, so folks will ask you where you learned to shoot like that and you can tell'em.....APPLESEED!!

[Southern Grey]

Which outfit has the best overall pricing on AR15 kits? I just bought a lower and am wanting to get started building one.

[EEL]

Try Model 1 Sales in Texas.  Standard 20" kit  $460.00  903-546-2087.  Good luck as most everyone is on a 12 week back log

[Southern Grey]

They certainly seem to have a wider array of optional equipment with which one can build what one wants and the prices are not as stiff as I've encountered elsewhere.

I tried to post a picture of the rifle I'm desirous of (besides a Springfield Armory M1A), but for some reason could not.

[Southern Grey]

Chrome bolt and carrier a good investment? It's a $50 upcharge.

[EEL]

I don't believe so.  Now a chrome bore and chamber.....YES

[Southern Grey]

I'm building with a stainless steel HBAR barrel, not carbon steel.

[FiremanBill]

SouthernGrey -

I recommend AR-15 Complete Assembly Guide (Kuleck & McKee).

Very thorough discussion of materials and how to choose from the multitude of materials, etc. which can be had.

Also contains excellent coverage of how to build and essential tools you'll want to use.

FB

[Southern Grey]

While certainly a good idea (I've looked at the book at Amazon.com), is there something in particular that I've written that caused you to tell me of the book?

This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:

1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; A3 w/YHM removable flip rear sight, $75.00 option; Steel gas block w/YHM flip front sight, $65.00 option; Standard bolt & carrier; Wook ambi extended latch chg hndl, $6.00 option; Aluminum free float tube, $25.00 option; 6 position M-4 stock, $25.00 option; ERGO SG grip, Ambi, $20.00 option; Black $776.00   $776.00   
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.

1)  I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2)  Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3)  Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3)  What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?

[FiremanBill]

While certainly a good idea (I've looked at the book at Amazon.com), is there something in particular that I've written that caused you to tell me of the book?

This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:

1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; A3 w/YHM removable flip rear sight, $75.00 option; Steel gas block w/YHM flip front sight, $65.00 option; Standard bolt & carrier; Wook ambi extended latch chg hndl, $6.00 option; Aluminum free float tube, $25.00 option; 6 position M-4 stock, $25.00 option; ERGO SG grip, Ambi, $20.00 option; Black $776.00   $776.00   
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.

1)  I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2)  Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3)  Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3)  What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?

SG -

Looks like a pretty good setup.  I only recommend the book because sooner or later you may want to "tinker" and it's an excellent book to have handy.

I'm ordering much the same upper kit with HBAR chrome moly, no fluting, 20 inch.  I think 20 inch is minimum barrel for AR-15.   
I think I will order a match trigger for it.

Good luck with it. 

FB

[wcmartin1]

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm

Not necessary for Appleseed, but truly match grade in case y'all also wanna shoot some highpower and be competitive with 10's and X's across the course.

[EEL]

SG,
You have quite a rifle planned out !!! 

Some thoughts:

The Marines Corps TM 05538C-23&P/2 manual (guns shows about $6.00) is valuable to have also.

The A2 fixed handle w/ forged front sight is basic, robust, dependable and quite capable of being a Rifleman's Rifle.  If you want the A3 flat top, cool.  Be advised that the removable carry handle has different MOA values than the fixed handle.  Not that it's a bad thing, just have to remember that it's different.

Ambi charging handle is a niceity. If you are a lefty, have you checked out Stag arms?  They make uppers designed for lefties.

Free float tube is a good idea.  Lets you crank the sling "snug" without "bending" the barrel. (don't laugh) It can move point of impact depending on how much tension is on the sling each time you sling up.

Collapable stock?  OK, sure.  Again a niceity.  You will, however, loose the buttstock storage area for your cleaning gear and / or spare parts.  Also may have to modify it for proper cheek weld.

Ambi safety? Sure. (Brownells)  ARs can be modified till you run out of money!!!  Brownells probably has most of this stuff.  You may want to get the basic rifle, shoot it, then try some options.  You may find it works GREAT for you as is.  Just remember, the more stuff you "bolt" on, the more stuff can shake loose (A3 handle, ambi safety, rear sight, front sight / post) and the heavier your rifle becomes.  If it falls off, it may be lost.

Model 1 uses Shaw barrels.  Don't know who makes their uppers.

I own several ARs, have assembled quite a few from a "weapons kit", have worked on more.  Seen and shot quite a few with various options at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and Appleseeds.  Doesn't make me an expert by any stretch!!!!! 

One last thought, don't dump soooo much money in your rifle that you will be afraid to modify or use it for fear of "damaging" it's value.  At AS rifles get wet, dusty, dirty, frozen, scratched, stepped on, and well, kinda used and abused.  Remember, IT IS A TOOL. 

Take what you like, leave the rest.  Either way, you will enjoy building / assembling YOUR rifle. 

Good Luck and have fun with it   

EEL

[Old Dog]

For what it's worth (my experience and body proportions don't match everyone else) I have replaced the collapsable stock on my vARmint rifle with an A2 butt stock.  Even though I have the collapsable stocks on 2 other ARs I just never got comfortable behind the vARmint rifle with the collapsable stock so I put a fixied stock on it.  As they say, YMMV.

For the record, someone told me (way back there) that I wouldn't like the first buttstock.  I don't know why it doesn't seem to bother me on the short barreled rifles (CAR15 and S&W M&P 15).  I went through 3 different scope mounts/bases on the vARmint rifle as well trying to make it "fit" me.  Stock was too low, raised up wasn't far enough forward, raised and forward seems to fit.

[Southern Grey]

Thanks for the input. I really wanted to get nearly exactly what I thought I wanted the first time out. This excludes only a tricked out trigger set up which can come later if I need to do it.

I was hoping that it would be a great shooter when I got it dialed in.

As far as Appleseeds are concerned, I've got 22s, but this offered to be quite a hoot to work with for at least half the weekend seeing as how I want to achieve that 210 mark next time out.

[Old Dog]

I have Rock River Arms 2 stage triggers on two of my rifles and they are sweet.

However, the S&W rifle has the stock trigger in it and it's not bad, not as good as the RRA's, but way better than the triggers I replaced in those other rifles.  When you get yours put together try it, the trigger may be fine.

[MrBill]

Old Dog

Something seems very amiss with your assembled vARmint rifle above.  Something seems very loose (barrel nut, rings, scope reticule adjustment (don't laugh), barrel extension) to get groups that large.

Please let me know what the real culprit was when you find it as there is no good reason it shouldn't be shooting under 1/4" groups at 25m with your above mentioned setup

[fepowered]

......
This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:

1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; ......   $776.00   
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.

1)  I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2)  Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3)  Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3)  What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?

Model 1 Sales is the Earl Scheib of the AR world.   There is a reason it is cheaper... <

A complete Bushmaster A3 20" stainless upper with a pinned FSB is around $600.  When looking through a scope, you will never even notice the front sight.   I recommend using a removable carry handle instead of a BUIS type rear sight.  The geometry is spot on and everything is very durable.   Mine is very accurate with a variety of ammo.
Armalite and RRA offer similar uppers.
RRA 2 stage match triggers are less than $100 wholesale.  Your groups would thank you.  If you are building your bare lower, it makes no sense to start out with a GI style trigger.. 
If your intention is shooting Appleseed and High Power, a standard A2 stock is the way to go.  The cheek weld on a collapsible stock is no where near as nice and the difference is more prevalent when you add optics. 

[n00b]

900+ yard effective AR-15? 

http://www.sniperinfo.com/showthread.php?t=7

[mtmisfit]

While certainly a good idea (I've looked at the book at Amazon.com), is there something in particular that I've written that caused you to tell me of the book?

This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:

1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; A3 w/YHM removable flip rear sight, $75.00 option; Steel gas block w/YHM flip front sight, $65.00 option; Standard bolt & carrier; Wook ambi extended latch chg hndl, $6.00 option; Aluminum free float tube, $25.00 option; 6 position M-4 stock, $25.00 option; ERGO SG grip, Ambi, $20.00 option; Black $776.00   $776.00   
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.

1)  I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2)  Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3)  Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3)  What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?

Don't know about Model 1 but I dropped the fluting from my DPMS as it added a 12-24 month delay for a fluted barrel.
I ordered a .300 Fireball kit from Model 1 and was told 18 weeks.

Good luck with your project. AR's are the erector set of the gun world. 

[Old Dog]

Old Dog

Something seems very amiss with your assembled vARmint rifle above.  Something seems very loose (barrel nut, rings, scope reticule adjustment (don't laugh), barrel extension) to get groups that large.

Please let me know what the real culprit was when you find it as there is no good reason it shouldn't be shooting under 1/4" groups at 25m with your above mentioned setup

Yup.  The barrel/free float tube nut was loose.  I pulled the gas block and the gas tube and got another notch or two and then reinstalled the gas tube and gas block.  Finally got to the range today.

first group off the bench with 5 rounds loaded with 55 grn. fmj's and IMR 4895 were low and left and the group wasn't impressive (the bench is too high and the chairs too low so the rifle was way back off the bench as were my elbows).  Since I had my mat with me and Black Creek allows prone shooting I got down on the concrete and started moving the scope to get the group to move to the right (I didn't mind it being and 1" low but the 1.5" left had to be fixed).  Those five shots were from a box of my reloads I dug out of the attic the other day.  Loaded Dec. 12, 1985 and sitting up in the attic in the summer heat and humidity and winter cold all these years.  I got the POI moved over and shot a five shot group on a 30 caliber  bullet hole.  Three rounds tore a hole and the other two rounds opened it up a little.  I shot the last 10 rounds on another hole in the target and will skip a discription of that group until I get a chance to by some H335 powder and some more Hornady 45 grain spire point bullets to see if I can duplicate the performance.  Excep for one flyer it is the smallest group I ever shot at 25 yds.

That's how it works sometimes.  Luck.  You shoot a load you would never have picked on purpose (these were loads for my Rem. 700 varmint special - which I haven't shot in 25 years either) and I would never purposely have loaded 45 grain bullets for my 1 turn in 9" vARmint rifle since everyone knows 1 turn in 9" is just too fast for such a light bullet.


The real purpose for going to the range?  To let my son try out his new AR15 flat top.  He's happy with it.  No optics yet, just the BUIS (matech).  He shot two five shot groups during sight in.  Why two groups?  First group was with the rear sight set on 200 yds. (I should have explained it to him first but I was watching the bolt/brass to see if it was functioning correctly).  I noticed the sight setting and had him put it on the white line for the battle sight setting and shoot a second group.  Both groups were on for windage, adjusting the sight up slightly put the group on POA. 

Now for the good part.  He went down and got his targets and told me he was keeping the second target.  I asked why and he told me because it was a much smaller group than the first group.  I asked why and he said, "because I used the sling on the second group, dad."  Don't you just love it!

[AFTERMATH]

Wow, this post was resurected.
I suppose I can add, that I finally got mine built...
I had to go with an  M4 style, because that's what was available!
BCM Upper, Del-ton lower, LMT? bolt, UTG stock/carry handle.
I never did cancel my model1sales order for the gov't profile a2... So, I may get that too sometime this decade.
Got one group, approx. 3moa, but most arround 4 or 5(I've got position details to work out with this new rifle, but it'll get done )

[Panama]

I never did cancel my model1sales order for the gov't profile a2... So, I may get that too sometime this decade.

When did you order it? I ordered a gov't A2 upper in January. They called me Friday, they said it will ship Monday and I should have it by the end of the week.

[AFTERMATH]

When did you order it? I ordered a gov't A2 upper in January. They called me Friday, they said it will ship Monday and I should have it by the end of the week.

The end of March, or early April....

[Old Dog]

forgot to add, the leather (1903) sling is coming off the M1917 prior the next range trip.

darn thing seemed to work fine prior to trying to use it on a day when it was hot and muggy enough that my body was sloppy wet with sweat.  That leather stuck to my arm like glue every time it touched.  I like to never got it worked up high on my arm, then I was about to cut it to get it off.  Don't suggest a shooting jacket.  I don't use'em.  If it's so hot and muggy my legs are leaving wet spots on the concrete where they stick off the shooting mat (my t-shirt and shorts were pretty much soaked through) I sure ain't puttin' on no heavy jackets.

I also had to adjust it going from standing to prone (what a pain, trying to adjust from one set of holes to another with a brand new/stiff leather sling).  I do not have to make sling adjustment with my cotton/nylon web slings and that's what is going on the M1917 as soon as I dig one up.
Between the sling issues and the teeny/tiny little front sight post I think I'll try the cast bullet loads in the M1 next.