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AR build?

Started by Old Dog, March 31, 2008, 07:40:10 PM

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Old Dog

March 31, 2008, 07:40:10 PM
Due to a personality trait of mine I've missed my opportunity to build a couple of Winchester M1 Garands so I decided to build something else - an AR type varmint/target rifle.

I figured I might as well keep a lits of costs and sources along with problems and fixes.

AR15 receiver (DPMS) - $140 - cost + taxes + background check (gunshow yesterday)
AR15 adjustable stock, 6 position - $60 (Midway)
AR15 lower receiver parts kit (DPMS) - $47 (on sale at Midway)

Hopefully the parts fit will be trouble free since they come from the same place that made the lower receiver.

The idea is to make a nice little groundhog/coyote/crow rifle for use with pretty much standard .223 bullet weights (the long heavy bullets arent' needed for this rifles intended use).

More once the parts get here and I start to put them together.  I've ordered everything (I think) to complete the lower receiver.  Will decide on barrel length/type later. Definitely want a free float style handguard to eliminate sling/bipod pressure from the barrel.

I want a flat top upper receiver as it will have a scope on it (already have a good scope for it) but may by some of those detachable front and rear sights for it as well.

Why not an M1A?  Money.  For what it costs for an average quality M1A receiver I can buy most of what I need for the AR.  A second reason is a .308 is not in ideal varmint cartridge and the .223 is pretty darn good for that.  Small fast bullets that fragment on most any target will pretty much eliminate a richochet and that's not true for the .308 bullets.

Not trying to start a "funny" on AR's here.  I know from experience that the .223 is great for paper and varmints.  The AR has a reputation for excellent accuracy and that's important for what I intend to use the rifle for.  The bullets are cheaper than .308 bullets, it uses less powder and it recoils less (not that we'll have any 50 to 100 round days in the farm fields in central Virginia).

At some point (just like converting a store bought 10/22 to an LTR) folks may be interested in building themselves and AR (start buying the parts now!!)
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

socalserf

#1
April 01, 2008, 01:07:30 PM
The AR has a lot going for it. Accuracy, abundent parts and suppliers, low recoil, 22.cal conversions and more.
I'm not crazy about them, but the thought of building my own rifle is very tempting.

For Californian's, we face a unique challange. A lot of answers to CA-legal ARs can be found at http://www.calguns.net

To the members of that forum; thanks for supporting Appleseed!
"we cannot improve what we do not measure."

PHenry

#2
April 01, 2008, 05:39:01 PM
M1A,
A2 stock is superior for your app. Also a heavy stainless "varminter" barrel config would be good - with 1:9 twist. 24 to 26" length squeezes every drop of energy out of the .556 round and the twist will stabilize most any round. I would recommend 68g HP match rounds on 4895 powder. With a quality barrel, this should afford you sub MOA performance. Just a thought.
PH
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

Old Dog

#3
April 01, 2008, 06:44:55 PM
Yeah, I was looking at that twist in the 24" length.  Still thinking about whether or not a fluted barrel is worth the extra bucks.  Probably will go with stainless steel for the barrel, too.

Will probably stay with the adjustable stock (the CAR has one and it's growing on me) as this things alter ego will be a 16" barreled A4 type upper for non groundhog, coyote, crow use.

I'm too cheap to pay that kind of bucks for bullets.  I actually had great success many years ago with the teeny little 45 gr. varmint bullets in my M700 Rem. (high velocity, awesome damage, good enough groups to hit groundhogs in the head out to 225 yds.)  It has a 1 in 12 twist barrel though.  We'll see.

Thanks for the input.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Nickle

#4
April 02, 2008, 09:03:56 PM
I used to shoot a .223 Rem in IBS Heavy Varmint class when I was a teenager. Rem 722, Douglas premium chrome-moly barrel (med weight), Fajen stock, Lyman 20X Supertargetspot scope. 13 lbs, 4 oz.

I used 53 gr Sierra's, then 52 gr Sierra Boattails, when they became available.

The optimum twist for these bullets will be about 1-14", with 1-15" doable.

Accuracy was about 1/4-3/8 MOA, and the rifle was nothing spectacular. Remember, this would be the late 1960's.
They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians and Canadians and this country being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting. . . . ".  Lord Percy

Sounds like New Englanders to me.

Francis Marion

#5
April 03, 2008, 03:46:50 PM
Get plenty of 20 round and 30 round mags... before they're banned. 

MOGromit

#6
April 03, 2008, 04:19:32 PM
It's probably been mentioned in other threads, but to repeat, 44mag.com has great prices on AR magazines and also the CMI M14 magazines.

Gromit

Old Dog

#7
May 09, 2008, 06:38:26 PM
The DPMS lower from a gunshow.

The DPMS lower parts kit from Midway.

The 6 position adjustable butt stock from Miday (it needs to fit multiple shooters).

The upper group is from Blackthorne. 

The scope is a used 2.5X10 Simmons with a 50 mm objective lens (lots of light in).

The rings are garbage - new steel rings on order.

Rail on order for the bottom of the free float tube for the sling thing and a bipod.

Once I get the attachments installed I think I'll probably camo the whole thing (except the scope) in case them there varmints have sharp eyes.



"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

SGTCap

#8
May 09, 2008, 10:37:13 PM
cant wait to see a range report of the blackthorne upper.

PHenry

#9
May 12, 2008, 03:52:10 PM
Dead sexy! Now all u need is a gooder trigger and the right load.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

Old Dog

#10
May 26, 2008, 09:35:39 PM
Got it degreased and painted today.  Just need to get to a range or a field for some sight in.

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

SGTCap

#11
May 26, 2008, 09:38:34 PM
Damn you do a nice camo job.  I'd like to here any tips you have on the subject.  May be more appropriate for PM though.

MrBill

#12
September 20, 2008, 02:29:51 AM
ARs can be excellent and VERY accurate rifles.  I have a Cali legal AR with a 24" Douglas stainless 1 in 8" bull barrel and it will shoot 10 shot groups under 3/4" at 100 yards if I watch the wind (read: wind flags with a rest).  If I were to do it again, I would pony up a little more for a Hart or Krieger barrel, but I really shouldn't complain. 

It pings steel at 600 (308 clangs steel at 600) with boring repetitiveness with the Sierra 69gr or 77gr MatchKings.  There is a HUGE difference in accuracy with mil-spec bullets compared to match type bullets.  For what you are talking about I would use the 52gr or 53gr Sierras and just wince when you buy a thousand or two, and enjoy it every time you pull the trigger.

I know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit.  Not that I dont like my AR-10t, but I shoot the AR-15 much better, and it is more accurate.

M1A4ME - please do tell your camo secrets.  That looks great
"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."  Mahatma Mohandas K. Gandhi

crashkid2k

#13
September 20, 2008, 04:39:22 AM Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 04:53:31 AM by crashkid2k
Moderator, correct me if I'm wrong.  I will voluntarily report this message as soon as it posts to the forum.

Quote from: MrBill on September 20, 2008, 02:29:51 AMI know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit. 

AS teaches marksmanship and does not "lean toward" any rifle or caliber.

AS teaches hitting the target, rather than leaving a big hole in the air!

Where did the belief that AS "leans toward 308s" originate?

This needs to be nipped in the bud!

EDIT: This program just told me that I can't report myself to the moderator (it even told me that it didn't make sense!), so I will have to find another way to ensure that I have not misrepresented the program's intentions.  I can't report myself?  What kind of silliness is that?

fepowered

#14
September 20, 2008, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: MrBill on September 20, 2008, 02:29:51 AM
I know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit.

Appleseed does not focus on pinpoint accuracy or large calibers.  You are encouraged to come shoot with whatever caliber you have.  The mission is to be able to shoot 4MOA out to 500 yards.  This is service rifle with surplus ammo accuracy not varminter accuracy. 
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score.    .25MOA from the bench is far less critical than 4MOA off-hand, sitting and prone..... 
"Today, we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are
willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."

wcmartin1

#15
September 20, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 10:55:51 AM
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score.     

I think they'll help, but they're not necessary.

I've got a highly accurate AR.  It's a joy to shoot and I've had my highest scores with it.

I also have an SKS that'll get you Rifleman scores as well.

It's more about the nut behind the butt (fundamentals).
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

fepowered

#16
September 20, 2008, 11:10:42 AM
Quote from: M1A4ME on March 31, 2008, 07:40:10 PM
.......I decided to build something else - an AR type varmint/target rifle.

I figured I might as well keep a lits of costs and sources along with problems and fixes.
.......
Hopefully the parts fit will be trouble free since they come from the same place that made the lower receiver.

The idea is to make a nice little groundhog/coyote/crow rifle for use with pretty much standard .223 bullet weights (the long heavy bullets arent' needed for this rifles intended use).

More once the parts get here and I start to put them together.  I've ordered everything (I think) to complete the lower receiver.  Will decide on barrel length/type later. Definitely want a free float style handguard to eliminate sling/bipod pressure from the barrel.

I want a flat top upper receiver as it will have a scope on it (already have a good scope for it) but may by some of those detachable front and rear sights for it as well.

You should have no issues with your misc parts fitting.  I would recommend a RRA trigger.  They seem to be the best value for a nice 2 stage trigger.  If you do a build with a Weaver style gas block, you can put a front and rear sight on it and make it a dual purpose rifle.  I left the A2 sight style gas block on mine and it does not obstruct my field of vision through my scope.  I also stuck with a A2 stock as I do not like the cheek weld with the standard collapsible stocks.   IT may not bother you from the bench, but it makes a difference in the field and shooting a AQT.  
"Today, we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are
willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."

fepowered

#17
September 20, 2008, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: wcmartin1 on September 20, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 10:55:51 AM
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score.     
I think they'll help, but they're not necessary.
I've got a highly accurate AR.  It's a joy to shoot and I've had my highest scores with it.
I also have an SKS that'll get you Rifleman scores as well.
It's more about the nut behind the butt (fundamentals).

If you need a .25MOA rifle to shoot 4MOA, you are doing something wrong.   ;)   We should be making sure that those new to Appleseed get the message that it isn't about shooting the highest score, but shooting Rifleman consistently and teaching others to do the same.....
"Today, we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are
willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."

wcmartin1

#18
September 20, 2008, 11:20:02 AM
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: wcmartin1 on September 20, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 10:55:51 AM
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score.     
I think they'll help, but they're not necessary.
I've got a highly accurate AR.  It's a joy to shoot and I've had my highest scores with it.
I also have an SKS that'll get you Rifleman scores as well.
It's more about the nut behind the butt (fundamentals).


If you need a .25MOA rifle to shoot 4MOA, you are doing something wrong.   ;)   We should be making sure that those new to Appleseed get the message that it isn't about shooting the highest score, but shooting Rifleman consistently and teaching others to do the same.....

Agreed.
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

crashkid2k

#19
September 20, 2008, 04:00:45 PM
Sorry if I sounded snippy last night.

I'm not going to try and make any lame excuses.

funfaler

#20
September 20, 2008, 09:15:17 PM
No worries!

Here at Appleseed, we have no egos or toes, so you can't upset or step on them  ;) ;D


The dips in your couch will go away if you get up and take the Seventh Step!

SGTCap

#21
September 21, 2008, 03:26:07 PM
Quote from: crashkid2k on September 20, 2008, 04:39:22 AM
Moderator, correct me if I'm wrong.  I will voluntarily report this message as soon as it posts to the forum.

Quote from: MrBill on September 20, 2008, 02:29:51 AMI know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit. 

AS teaches marksmanship and does not "lean toward" any rifle or caliber.

AS teaches hitting the target, rather than leaving a big hole in the air!

Where did the belief that AS "leans toward 308s" originate?

This needs to be nipped in the bud!

EDIT: This program just told me that I can't report myself to the moderator (it even told me that it didn't make sense!), so I will have to find another way to ensure that I have not misrepresented the program's intentions.  I can't report myself?  What kind of silliness is that?


Those gongs on the KD range sure laughed at me 75grn BTHPs.  The Garands rang them but my 556 did next to nothing. I could see lead powder on impact but they didnt budge.  That has nothing to do with AS, just a observation I made at bootcamp.

MrBill

#22
September 24, 2008, 10:41:43 PM
Woooah!  I didn't mean to touch off a sensitive nerve here.  I meant my comments about myself, and my inability to shoot my M1A to save my life.  I am pretty comfey with my AR, and the AR format fits me.  I am probably a little larger than average (OK a lot larger in diameter than average) and my body and the M1A don't mix well.  Certainly many people can and do shoot the heck out of them.  I also don't shoot my AR10t anywhere as well as I do my AR-15.  Maybe I've become a recoil Nancy boy.

I also thought this thread had digressed into varmint style ARs as that is what the pictures are. 

Hey I'm  recovering benchrest competitor and a gear geek to boot.  For me the accuracy thing is about confidence.  The day before shooting Rifleman, I went to the range with - dare I say it - a rest.  I tried a couple of different brand 22 ammo, and decided to use one that was both accurate and had no failures to fire.  One of the 5 shot groups I shot at 25m was 0.080.  Certainly not good enough for benchrest but pretty good for a 10/22 variant.  I pasted that on my ammo can to go to AS to remind me it is the nut behind the butt, and that I had NO excuse for not making Rifleman.  Worked for me.  Your results may vary.

I do want to learn to shoot my AR10 better, and actually be able to hit something with an M1A.  Remember it is a journey, not a destination.

Cheers

"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."  Mahatma Mohandas K. Gandhi

Spatulaman

#23
September 25, 2008, 12:39:14 AM
 In the interest of helping you maintain your mental balance, I'll take that M1A off of your hands. Since confidence is a big part of shooting, it only stands to reason that, having the thought of that rifle lurking in your subconcious will be detrimental to your scores. Just trying to be helpful  :D.

crashkid2k

#24
September 25, 2008, 02:46:53 AM
Aren't we a generous bunch?

Spatulaman didn't even let 2 hours elapse before he offered to help save MrBill's "mental balance"!  I'm getting a little choked up...    :) :D

I haven't found any rhyme or reason behind individual AR/M1 preferences, and I've been watching for age, sex, body type, handedness, etc.  A tall, thin female lefty loves the AR on one end of the line, while a short, heavy male righty loves the M1 on the other end.  You might see the exact opposite next week!  It's unpredictable at best.

MrBill has it right; it's a journey.  The Rifleman score is merely a signpost on that journey.

MrBill has it right again; the accuracy thing is about confidence.  Pick up any given rifle, shoot a sighter, adjust your sights and start shooting.  You should be shooting 4 MOA.

That's confidence in the rifleman, not the rifle.

crash

Sorry if we're way off topic; I'll take the blame.  Yes, I understand that my pay will be cut as a result...

AFTERMATH

#25
November 16, 2008, 12:07:45 AM
Hey,

I was contemplating an AR build myself, and was wondering:

How did that Blackthorne upper perform?

Any info or suggestions would be apreciated.


Thank you,

Aftermath
"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship Instructors on the planet." - Son of Martha

"Tyrants rise and fall, but tyranny lasts forever." -Me

[What kind of megalomaniac quotes himself?]

Old Dog

#26
November 16, 2008, 09:16:54 AM
Haven't shot it since June.  First trip to the range it functioned fine for a few rounds, then began some failures to feed after ejecting.  Manually chambering every round for a few then turned into failures to eject.  This turned into putting it back in the case.

It was plenty wet with oil, more didn't help.  When I tore it down I found the screws that hold the bolt carrier key backing out.  Have not shot it since.  Too many issues got in the way of getting it back to the range since then.

The groups at the time were fired with some reloads and some Winchester factory 55 gn. FMJ rounds.  They were not impressive.  Have made a couple of changes since then (fixed A2 buttstock and different scope mount so I could get a good cheek weld) but have not shot it.

Some rifles are picky about what they shoot well while others seem to shoot a lot of different loads well.  The verdict is still out on this one.  Sorry.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

JohnCBobcat

#27
November 16, 2008, 09:27:27 PM
Quote from: SGTCap on May 09, 2008, 10:37:13 PM
cant wait to see a range report of the blackthorne upper.

Blackthorne is Hesse/Vulcan
2nd Squad, 1st Plt., E Co., 2/39 INF, 9th ID (reenacted), California Historical Group

AAAO!

colycat

#28
November 16, 2008, 11:35:55 PM
My son really wants to get an AR.  Does it make sense to build it yourself, or buy one from a reputable company? 

Colycat
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives everything its value."   T Paine

100

fepowered

#29
November 17, 2008, 01:06:58 AM
Quote from: colycat on November 16, 2008, 11:35:55 PM
My son really wants to get an AR.  Does it make sense to build it yourself, or buy one from a reputable company? 

It really depends on the deal you can find when you are looking...
Right now, you should be able to build one for a reasonable price...    I am a fan of complete uppers and then building the lower myself.   I like to use 2 stage triggers and ergo grips.  I don't see the point in paying for standard stuff and then trying to sell it when I replace it with what I really want. 
A complete Bushmaster should be around $900 and then the cost of customizing it..
Right now, AIM surplus has flat top mid length carbine uppers with pinned A2 style gas block/front sights for $525 and $.01 shipping.  $525.01 to your front door!!!  Armalite complete uppers start at $500 plus shipping from Armalite, but they may be out of stock.   
This is a high quality upper at a good price.  These won't last long...   All you have to do is pick up a removable carry handle and you are set for an Appleseed.    Bare lowers are around $113.96 shipped from AIM right now and the last RRA 2 stage trigger I got was $75.
"Today, we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are
willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."
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