Virginia Politics

[Cheeks]

Here is the latest VA-Alert from VCDL. If you're not already receiving them, you can sign up here. http://www.vcdl.org/static/va-alert.html

The following bills are coming up on Thursday, Feb. 3rd, at 5 PM in the Militia, Police and Public Safety.  Click on the links to send emails on these bills: It's super easy to do.

Pro-gun bills:

HB 1732 - Delegate Carrico - the CHPs from all states would be recognized in Virginia - VCDL Strongly Supports:

http://tinyurl.com/4grtxu6


HB 2069 - Delegate Athey - Constitutional Carry bills (a person doesn't need to have a permit to carry concealed, but can get one if they want one) - there are some serious drafting errors in this bill.  We expect the drafting errors to get fixed and the bill to be improved  in subcommittee, but are in wait-and-see mode right now.  Stay tuned.


A single email for these 3 anti-gun bills:

HB 1669 - Delegate McClellan - so called "Gun show loophole" bill - VCDL Strongly Opposes:

HB 2524 - Delegate Carr - makes it illegal to sell, barter, or transfer a magazine that will hold 20 or more rounds.  Another silly "feel-good" measure - VCDL Strongly Opposes

HB 3454 - Delegate Morrissey - makes it illegal for anyone who is carrying openly, or concealed with a concealed handgun permit, to be intoxicated.  Police, Commonwealth Attorneys, Harbormaster of Hopewell, and others can be as drunk as they want without repercussion - VCDL Strongly Opposes

http://tinyurl.com/4l5wp6b

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***************************************************************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
(VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org [http://www.vcdl.org/]

[siglite]

The VCDL is the model after which the WVCDL is patterned (see my signature).  Phil Van Cleave, Dave Vann, and a host of other VCDL board and executive members are fine people I consider personal friends. 

However, we are bound to keep politics out of Appleseed.  And the above is pure politics.  Politics most of us probably agree with, but politics nonetheless.   I do not discuss the WVCDL's efforts on this board for that reason, no matter how tempting (and believe me, it is tempting) it may be to do so.

I find absolutely no fault with your post, other than it is in the wrong venue.  There was no HB1732 on Lexington Green.

I REALLY hope this post is not coming off as harsh, condescending, or in any way negative or any sort of indictment.  I do NOT mean it that way.  I just hope you see my point.

[Patent guy]

However, we are bound to keep politics out of Appleseed.  And the above is pure politics.  Politics most of us probably agree with, but politics nonetheless.   I do not discuss the WVCDL's efforts on this board for that reason, no matter how tempting (and believe me, it is tempting) it may be to do so.

I find absolutely no fault with your post, other than it is in the wrong venue.  There was no HB1732 on Lexington Green.

I'm unclear about how to limit "7th step" discussions.  I get that RWVA/Appleseed Project shall remain unaffiliated with any political party, BUT:
First, is advocacy in favor of 2nd amdt rights "politics" for Appleseed project purposes?  For example, I know staunch 2nd amendment supporters among Maryland Democrats.
Second, if we use the public forums on 2nd amdt (like VCDL) to invite people to come to an Appleseed, isn't it reasonable to post VCDL/WVCDL info here so we can communicate with one another about our "prospective Appleseeders" audience?
Third, if Fred can speak at a Teaparty event without essentially affiliating the Appleseed Project with the Teaparty, why can't we engage the VCDL/WVCDL and retain enough distance from partisan politics?  Just sayin...

[siglite]

However, we are bound to keep politics out of Appleseed.  And the above is pure politics.  Politics most of us probably agree with, but politics nonetheless.   I do not discuss the WVCDL's efforts on this board for that reason, no matter how tempting (and believe me, it is tempting) it may be to do so.

I find absolutely no fault with your post, other than it is in the wrong venue.  There was no HB1732 on Lexington Green.

I'm unclear about how to limit "7th step" discussions.  I get that RWVA/Appleseed Project shall remain unaffiliated with any political party, BUT:
First, is advocacy in favor of 2nd amdt rights "politics" for Appleseed project purposes?  For example, I know staunch 2nd amendment supporters among Maryland Democrats.
Second, if we use the public forums on 2nd amdt (like VCDL) to invite people to come to an Appleseed, isn't it reasonable to post VCDL/WVCDL info here so we can communicate with one another about our "prospective Appleseeders" audience?
Third, if Fred can speak at a Teaparty event without essentially affiliating the Appleseed Project with the Teaparty, why can't we engage the VCDL/WVCDL and retain enough distance from partisan politics?  Just sayin...

I'm sure we're all 2nd amendment supporters.  But one of the things we (or at least I) tell people, is to get involved.  The difference is, we aren't going to tell you HOW to vote.  It's not our place to tell you how to think, only that you should get involved with your republic.  This is very specifically telling people what to do. 

Now, if Fred jumps in this thread and says issue advocacy is ok, by golly, we're going to hear some stuff about the WVCDL on this forum.  Chances are though, that it might open the door to some other issues that could prove incredibly divisive. 

[jmdavis]

I considered Cheeks post a heads up on a message from VCDL. Since it didn't lead to any forum response for 19 days, I don't think that there was an issue.

At the same time I think that Patent Guy brings up  good points. If we are going to ask for VCDL (or WVCDL for that matter) mentions we should be prepared to offer mentions of their concerns. And, if we want people involved we should expect them to be involved.  Probably the best way to do this is to put the link on the state forum and then allow those who want to check the linked site and make their own decisions. That would seem to be the least that we could do.

Mike

[siglite]

I considered Cheeks post a heads up on a message from VCDL. Since it didn't lead to any forum response for 21 days, I don't think that there was an issue.

At the same time I think that Patent Guy brings up  good points. If we are going to ask for VCDL (or WVCDL for that matter) mentions we should be prepared to offer mentions of their concerns. And, if we want people involved we should expect them to be involved.  Probably the best way to do this is to put the link on the state forum and then allow those who want to check the linked site and make their own decisions. That would seem to be the least that we could do.

Mike

There's a story I tell at just about every appleseed, where some folks I know, motivated by Appleseed got off their couches and started working for a candidate in the last election.  What I do NOT tell is, who the candidate was, what that candidate's election platform was, and I darn sure don't say that I wouldn't have voted for that candidate with a shotgun to my head.  I absolutely cannot stand that candidate.  But when I tell the story, I tell it with pride.  And the pride is genuine.  Because it is exactly what we ask people to do.  We ask them to get involved.  We do not tell or suggest that they should vote for $x candidate, $y candidate, party 1, party 2, or $z issue. 

The link issue for the VCDL is an easy one.  It's easy to say "yeah, that doesn't really do any harm, does it? In fact, it could do a lot of good."  And that'd be correct, according to most of us.   And then what happens when the next link is something we might not agree with so easily.  For example most of us would balk at links on this forum to the Communist Party of the USA.   "But you let them link to VCDL!"  Or the next link is to stormfront or somewhere. 

Suddenly, we're stepping off our mission of waking Americans and getting them involved, and starting to tell them how to get involved.

Jmdavis, you know I'm not a decision maker on these issues or other matters of Appleseed policy.  So, this is my opinion, and my suggestion, and nothing more.

[jmdavis]

Well part of the question would be whether we would ever ask those groups for their help. If we did, there might be a legitimate reason to share a link (as we do with certain businesses). Of course they are antithetical to our goals and mission, so I wouldn't expect that.

However, if we are to ask VCDL (or WVCDL) for promo assistance then we should expect to share links for them in the state areas of the forums. Sometimes I think that we have a tendency to take non-partisan as "apolitical". There may be a danger in that.

But again, mostly I think that this is a non-issue. It was not a distraction.

I believe that we are all responsible for the decision-making here. With every post, every interview, and every event we are making decisions that have consequences. We won't always make the right decisions. Hopefully we can average more right than wrong and learn from the mistakes.

[siglite]

Well part of the question would be whether we would ever ask those groups for their help. If we did, there might be a legitimate reason to share a link (as we do with certain businesses). Of course they are antithetical to our goals and mission, so I wouldn't expect that.

However, if we are to ask VCDL (or WVCDL) for promo assistance then we should expect to share links for them in the state areas of the forums. Sometimes I think that we have a tendency to take non-partisan as "apolitical". There may be a danger in that.

But again, mostly I think that this is a non-issue. It was not a distraction.

I believe that we are all responsible for the decision-making here. With every post, every interview, and every event we are making decisions that have consequences. We won't always make the right decisions. Hopefully we can average more right than wrong and learn from the mistakes.

Here in WV, wherever WVCDL is, Appleseed is usually nearby.  The Machine showed up a couple of years ago at a WVCDL Open Carry event.  That was my second contact with Appleseed.  They'd showed up at our lobby day with a box full of fliers before that.  It worked out pretty well.  So in terms of promotions, we have a one-way street going on.  Appleseed is free to promote within WVCDL (effectively, too, since a number of our board members are active in Appleseed) but due to the apolitical nature of Appleseed, we don't promote WVCDL within Appleseed.  (Ok, beyond my signature, at least.) 

I don't know how much promotion you guys have done with VCDL members.  If the answer is "not a lot" then oh yeah, you guys should jump on that.  Phil Van Cleave is a pretty good guy, as are all the board members and EMs I've met in our neighbor to the south.  You'll probably find a very receptive audience.  I could probably be of some help if you find any resistance from them.  I don't think you will, but if you do, I could probably get an EM or Board member to a shoot, which I think would probably help things greatly. 

[Big H]

Appleseed instructors may proselytize for pro-Bill of Rights organizations. To address siglite's concerns, the Communist Party of the USA and organizations advocating racial discord or unconstitutional violence are forbidden.

This is a working forum. Do not favor or oppose a candidate on this forum. Please simply post links to pro-Bill of Rights organizations, especially when bills may affect Appleseeds, and let the readers do the research and make up their own minds. Remember forum rules and CPR.

(Allowed:) Proselytizing by Instructors of staff for ... membership in RWVA, participation in the Appleseed program, membership in the host (or other local) ranges/clubs, participation in the soft war, participation in personal responsibility/preparedness organizations, or participation in pro-Bill of Rights organizations.

... specifically EXCLUDED ... Espousing any doctrine, or showing support for any group advocating racial/religious discord, communist/socialist organizations, or unconstitutional use of violence.  In cases of dispute, the Shoot Boss' opinion prevails.  If the dispute is considered important enough, a request for clarification is to be forwarded to the Steering Committee.

For an organization to be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) it cannot "participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements) any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

Can a section 501(c)(3) organization state its position on public policy issues that candidates for public office are divided on?

An organization may take positions on public policy issues, including issues that divide candidates in an election for public office as long as the message does not in any way favor or oppose a candidate.  Be aware that the message does not need to identify the candidate by name to be prohibited political campaign activity.  A message that shows a picture of a candidate, refers to a candidate's political party affiliations, or contains other distinctive features of a candidate's platform or biography may be prohibited political campaign activity.

The political campaign intervention
prohibition is not intended to restrict free
expression on political matters by leaders
of organizations speaking for themselves,
as individuals. Nor are leaders prohib­
ited from speaking about important issues
of public policy. However, for their or­
ganizations to remain tax exempt under
section 501(c)(3), leaders cannot make
partisan comments in official organization
publications or at official functions of the
organization.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations may
take positions on public policy issues,
including issues that divide candidates
in an election for public office. How­
ever, section 501(c)(3) organizations must
avoid any issue advocacy that functions
as political campaign intervention. Even
if a statement does not expressly tell an
audience to vote for or against a specific
candidate, an organization delivering the
statement is at risk of violating the polit­
ical campaign intervention prohibition if
there is any message favoring or opposing
a candidate. A statement can identify a
candidate not only by stating the candi­
date's name but also by other means such
as showing a picture of the candidate,
referring to political party affiliations, or
other distinctive features of a candidate's
platform or biography. All the facts and
circumstances need to be considered to
determine if the advocacy is political cam­
paign intervention.

[siglite]

Well, that's convenient.  Then, can I solicit WVCDL memberships at shoots?

[jmdavis]

Well, that's convenient.  Then, can I solicit WVCDL memberships at shoots?

I would include WVCDL in my benediction. I would see nothing wrong with having membership forms available to those who want them. But let's move this discussion offline.

Virginia instructors should know that there was nothing wrong with the original topic and that I commend Cheeks for making the post. We have created far more distraction with our discussions of possible distraction than the original ever did.