Full distance: bipods

[neoinarien]

I was wondering whether bipods are allowed? 

[2 clicks low]

If you have a physical limitation that would require such, then yes you may, see the adaptive appleseed section.

Otherwise, bipod? Bipod? We dont need no stinking bipod!

Come to an Appleseed and we will teach you how to hit 4moa targets out to the "riflemans quarter mile", 500 yds. with your rifle and a GI web sling.

2cl

[fepowered]

I was wondering whether bipods are allowed?

We do not teach the use of bipods and their use is normally not allowed.  A bipod is an artificial support which can make it much easier to hit your target at but will mask many NPOA (Natural Point Of Aim) issues.   A core part of our instruction is NPOA.   I have seen it many times where a shooter can hit well with a bipod but when that tool is taken away and they switch to using a sling they are no longer stable.  Learning a stable shooting position and getting your NPOA without a bipod will actually make you a better shooter with a bipod at long distance.   

I_K on ARFCOM

[Old Dog]

Bipods are not the aid to shooting AQTs you might think they are.  My M1A has a bipod on it.  I've chosen not to install one on my synthetic stocked M1 Garand for these reasons:
1) the pogo effect with rapid fire (bounce is far worse than recoil with a well slung rifle)
2) AQT targets are not in one spot (except for full distance AQTs) and transitioning from one target to the next requires lots of practice to do it well as you move across the multiple targets on a 25 meter AQT
3) The bipod won't keep you from shooting groups off the target if you don't get a good repeatable cheek weld every shot, every target
4) you gonna put the bipod on/off the rifle depending on the stage you are shooting?  It is added weight out on the muzzle end of the rifle in the standing position.
5) How much time are you going to spend trying to get the rifle level if the ground isn't level under the bipod legs (yeah, some have swivels - did you pay for the high dollar swivel version?)
5a) if the ground was level when you started firing how will you compensate for that one leg that digs deepeer/quicker than the other leg?

For single shots, slow shots, etc. a bipod is okay.  A good sling works in every position, in all field conditions and is already a part of the rifle for weight consideration.

Have a good one.

[neoinarien]

Yes, I've been to a few Appleseeds so I get the NPOA and use of the sling.

I was thinking of bringing a FAL to the Appleseed, which typically do not appreciate the m1 sling tension and normally has a bipod attached anyways.  So to get this to work right, I may have detach the bipod (or deal with the dead weight out front). 

OK, thanks for your input.  I figured the Appleseed has dealt with this before.

Thanks!   

[AFTERMATH]

For prone, the dead weight will actually help solidify your position.  Though, there may be barrel harmonics issues, but I can't say for certain.

As per the sling tension.  I'd always heard the same thing about AR's.  I slung up real tight in my m4gery. Got down in prone and began clanking away on some steel at 600.
Yes, the swivel was attached to the barrel.  Just your standard 16in. m4 copy with iron sights. 

The key is consistancy.


Aftermath

[neoinarien]

Yeah... I sling up my ARs that are not free floated...  But I think I have more accuracy to give up to a POI shift from getting some solid tension going than on a battle rifle. 

Agreed re. harmonics.  But then again, since I'm not exactly shooting one ragged hole with a battle rifle (or don't expect to: I've decided to get a battle rifle in 308, just deciding between FAL and M1A) I'm not terribly upset about altering the harmonics. 

Though, if one is using iron sights, wouldn't exerting tension from a sling (particularly where the sling is right beneath the sight mount like an AR) also shift the POA?  If so, seems like an argument to stick with irons in yet another circumstance.

[Old Dog]

Pulling down (or pushing sideways, etc.) on a barrel will affect the POI.  It's a fact.  When I went through basic and AIT in the mid 70's the Army did not teach the use of the sling with the skinny barreled M16A1's in use at the time (they didn't teach bayonet use either, for similar reasons).

As stated above, if you can consistently sling up every time then the POI should be in the same place every time.  I choose to use free float tubes on my ARs and the sling is attached to the tube not the barrel, so no issues there.

Some FAL's have a bipod mounted on the barrel.  The one I bought my son did, too, but we took it off as it did affect POI.  They make free float tubes for FAL's but I have never seen one in person so I can't say what it takes to get one mounted on the rifle or what its full benefits might be.

Answer your own question by trying it both ways, slung up and with the bipod legs extended.  That will tell you what the effect is of each method and make your decision from that.  If you show up at the Appleseed with the bipod they (instructors) ought to let you try both ways.  I've been to several appleseeds where we let folks use bipods (as well as match grade .22 semi autos and bolt action rifles, heavy barreled varmint rifles, 9 mm carbine/PDW type firearms, etc. - none of these are "rack grade" rifles in the old definition - but we allowed folks to use them, even bipods have been used).  I will say that while I was doing Appleseeds regularly (and both days all day) I never saw anyone with a bipod shoot a rifleman score.  The bipod shouldn't be a crutch.  If you learn to shoot well first the bipod won't be a crutch, it could be an aid in the right circumstances.

[neoinarien]

Pulling down (or pushing sideways, etc.) on a barrel will affect the POI.  It's a fact.  When I went through basic and AIT in the mid 70's the Army did not teach the use of the sling with the skinny barreled M16A1's in use at the time (they didn't teach bayonet use either, for similar reasons).

As stated above, if you can consistently sling up every time then the POI should be in the same place every time.  I choose to use free float tubes on my ARs and the sling is attached to the tube not the barrel, so no issues there.

Some FAL's have a bipod mounted on the barrel.  The one I bought my son did, too, but we took it off as it did affect POI.  They make free float tubes for FAL's but I have never seen one in person so I can't say what it takes to get one mounted on the rifle or what its full benefits might be.

Answer your own question by trying it both ways, slung up and with the bipod legs extended.  That will tell you what the effect is of each method and make your decision from that.  If you show up at the Appleseed with the bipod they (instructors) ought to let you try both ways.  I've been to several appleseeds where we let folks use bipods (as well as match grade .22 semi autos and bolt action rifles, heavy barreled varmint rifles, 9 mm carbine/PDW type firearms, etc. - none of these are "rack grade" rifles in the old definition - but we allowed folks to use them, even bipods have been used).  I will say that while I was doing Appleseeds regularly (and both days all day) I never saw anyone with a bipod shoot a rifleman score.  The bipod shouldn't be a crutch.  If you learn to shoot well first the bipod won't be a crutch, it could be an aid in the right circumstances.

I agree with the crutch bit 100%.  Thankfully, I've already crossed the Rifleman bridge and got my patch at the last shoot.  Just the same, I'm not the type of guy to rest of my laurels (or lack thereof) and I won't be happy until I can shoot a perfect 250 every time (which I realize won't happen).  So I am constantly looking for ways to improve and to shoot in different circumstances.  Since I have never shot off a bipod, and it does seem like an inherent advantage, I was looking at my next rifle purchase to have an integral bipod.

If I do go the FAL route I'll be sure to check out the free float options.  Much like yourself, I've heard of them but have never seen one (let alone read a review).     

[Nickle]

NPOA is an issue, and a bipod will NOT compensate for it, nor will a rest and sand bags. Anybody that tries to tell you otherwise is just flat wrong.

Now, what Appleseed teaches is basic riflery, and that's something that a regular soldier uses. Bipods are intended for machineguns and designated marksman/sniper rifles.

Shooting Long Range (now, by my definition, that's anything in excess of 500 yards), a bipod is a definite asset. But, you're also shooting either prone or from a bench.

My suggestion, before striving for that 250, is to take what you've learned out to the real 400 yards, and apply it, and get that KD Rifleman score done.

Old Dog, I went through Basic a few years ahead of you ('72 at Ft Dix). We did bayonet training, but they didn't teach us diddly squat about using the sling.