reloading

[farmguner]

I received a set of RCBS 223 full length reloading dies under the tree.  I am defiantly a newb when it comes to reloading. I would like to make ammo for my 16in bbl AR with 1/9 twist barrel. The rounds will be used for AS shoots, and ground hogs.  I am thinking about trying nosler 60gr ballistic tips, because they have a crimping cannelure, and a boat tail.

Is it important to have a cannelure on rounds use in AR-15 type rifles?

[Xeyed]

Don't have the answer to your question.

But there is alot of information in the Reloading section

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=15.0

Someone there will know.

[oladcock]

Farmguner, this'll probably get moved to the reloading section so I'll give you my 2 cents over there...O.L.

[sparks1]

 The cannelure is not necessary. In fact crimping may be a detriment to accurate loads.

The Sierra 69 MK is a target bullet and has no cannelure, for example. Maybe try the Hornady 60 gr V-Max. Shoots wonders out of my 24" DPMS Varmint  1/9 twist

[duc-dog]

       I know this is going to leave more questions than it answers.
You have to ask yourself; what do I want and what is an acceptable level of accuracy?
As a general rule all of my autoloaders have a crimp. Basically any round I load that is fed from a mag has a crimp I have found that without a crimp there are occasions that the bullet is pushed back into the case during feeding from the mag.  Most of my hunting ammo has a crimp for the same reason plus it makes it more weather proof.  You can achieve accurate loads with a crimp but everything must be consistant and most importantly all of your cases must be the same length. I usually trim all of my cases .015 under max COL before the first loading. Then toss them once they stretch past the max length.   I also do most of my reloading on a progressive press.  BUT>>>>>> when you want true one hole accuracy do not use a crimp.  Again it is a matter of consistency, any crimp distorts the bullet. When you reach that level of reloading you will be turning case necks, weighing brass, uniforming primer pockets and any thing else you can think of to make things uniform from one round to the next. You should expect anything you throw together for your AR to group around 1-1.5 MOA.  Pay a little attention to it you might get it down to .5-.75 MOA.  If you want better accuracy go to a longer barrel then after that a bolt gun......
       Options are what makes life interesting,
            Milt 

[MeanStreaker]

I'll move this to the Reloading section for everyone.

FG, I reload but really only do .45ACP so I'm not an expert on all rifle rounds.  If I can help with anything, shoot me a PM.

Thanks.

[oladcock]

Farm, I've got 2 with 16" and 1 with a 20". Like Duc-dog said, many do not crimp, and I've shot them uncrimped but it worries the hell out of me. I use a Lee Factory Crimp on anything I run through a semi auto.

All 3 of these guns with hand loads will shoot sub-moa and saw no difference between crimped and uncrimped. Win 64gr PP shoot very well for our "meat" loads and Hornady 68gr match bthp are tack drivers. Tried several powders but Varget is hard to beat in both our .223's and .308's. Everyone's got their own rituals, I aneal the heck out of the cases, size, trim to max length 1.76", smooth the necks (I'm picky with that part), do the pockets, tumble, do flash holes, prime, and load to OAL of 2.26", then crimp.......O.L.

Note: Every gun likes a different load and as little as .2grs can be the difference between 1.5" groups and sub 1"...

[sparks1]

 I'll get back in here to say I have never crimped....the reason being I was mentored in reloading by a BR shooter. I strive for accuracy with all my reloading and have never had a problem by not crimping. If the case neck does not have enough tension to hold the bullet then it gets annealed or thrown away.

 Your choice of a BT bullet is good for any long range shooting. BR (benchrest) shooters prefer the flatbase , but they only shoot the 100 to 200 yd course. beyond that the BT bullet shines. Your reloading manuals will give you a choice of powders within a specific burn rate for your caliber and bullet choice. Find one that works well for you and run with it. I run ball powders 'cos I use a Harrels powder thrower and it will consistently meter out loads within .1 grain. The extruded powders I have to weigh as the charges thrown can have discrepancies that are unacceptable for LR shooting. (Must keep those fps as close as possible!)

Powders I have used for .223>>BLC-2 (dirty burning but good for the 69 SMK...my rifle)  AA 2520>>>60g Vmax bullets...Whoo hoo !  Win 748  again these are ball powders. I have not used Varget...mainly because it is extremely hard to get here. Most is gone , bought up by the competition shooters ( What does that tell you??) , before it hits the shelves. (Gotta get on that list  

edit to clarify something

[siglite]

I have not used Varget...mainly because it is extremely hard to get here. Most is gone , bought up by the competition shooters ( What does that tell you??) , before it hits the shelves.

I've had really good results using varget both in .223 and .308.  It's a nice, medium burn-rate powder that as long as you stay roughly a grain short of the max load in either caliber, fills the case just short of being compressed.  It burns clean, too. 

My recipes are as such:

.308:  45gr Varget sitting under 168gr BTHP Sierra Matchkings or the Hornady BTHP match.   I've heard a lot of folks crapping on the Hornady bullets, but I can't tell the difference.  I get about a minute out of my M14 using either bullet, and sub minute out of my Savage 10FPLE.  I got really lucky in that this load recipe works great in TWO rifles.  Also, it's apparently ballistically matched to the standard 7.62x51 round, because the standard "comeups" listed for the M14 work like a charm out to 500.

.223:  27gr Varget sitting under 55gr FMJBT.  I've been getting near match accuracy out of bulk bullets with this load in two rifles.  I've been getting about 1.5MOA out of both my Sig 556 and my 16" pencil barrel Colt.  Also, this load seems to be pretty close to the military trajectory, because the dial-a-kill A2 elevation wheel works with this load out to 500.  Just dial your range on and get hits. 

I suppose though, a prerequisite is that the Varget be available.  Which it is here.  I can almost always find a can at Walmart.  Lots of times, someone has hidden it behind ten pounds of unique or blue-dot.  Someone intended to come back for that can, but I'm wise to their shenanigans. 

I like Varget so much, that if it weren't on shelves here, I'd buy in 8lb cans and just eat the hazmat fee. 

Now to the OPs question:

The purpose of the crimp is to avoid a condition known as "bullet setback."  This condition is a safety issue.  Bullet setback can occur when the bolt of a semi-auto slams the cartridge forward against the feed ramps.  If there is insufficient tension on the bullet in the case neck, the bullet can be pushed further into the case as the cartridge is fed into the chamber.  If this occurs, there is less case volume at the time of ignition, and can result in an over-pressure situation, and theoretically, a kaboom.  Crimping helps avoid that condition by ensuring that the bullet does not slip further into the case.

Is it a requirement?  Well, no, not really.  A good test is to take a loaded cartridge, and measure OAL.  I then point the bullet tip-down into my reloading bench, and put as much of my weight on it as I can trying to compress the cartridge.  I then re-measure OAL.  I have yet to have a non-crimped bullet slip. 

BUT

This is a potential safety issue.  And I'm a safety kind of guy.  So I crimp, even though I don't necessarily need to.  But then, I don't test every single cartridge with the "can I smash it and make the bullet move" test, either.  So I crimp.  As mentioned above, if you are going to crimp, there are two points for accuracy.  The first of these is that you should generally use a fairly light crimp.  It doesn't take much to REALLY hold a bullet in place.  Plus, over-crimping can again cause increased pressures.  The second is that you must use a very consistent crimp, because a little bit goes such a long ways.  To have a consistent crimp, it's imperative that every one of your cases be trimmed to the EXACT same length after resizing.  I used to do this by hand.  I trimmed and measured each case to the .001.  Fortunately, last year I got a dillon powered case trimmer which has been accurate for me to the .002, which I find acceptable. 

As for the bullet cannelure, all it really does is provide a nifty guide for overall length.  "Crimp somewhere in this general vicinity."  A roll or factory crimp will have plenty of grip on the bullet, cannelure or no.  I think those cannelures are in place for quality control reasons in ultra-high-volume loading operations such as a country's military loading factories.  With that cannelure, a quality control worker can just look at the bullet, see the crimp's in the right place +/- .03 or so, and pass/fail the lot.  But that's just my guess.  It's not based on any factual knowledge, but in this case, you get what you pay for.

[AZOpie]

After almost 20 years of shooting whatever the military gave me to shoot, through whatever rifle they issued me, I started reloading a couple years ago. AZbuddy has been very helpful to me with getting started in the precision reloading, from long distance. It can be a pretty long process to find that perfect load for your rifle - each one is a bit different even if they are the same model coming from the same manufacturer. Take your time and don't get overwhelmed - and remember that there is 4 MOA (good enough) reloading and then there's precision. You might just find that a consistent "good enough" load is all you really need. I am by no means an expert handloader, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but what I do works for me so far.

For precision reloading you will need a lot of (more costly) equipment, and a lot of time to do it right. As was mentioned above, everyone has their own rituals. The way I determine what load works best is pretty simple - use same bullet, case, and primer, then load up 4 each with different powders, typically 3 charges (high, med, low) from my data book. I then fire each set of 4 at 25 yards from a bench to find my best groups. From there I will pick the best one or two powder types and then do the process all over, only in .1 grain increments starting from .3gr below to .3gr apove the previously judged best group loads. What you should see is an hourglass type pattern between your groups, but sometimes it doesn't work out quite like that as you will notice in the attached reloading log. Repeat process, changing one of the other variables (bullet, primer, or brass). You can see there's a lot of possible combinations out there.

Now if you take that a step further and use a chronograph - you will see that your best group has a specific speed. Be aware, things like temperature and humidity will have a real impact on your accuracy at distance. In Arizona I keep my rounds in a cooler in an attempt to maintain a 70 degree round, thus removing one of the variables that will affect the trajectory. I found in one measurement that each 10 degrees correlated to .1gr of powder in the charge, according to my chronograph readings. This was a learning moment for me as I had forgotten my cooler that day. There are also programs like shooting lab that you can download to play with all the variables and see how things affect each other.

Above all - enjoy your reloading time - for me it's downtime in the garage after the hectic workday - a great relaxer.

AZO

(modified to add reloading log worksheet, correct spelling, add info)

[oladcock]

AZOpie, We do things very much the same. The temperature issues is another reason I like Varget, it's supposed to be one of the most temperature stable powders there is.

"and remember that there is 4 MOA (good enough) reloading and then there's precision."

Yep, we're looking for 4 MOA..But that's a combination of shooter and the load. If I'm only capable of shooting 2MOA and my loads have a 2MOA spread, that's a 4MOA group. If I improve my loads to 1MOA, now I'm shooting 3MOA, my 2 and the loads 1. If we do something that cuts our groups in half, be it more skilled or better loads or combination of both, that doubles our effective range.

I've put together some very good loads using IMR 4198 as well and I've used it with 60gr gas checked lead bullets out of our AR's...Just because some say we shouldn't! Irritates the heck out of the low power lead bullet match shooters when I use my AR. Mostly wanted to know if it could be done in a SHTF situation where we can't buy bullets......O.L.

[nmmi9100]

I received a set of RCBS 223 full length reloading dies under the tree.  I am defiantly a newb when it comes to reloading. I would like to make ammo for my 16in bbl AR with 1/9 twist barrel. The rounds will be used for AS shoots, and ground hogs.  I am thinking about trying nosler 60gr ballistic tips, because they have a crimping cannelure, and a boat tail.

Is it important to have a cannelure on rounds use in AR-15 type rifles?

Nope.  No need to crimp in most situations.  I don't crimp for my ARs.  Don't crimp for an M14/Garand.  Don't crimp for an FAL.  But some folks like to and if you do, more power to you.  I can tell you that most highpower folks I know don't crimp because it's a negative for accuracy.  Unless you trim absolutely every time, your crimp is going to vary a little bit and that will change neck tension.  A change in neck tension reduces accuracy.  Uniform neck tension is why I anneal regularly.

Even if a round doesn't have a cannelure,  you can crimp it if you want using a LEE Factory Crimp die.  They're the better way to crimp if you do decide to crimp.

I too am a VARGET fan, largely due to its consistent burn in temperature extremes.  I use RL15 to load for service rifle 77 SMKs though.  RL15 loses some temperature stability but it meters a little better for me and its cleaner.

-David
Edgewood, NM

[Shooter30-06]

Add me to the list of those who crimp when using an autoloader.  I am of the opinion that there is a lot of buffeting going on in the mags and the crimp helps prevent slippage.  I am also reluctant to use softpoint bullets in either of my autoloaders after seeing the points deformed from the mags.

One other thing I found was that reliable feeding in my autoloaders required me to obtain small base dies rather than the standard full length resizers.  If you experience  issues with your new reloads not completely chambering you will know what it is.   

[Aromatic]

I always do a medium crimp crimp with a Lee FCD (I trim every time).  There is a good stickied thread about this on the THR.org in the reloading section (with pictures).

[oladcock]

Crimp or not to crimp? In the first 50 rounds with a new LR-10, with factory loads we had 2 completely push the bullet back into the case. Luckily we caught it, as in the gun just didn't "feel" right and needed a bump to close the carrier. It wasn't the gun, it was a magazine issue but I'm darned glad we didn't touch one of them off.

Yep, the Lee Factory Crimp is the only way to go as it's not case length critical. I would not roll crimp anything but .44 mags!   If I was doing superduper loads, I wouldn't crimp, I'd turn the case mouths, etc, and hand feed them to not get a set back or mark up the bullet on a ramp....O.L.

[Pappy]

Hello Group; Crimp or not to crimp??
   
My thoughts are You size every time, your brass gets longer every time (ish), You should trim EVERY time, and you should crimp using a tapper crimp die when using a repeater IE semi auto, or full auto, lever gun, altho bolt actions will eat a lot of poorly made ammo . If your a bench rest tack driver please do as you wish, spend countless hours wrininging the last bit out of that ctg.. I am happy with 2moa. out of surplus brass pulled bullets and bulk powder... But I shoot often understanding what components I may be using are not (match grade). Just cause you buy the expensive stuff does not mean your score will show it.
We see this same sort of stuff when the fellows buy a hand made rifle, a star gazzer hubble scope, and the best rimfire ammo he can find.... At what point does standard ammo and a rack grade rifle fail to deliver RIFLEMEN, when the shooters are brainwashed into thinking they need these new items bells and whistles, ( if I only had one of those I could shoot a realy good score )
Most shooters do not shoot enough. Most shooters do not shoot enough. With standard equipment.  Pappy

[Old Dog]

Every rifle is different (darn, I've said that so many times).

Not a single one of my M1A's, M1 Garands, AR 15, or semi auto deer rifles has ever crammed a bullet back into a case for lack of a crimp.  My rifles.

Yours might.  You need to check yours out and see how it does.

If you crimp you must make sure your cases are the same length or you may get more/less crimp from one case to the next (this is with the standard rifle dies - I have no experience with the Lee taper crimp dies - have them, just don't use them).

If you crimp too much you can swell the case neck out so far the rounds won't chamber.

I've read that nice, uniform from shell to shell, crimping can improve accurcy by making bullet "pull" more consistent.  In other words, the more consistent the force required to push the bullet out of the case the more consistent your pressure/velocity can be.

Good luck.  Experiment.  Do what works for your rifles.

[wcmartin1]

I use a light crimp with the Lee factory crimp die in my ARs and M1As.  Always have.  

Two reasons - consistent neck tension/start pressure (don't have to turn the necks to get the same result with the Lee die) and safety (no bullet setback).

The ARs are 0.5-1.0 MOA accurate and the M1As are 1.0-1.5 MOA accurate with my loads - better than I can usually hold.  

YMMV