Setting up AR's and Appleseed

[Garand69]

I agree Old Dog, We need to encourage everyone to come out, and I would love to see more centerfires come out. That's why I am being such a pain in the neck here, just tell them to come on out, instead of telling them that they need an eotech or full float handgaurd etc. Just bring your rifle and 400 rounds of ammo that your rifle likes and have at it.

Today, what we hear/read about the M4's used by the military is that they are not up to the needs of 400 to 600 yd. shooting common in Afghanistan engagements.  The AAR on Ft. Stewart training last year says the rifles and people are capable when they receive proper training but not everyone going over there is getting the training.

Old Dog I was one of the lucky one chosen to go to WSMR early this year. We were luckier than the Fort Stewart Crew because we had the same 50 soon to be SDM's for a week. Their M4's w/a variety of different optics that we had them take off for the first few days to learn Irons..... yes they were grumpy at first, but they carried on. Then some of us put their gear on to see what we could do to do better on position building (the vests and helmets were very much in the way of quality positions), we learned a few things and carried on. A few Soldier's even decided to stick with Irons out to 500yds, and they did very well despite the 25-35mph full value cross winds

Last weekend we had several LEO's attend the Bonfield, IL shoot. All had those inappropriate M4's with all the bells and whistles on including single point slings. They wanted to leave the rifles alone, because that is the way they use them for work, so we taught them how to use the single point sling to steady the rifle, built their positions and hammered the 6 steps etc etc.  Out of that we got 1 Rifleman and the rest greatly improved and very happy about the experience.

We encourage all to attend and to bring what they have. We then adapt to the shooter and to the shooters equipment. Whether it is a Soldier, a LEO or Joe the Plumber. And the end of that "First Appleseed Experience", they will have a better idea of what works and what doesn't, and if possible, will be better prepared for the next Appleseed.

U.S. Cavalryman,

Sorry for jumping all over your thread, but hope you see where I'm coming from. Let's just get the lines full, we can worry about the Rifle after it shows up

See you all on the trail

[fepowered]

Considering how few "rack grade" rifles there are at Appleseeds these days (rack grade by the CMP definition anyway) maybe that's not a description very many of the folks attending Appleseeds these days would recognize.

hmmm well I suppose if we stuck with "Run what ya brung" or "bring your favorite rifle and learn to master it", the Rack Grade could be dropped....
But on another note, are we suggesting the only "Rack Grade rifles out there are M1's or M14 parts kits??? They're no "Rack Grade" AR's out there, what about 10/22's?? Heck Old Dog you may be right. there may not be any Rack Grade AR's or 10/22's out there....... And holy cow, I just thought of something... What is the oldest Surplus ammo available for an AR??? Heck even if that DEN 42 was stored perfectly, it lacks the technology used in loading LC 90 5.56, so it most certainly will not be as consistent... right???
forum. Too many new shooters will either be turned off with the equiptment race and not show, or they will blame their missing Rifleman on the gear instead of where it
So we have two major components in accuracy, barrel condition, and ammo quality, superior to the original "intentions" of early Appleseed... Right???
It is great to encourage shooters to adapt their Rifle to work for them... at the Appleseed. It is a poor idea to put lists together with "What you need to get the job done" on the belongs... The shooter themselves.
Encouraging the run what ya brung concept does make our job more difficult... but that is why Appleseed Instructors are the best.. Right?

The current FAQ says nothing about "Rack Grade" rifle.  The term will mean nothing to most people and for those who do, the use of the term by those at Appleseed does not make sense.  We use the term as an ideal and a concept to embellish the skills of our Riflemen.  It looks like we are trying to say that any Rifleman worth their salt can use any beat up worn out surplus rifle and shoot a 210 with it.  The reality is that right now a relatively small percentage of shooters ever achieve Rifleman.  Relatively very few Rifleman scores are achieved with factory iron sights.   Of all our Riflemen, the majority are using a .22 which is in near new condition and capable of 2MOA or better groups from the factory and most all are using Tech Sights or optics.  Most anyone with an AR15 has a rifle capable of 1.5 MOA or better groups.  If you most of the program's Riflemen a worn out M1 Garand capable of only 4MOA groups, they would be in serious trouble....   Since the shooting is the hook and we are not trying to make snipers out of our shooters, we are still doing them a great service as they will have a lifelong marksmanship skill which will improve their general shooting proficiency.  
Run what 'ya brung is fine as what they will bring is likely more accurate than a real live "rack grade" rifle.  

What kind of rifle do I need? What kind of sights are allowed?

Appleseed is content-free, so in regards to sights: you can use any. Rifles? Well, you can use any safe firearm which can be accurately shot from the shoulder, from a .22 to a .32 (8mm). We're semi-auto and bolt-gun friendly. The important thing is that it works, so before you come to a shoot make sure you clean it, break it in (if need be), and lube it properly in preparation for the day. Due to the high cost of ammo, we reccommend using a .22 for the training on Saturday and if the range you are shooting at has a long distance range, then bring your center fire rifle for that on Sunday.

Today, what we hear/read about the M4's used by the military is that they are not up to the needs of 400 to 600 yd. shooting common in Afghanistan engagements.  The AAR on Ft. Stewart training last year says the rifles and people are capable when they receive proper training but not everyone going over there is getting the training.  

The source of the problem with 6oo or even "only" 400 yds and a M4 with its 16" barrel is the M855 cartridge.  The velocity loss is significant enough with the 4 less inch barrel that the terminal performance suffers.  There is a difference between making a hit at that range and achieving the desired effect at that range.  The problem has nothing to do with punching paper.

[U.S.Cavalryman]

 I intended this thread to actually not show that people didn't need to have bells and whistles. I have been reading a lot of the threads on here and you see things like you cant sling in with an AR and had to get shooter to go to irons. I simply wanted to get a thread going focused on the AR platform. I whole heartedly believe in getting people to the lines is the priority. And if someone with an AR comes to the forum looking at Appleseed and sees comments like "you need to get a battle rifle" or the previously mentioned phrases, its a turn off. Then they don't show.

We offer the BEST Basic Marksmanship instruction that I have seen. And we run off the "run what you brung" philosophy get them in the gate. I also understand we are here to Open eyes and get people off the couch. That's why I am here. I am also looking at the AR forums with more people logged in than we have registered on this forum. And on the average, there are more people looking at Hardware items than our Most Ever number. The "modular" factor of the AR is a big selling point. People like to Pimp their AR and are proud of it. Same sort of Culture as cars. Latest Mod, or trick one off piece brings people around.

I am by know means trying to game the AQT. I don't like the amount of hints we give them all ready. But, I also don't want people to show at an event unprepared and wouldn't expect anyone else to either. The harder they work for something the more it means.

No, I don't want an equipment race, or to discourage anyone from attending an Appleseed. I have been 7th Stepping with instructors from those 1000 dollar classes to get them to suggest Appleseed as a Primer for their classes. Which, while not on a high level, is going on.

I want to get to those People who have an AR, who prior adding all the bells and whistles, come out learn what we teach and apply it to all to their life.

I like that this has gotten so much attention. And I don't want it to look like I didn't Check my Ego at the door. I am just passionate about this subject. I am attempting to Stay on Mission and fill the lines.

[henschman]

When it comes to the guys with all the accessories on their rifles, there are couple varieties:  some are noobs who just bought the stuff because it looks cool or because their buddy told them it is what they need.  Then there are the more or less serious guys who are into tactical competitions like 3-gun, and/or attend tactical carbine classes, or military guys who have their own rifle set up like their service rifle, or police who are using their "patrol carbine."  These guys usually have their rifles set up the way they do for a reason... they are set up primarily for CQB shooting, and they are attending Appleseed to brush up on the fundamentals and learn some "precision marksmanship" skills to make themselves more competitive on the smaller and longer range targets. 

For the noobs, I always try to get them to take the junk off and try a GI web sling.  For the serious tactical shooters, I usually suggest that they initially do the same thing, just so they can get what an ideal sling-supported field position SHOULD feel like, before incorporating all their gear.  That way they know what they are trying to achieve, and how much of a compromise they might be making with some of their equipment. 

Sometimes you get guys who have their rifle set up a certain way, and just want to practice shooting it the best they can with that setup.  That is fine -- we are run what you brung, after all -- so I help them apply the fundamentals to their equipment the best they can.