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New member, question about rifle to use

Started by Matt S., August 06, 2010, 05:41:20 PM

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Matt S.

I've read a bit on Fred's site and about Appleseed and am quite excited to go to my first Appleseed event, hopefully in Sept. in Ottawa.  I love the way the format for the 2 days look, and I am eager to learn.  I live only about 20-30 mins away from Buffalo Rock Range.

I have a question on what rifle to use, I know I know it's been asked a zillion times, but I just am not sure so I'll ask.

I have a PTR-91 (HK G3/91 clone) that is my main rifle but .308 is quite expensive to shoot.  She's built like a tank and hits like one too.  I really like the HK sights and the rifle appears to be quite accurate even with my novice shooting skills.  I want to master the HK iron sights but I needed something to practice with that was a bit less expensive to shoot.  About a month ago I found my training gun, a GSG-522 (HK-94/MP5 clone in .22lr).  I purchased the GSG conversion kit which gave me back the original HK front sight post, and I installed a HK rear aperture for the rear sight to put it all back to Original GSG specs before HK brought that lawsuit on them.  I really like this GSG carbine.

My desire is to use the GSG .22 for training and learning the fundamentals, utilizing the HK aperture sights that match the PTR.  The GSG is a carbine, has the same HK rear stock, 16.x" length barrel (PTR has an 18") and similar round capabilities in the magazines (PTR=20, GSG=22 but could short it 2 rounds to match up).  The sling placement is the same.  I do use the HK 3 pt. sling on both rifles.  The sight length is a few inches shorter on the GSG, from back to front, but nothing I can't adapt to.  I tried laying prone and it appears to be ok for me so the little bit longer MP5 like magazines don't appear to mess with me or the ground. The GSG is a few lbs lighter in weight.

How does this sound in using the GSG for day 1?  I do plan on bringing the PTR for backup, and to use on the real long range parts of appleseed if it is required for day 2.

I know this is probably an unconventional "liberty training rifle" but she's a good gun and I figure I can learn a ton more working with the GSG, especially for the fundamentals, sling use, etc. It'll look a bit strange using a mp5 clone with faux silencer (it's basically a barrel shroud since the barrel needs to be at least 16"....) so I thought I'd ask.  Maybe it's already been done but I haven't seen the question anywhere I've looked.  

Opinions? Thoughts?  I'm all ears.  Thanks everyone and hope to see some of you soon.  I can't wait to get out there and learn on the range.
   


dragit

Take a 8.5x11 piece of paper (or whatever you want to put them on) and mark in 1" squares far enough apart that groups from one square do not overlap with the others.  Practice on those (we usually shoot 5 round groups at these) until you feel your rifle is sighted in.  Then do various drills (1 shot, change mag, 1 shot; 5 shots; 2 shots, change mag, 3 shots).  People bring what they have and that can vary quite a bit.  As long as it is reliable for 400-500 rounds a weekend, you will be good with whatever you bring.  Practice beforehand shrinking your groups and have fun when you attend an Appleseed. 
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.  Goethe

Sarah Belding: Be careful. You're a man who makes people afraid, and that's dangerous.
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.

His genius was to promote collective action in the cause of freedom... Fischer

slim

I've seen several folks use the GSG-5s at events and they work just fine as a LTR. Personally, I believe your LTR should be as much like your MBR as possible and you're doing just that. So, use it!

Definitely start off Saturday with the GSG. I'd recommend using it all weekend unless you shoot longer distances and require the PT-91. For your first Appleseed, you really don't need to shoot the big boy rifle as you'll be honing your "new" skills and you can do that while saving money with the 22. Bring the PT for sure, but plan on shooting the GSG the whole time until you're "ready" to use the PT. (Not dogging your skills at all... you'll know when it's time.)   

Make sure you have at least two mags and also make sure you can secure the GI sling like you would to a "normal" stock. (Under the forearm and at the rear of the buttstock.) Some of the HKs (and clones) only allow the sling to be affixed to the side of the forearm, and that will work OK, but it definitely needs to be affixed to the rear of the buttstock, not up near the trigger.

You can install sling studs directly into the polymer stock or you can use a zip tie or something to create an anchor point.

Happy Appleseeding!

voortrekker

#4
Hello Matt,

Dragit and slim have given you some good advice.

slim and other Instructors that have seen the GSG-522 on the line, PLEASE comment.

I took the liberty of researching the GSG-522.

I've never shot one of these rifles and have never seen one on the firing line.

Looking at the rifle on the makers website : http://www.gsg-waffen.de/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=45&Itemid=79&lang=en

It does not have a sling attachment in the fore end given the pics of the rifle I saw in the link above.  In this case, you can secure a sling with some wire or a plastic zip tie on the barrel and attach it to a sling, we do this all the time at events and it works.

We use slings at Appleseed to secure one's shooting postion and this is VERY important to shoot the best you can shoot.

In addition, the mags on that rifle as seen in the pics from the link given above look really long.

Long mags, especially in prone, will cause problems in your shoot platform, because they get in the way of the sling and may not allow you to get in prone without the mag touching the ground.  This is not ideal.

My advice is this, definitely practice with this rifle before you get to a Appleseed event.  Like dragit said, get a blank piece of paper, color in a one inch square, shoot it at 25 yds while slung up in prone, see what happens.  Can you get in prone without the mag getting in the way of your sling?  Does the mag prevent you from getting into prone without the mag touching the ground?

Your idea of learning the fundamentals with the GSG-522 is good because the sights are the same as the PTR-91, but that shouldn't be an absolute, in my opinion.

If you can, borrow a 10/22 ruger or a marlin 795 from a friend with at least two factory mags, just in case the GSG-522 doesn't work out as well. you will thank yourself.

If you can't borrow the above rifles, don't let this stop you from attending the shoot, no matter what, I know with absolute certainty you will learn a great deal on how to become a better rifle marksman and some of the most important events in our Republics history.  Good stuff!


Welcome to Appleseed.


I hope this helps and have fun!!


Brett out.
If YOU are thinking, WE are winning.

CaptG

You've taken a great approach to getting in good practice time with a more economical platform while still having similar controls etc.
We had a shooter with the GSG 522 at one of the College Station shoots earlier this year. It ran fine even in in the rain and mud. I still shoot 90% of  the time with my 10/22 LTR and only run 50 - 60 rds a month through my centerfires. I'll bet  a lot of other's do the same.
Guy
"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
Winston Churchill

George63

#6
--------------------------

slim

Quote from: voortrekker on August 06, 2010, 11:22:20 PMslim and other Instructors that have seen the GSG-522 on the line, PLEASE comment.

I took the liberty of researching the GSG-522.

I've never shot one of these rifles and have never seen one on the firing line.

Looking at the rifle on the makers website : http://www.gsg-waffen.de/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=45&Itemid=79&lang=en

It does not have a sling attachment in the fore end given the pics of the rifle I saw in the link above.  In this case, you can secure a sling with some wire or a plastic zip tie on the barrel and attach it to a sling, we do this all the time at events and it works.

We use slings at Appleseed to secure one's shooting postion and this is VERY important to shoot the best you can shoot.

In addition, the mags on that rifle as seen in the pics from the link given above look really long.

Long mags, especially in prone, will cause problems in your shoot platform, because they get in the way of the sling and may not allow you to get in prone without the mag touching the ground.  This is not ideal.
I've shot one and it's a pretty decent little rifle, especially for those with an HK platform MBR. I didn't have problems with the mags touching the ground but it's definitely something the shooter will have to overcome with the MBR too if necessary. I do not recommend switching rifles if your mags touch the ground. I recommend switching mags or building your position around the rifle and mags you have. It's important to learn "the right way" (mag not touching the ground and body in the proper position) but it's also important to use what you have to get your task accomplished. You may encounter an MBR that requires some "body morphing" in order to get into a good shooting position. That doesn't necessarily mean you have the wrong rifle.   

As reiterated, make sure there's a place to anchor the sling. That sling is AMAZING when it comes to accuracy and how easy it makes shooting, especially when shooting the big boy rifle. If you can't put a sling on your rifle, I'd suggest switching to one with a sling in order to learn "the right way" and then I'll bet you'll figure out a way to rig up a sling to your rifle. I've seen a shooter literally tie a rope around his arm and loop it over the end of his barrel. He went from a 150 to a 207 and noted with a chuckle that "next time, I'll get my gear straight before I come."

Quote from: voortrekker on August 06, 2010, 11:22:20 PMYour idea of learning the fundamentals with the GSG-522 is good because the sights are the same as the PTR-91, but that shouldn't be an absolute, in my opinion.
I'm a firm believer in having your LTR replicate your MBR as much as possible. While it's not 100% necessary to learn the fundamentals (you can do that with a simulated rifle and sights.... dry firing the whole time!) and you can learn them with a borrowed rifle, it is important to build that muscle memory while practicing. Once you've learned the fundamentals, you should be doing all your practicing on your MBR. To save money and get more practice in (smaller ranges, more shooting) a LTR is a good alternative and as such, it should be built to replicate the MBR as much as possible.

I'm typing this specifically for the OP, Matt S., because he's read stuff on Fred's Sight and is considering his LTR/MBR relationship more than some of our first-time attendees. If you're reading this saying, "What is an MBR?" then by all means, you should get a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795! Fundamentals first!

slim

Quote from: CaptG on August 06, 2010, 11:43:39 PMI still shoot 90% of  the time with my 10/22 LTR and only run 50 - 60 rds a month through my centerfires. I'll bet  a lot of other's do the same.
Me too. That's the way to do it!

My MBR is an AR-15 so my LTR is a 10/22 with pistol grip stock and Tech-Sights. Close enough for me and within my budget. (Back before all those fancy new M-4 .22s came out. Heck, I still can't afford those things!)

EEL

Matt / Mistraven,

You bring that beauty on out.  It will work just fine!  Now as for Ottawa in Sept......Might I suggest you coming out to the 300 shoot in Waterman on Sept 11-12.

It will be a shoot you won't want to miss!  300 shooters on one line.  A line that stretches 400 yards long.  1st volley at the Redcoat, almost 4,000 rounds in under 1 minute!   :--- :--- :---

About 1/2 hour from Ottawa right up Rt  23.  Seriously, this one will be talked about for years to come.  You can either live it.........or read about it. #)

Your call  ;)

EEL
Do not fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have war......Let it start here.

bedford

This may be a little off topic but the German Army used .22 conversion kits in the g3's, like here: http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1147&idcategory=

I am wondering when GSG will come up with an M-14 .22! 

Mistraven

#11
Thank you for the ideas and thoughts everyone, it was just what I was looking for.  A question that was brought up:

Quote from: voortrekker on August 06, 2010, 11:22:20 PM

Looking at the rifle on the makers website : http://www.gsg-waffen.de/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=45&Itemid=79&lang=en

It does not have a sling attachment in the fore end given the pics of the rifle I saw in the link above.  In this case, you can secure a sling with some wire or a plastic zip tie on the barrel and attach it to a sling, we do this all the time at events and it works.


There are identical sling attachment points on both the PTR and GSG, HK style.  Eyelet in the front near the front sight post, and a flat "hook"? style on the rear stock.  I have HK 3-point slings mounted on both rifles right now.  I've noted that the GI type sling is always talked about, is the HK 3 point sling compatible to this style/philosophy? Here is a good illustration.  

http://www.rollanet.org/~stacyw/german_h&k_g3_sling.htm

Pretty flexible sling, I like it, the guns I'm sure the guns could utilize other styles of slings.


I took the PTR and GSG out to the range yesterday.  High noon blazing.  My shooting glasses and eyes were all fogged up, sweat pouring down my face.  Shot half a box of Federal value pack .22 with not a hiccup on the GSG, and put another 100 rounds of silver bear and wolf .308 through the PTR, not one issue.  I was blasting things with really good accuracy again, with the PTR, 50 yard rifle and the plinking pit.  The PTR is fully my go to girl, it just feels natural holding it and lining up the sights.  I do need to work on my cheek weld, as getting sloppy my right upper cheek takes a beating, this is the 2nd time she's giving me a black looking eye from the kisses she gives me.   ++)

This was my 50yard shoot when I first sighted the PTR in a month ago, my 4th clip. 



Now on the flip side with the carbine, I had a good amount of trouble with the GSG.  She fed every round, no reliability issues.  It was problems ironically with getting the sights lined up.  My targets were two small, too many, and I only had a pair of 4x28/32 binoculars with me to spot myself.  I think the sights were so far left that I put maybe 2 rounds on my paper, the rest were nowhere to be found!  Luckily nobody was to my immediate left with targets, they would have been quite confused.  With the vision issues I was having with the sweat/fogged shooting glasses, I just went back to plinking to try and minimally zero the iron sights on the GSG.  :wall: I have them close now I think, within 6 inches or so.  I need to find some more range time to sight her in better with paper now, going to purchase some of those good bullet showing targets too so I can actually see my shots.  

It's a bit hard to get out to shoot however, my only place really is the Ottawa range.  I wish I had a friend that had some land outside town or an easier private place to go practice.  Forced bench shooting on the rifle range isn't going to allow me to grow, either is shooting at stupid things in a pit.  I'm having fun now don't get me wrong, especially again with my girl the PTR, every shot is a joy.  Just need some change of scenery I think!    

I'll have to see what I can swing for the other shoots, main issue right now is $$.  Been working lots of overtime though so it's keeping me even.  Thanks again everyone.

Matt