LTR or M1?

[SGTCap]

Look at it this way.

Eventually you will have both.

You can get the LTR first and shoot it cheaply while saving for another rifle.  All the while honing your skills as a riflemen and having a good time in the process.

or..

But the LR now and let it spend considerably more time collecting dust while you save for a LTR which is going to be a longer journey because everytime you hit the range your out $40.00 for ammo. 

I say stick with the LTR.

[cannonman61]

Guys,

For what its worth, I think the disagreement is sort of silly. The point of all this is to get everyone up to rifleman speed.

To do this buy, if you dont already have a rifle, the rifle you want. Commit to firing whatever you buy, using the techniques taught here, a min of 40rds once or twice a month to become proficient.

Then, eval what you have and what you want to be able to do. The story is different for evryone!

None of us should make judgements on a mans choice of equipment unless it seriously impedes his journey to rifleman status. Just by trying the man is "waking up" and becomes an ally to be counted on.

Sow the seeds. Different rifles will pop up, but just like there are lots of phylum of apples, (Red, yellow, green, gold) there will be lots of different rifles. And, they are all good. To each his own and learn.

CM61

[ken grant]

 To have only one rifle and for it to serve for almost anything needed, buy an AR,Mini 14 or any other rifle that you can get a .22 LR conversion kit for.
Learn with the .22,shoot cheap and shoot a lot.
Still have the .223/5.56 for backup in case of need.
The 5.56 may not be a MBR but it has served for many years all over the world and is going strong.

[EJ]

If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

[SGTCap]

Guys,

For what its worth, I think the disagreement is sort of silly. The point of all this is to get everyone up to rifleman speed.

To do this buy, if you dont already have a rifle, the rifle you want. Commit to firing whatever you buy, using the techniques taught here, a min of 40rds once or twice a month to become proficient.

Then, eval what you have and what you want to be able to do. The story is different for evryone!

None of us should make judgements on a mans choice of equipment unless it seriously impedes his journey to rifleman status. Just by trying the man is "waking up" and becomes an ally to be counted on.

Sow the seeds. Different rifles will pop up, but just like there are lots of phylum of apples, (Red, yellow, green, gold) there will be lots of different rifles. And, they are all good. To each his own and learn.

CM61

Take your logic somewhere else, this is a board for gun owners and there will be none of that here 


BTW Cheap 22s can be had used for under $100 as not to disrupt your budget too much.

[Junior Birdman]

  EJ, The purpose of the LTR lies in the name, so think capitol T.  I shoot all manner of rifles, AR, M14, M1, etc, and when the groups go awry, I pick up the LTR. Why? Because it TRAINS me.

  Trigger control? Try not following though with that 22" Wal Mart special and see what happens. The rote training on the LTR directly translates to the trigger  on the other rifles and I not only save money on the cost of ammo by shooting .22, I save on the .30 and .223 as well, because each shot from the .30 or .223 is well placed, so I need to shoot it less.  The sight picture, proper breathing, magazine changes, all tranlate to the other rifles.

   I've found that folks who shoot only a .30 typically put off practice because of the costs, meaning less proficiency. Having the .22 in the fleet makes it easier to get out to the range, meaning more proficiency.  You can train to proficiency in the operation of a MBR in a matter of minutes. Training to proficiency in the fundamentals of marksmanship takes a lot of repetition and ongoing practice to build in the muscle memory and habits.  The money you save on .30 ammo will more than pay for the LTR. (.22 being 1/10 the cost of .30 or .223)

   My typical range day sees a lot of .22 at 25m, then perhaps 50 or 60 rounds of .30 at long ranges to make sure the data I have is good and reaquaint myself with the rifle and it's operation.

  I agree with Sgt C. You're likely going to end up with both anyway for the reasons explained, but if I had to chose the first one, it'd be a .22. Then when you acquire the MBR, you'll learn to shoot it well in less time/ rounds because you have the fundamentals down cold.

   Of course, this is free advice.     JB

 

[EJ]

The purpose of the LTR is to teach you to shoot, not replace, a LR.  Buying an LTR first simply means that the shooter can expend little money and obtain tens of thousands of rounds of practice.  Practicing sight alignment, breathing, trigger pull, positions.   The disciplice of shooting can be learned with either rifle, and they are parallel paths toward the same objective of riflery.  I'm less interested in which rifle is finally selected as I am delighted that a fellow wants to learn how to shoot who formerly did not.  For the purpose of learning to shoot, both rifles work.  They're different tools with different physical and economic implications. 

Thank you; that was my line of thinking as well.

Thanks to the others that offered helpful and insightful advise as well; it is very much appreciated.


In my own situation, I feel that training trumps hardware; and failing to train, is training to fail. 

[cannonman61]

[

Thank you; that was my line of thinking as well.

Thanks to the others that offered helpful and insightful advise as well; it is very much appreciated.

In my own situation, I feel that training trumps hardware; and failing to train, is training to fail. 
[/quote]

Good one EJ! I like that one!

CM61

[AZRedhawk44]

Ummm, No. The Enfield 2-piece stock uses a through-bolt which can be tightened through the buttplate trap. If necessary, extra washers can be installed to take up any slack. In addition, the No 4's were available with 3 different length buttstocks to fit different sized Tommies (and people think the AR is the 1st "modular" rifle...) The Win. 94 uses upper and lower tangsand is a much weaker system, as well as being more difficult to bed correctly.
  The .303 is the ballistic brother to the .30 US (.30/40 Krag round) and much more effective at range than either of the 2 calibers you mentioned. 174 grs. at 2500 is rifle territory, not carbine. Most domestic commercial ammo is loaded light, but the same is true of 8x57, 7x57, 6.5x55, etc. etc.

I'm sorry; I sit humbly corrected.  I was not aware that the stock could be fixed that easily, and that the .303 was as powerful as you pointed out.  The loads I have come across advertised a 150gr bullet around 2400fps, rather than the standard 2700-ish fps common to .308, .30-06 and others.  I have since done some research on hodgdon and alliant powder loading resources and have seen 2700+fps capable for 150gr bullets.

I apologize for my slurs against the .303 British and the Enfield rifle.  They are apparently unfounded.

I still like the Mosin more though.   

EJ:

Don't listen to Paul Shanks.

If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

No matter what anyone here tells you a 22 is not a substitute for a M1 garand.  It cannot even in the hands of an expert kill anything at 500 yards or even 400 yards.  If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

Now please correct me If i'm wrong on any of the following points-

A rifleman can hit (and presumably kill) men consistently at out to 500 yards
the reason for hitting men at 500 yards is to defend the country and our freedoms
every rifleman should be able to do that when called upon with a rifle and ammo provided by him
applesed program is to train RIFLEMEN (and not smallbore champions)
the LTR is a good refresher tool to maintain the abilities of a rifleman
the LTR cannot perform the tasks required of it by a rifleman and therefore is not a rifle
a Rifleman without a rifle is a cook
therefore... LTR=SPATULA

A guy who can hit with an LTR is worth a lot more to me than a guy who CAN'T hit with a rifle he can't handle.  Get an LTR (or at least SOMETHING you can afford to shoot; doesn't have to be a Ruger 10/22).  Learn to shoot it.  Learn to shoot it well.  When/if bad things happen, there are lots of spare rifles out in the world.  Someone like me will be looking for a rifleman who can use one of my spare bangsticks with proficiency.

And that .22 will still work just fine; like the squirrel blunderbusses of 1775 along the road between Concord and Boston, it will drop a "redcoat" equivalent at up to 100 yards with a proper headshot; maybe even farther.

[Paul Shanks]

If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

Actually I was aiming for humour with the "sting like the dickens" thing, but the rest of it is dead serious.  I meant every single word of it.  If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you, that you cant afford the 32 cents a round for CMP ammo, then you really do need to look at other ways to serve.  Rifle , ammo, and skill are all part and parcel to being a rifleman.  This nonsense that you can somehow make a difference politically without the tools to  institute change is absurd in the extreme.

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

You guys can berate me all you want.  Not one of you has disputed a single point of the ones i listed.  If you cant prove them wrong then they must be right.  You can give me 'yeah, but's' all day long and it wont do a darn thing to get this fella armed and trained.

I would remind you that this stuff I'm telling you comes directly from freds guide and his articles.  The great one has spoken on this.  It's not just some mean guy named Paul telling you this.

I dont disagree with the LTR, but it comes AFTER you have learned to shoot and operate your main rifle.  The LTR is for markmanship training not RIFLEMAN training.  And thats the goal of appleseed... to train RIFLEMEN.  It's why we are all here.

Better still listen to good old kengrant (another newb i presume )get an AR/mini-14 and a ciener kit.  It's cheaper than 2 guns, allows the same manual of arms, ammo is cheaper in both calibers etc, etc.

Y'all just keep on your course and ignore disrespectful, mean ol Paul.  He dont know nothin anyway.  LTR is king, everything can be learned at 25 yards, you can just borrow a rifle if you need one.

Paul Shanks

[ken grant]

 Old Ken Grant <<<<<<<< not a newb
Attended RWVA Rifleman's Boot Camp #1----made Rifleman shooting M14A
Attended Toccoa Appleseed #1-----shooting same Rifle
Have run a couple of Mini's at Gun Club
Run Grandkids and Great-Grandkids through AQT's all the time.

Due to physical problems, I have gone mostly to AR's and Conversion kits but have two LTR's for the kids and myself at times.
At Toccoa, I furnished ammo for myself, son and grandson along with rifles. M14A,Ar15 and 10/22 LTR plus paid fees for myself and son.
Very expensive weekend!!!!!
AR,Mini14 ,etc. with coversion kit is the way to go as I see it.

[EJ]

If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you...

This is an assumption on your part from having no perspective on my personal circumstances.

[SGTCap]

If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

Actually I was aiming for humour with the "sting like the Jerkens" thing, but the rest of it is dead serious.  I meant every single word of it.  If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you, that you cant afford the 32 cents a round for CMP ammo, then you really do need to look at other ways to serve.  Rifle , ammo, and skill are all part and parcel to being a rifleman.  This nonsense that you can somehow make a difference politically without the tools to  institute change is absurd in the extreme.

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

You guys can berate me all you want.  Not one of you has disputed a single point of the ones i listed.  If you cant prove them wrong then they must be right.  You can give me 'yeah, but's' all day long and it wont do a darn thing to get this fella armed and trained.

I would remind you that this stuff I'm telling you comes directly from freds guide and his articles.  The great one has spoken on this.  It's not just some mean guy named Paul telling you this.

I dont disagree with the LTR, but it comes AFTER you have learned to shoot and operate your main rifle.  The LTR is for markmanship training not RIFLEMAN training.  And thats the goal of appleseed... to train RIFLEMEN.  It's why we are all here.

Better still listen to good old kengrant (another newb i presume )get an AR/mini-14 and a ciener kit.  It's cheaper than 2 guns, allows the same manual of arms, ammo is cheaper in both calibers etc, etc.

Y'all just keep on your course and ignore disrespectful, mean ol Paul.  He dont know nothin anyway.  LTR is king, everything can be learned at 25 yards, you can just borrow a rifle if you need one.

Paul Shanks

Your so far out of line it's sinful.

[Nickle]

OK, EJ, question time on some of this, and a few comments on some of the suggestions.

The reasoning behind recommending an M1 Garand well up on the list is that CMP is planning on being out of the M1 business by the end of 2008, if possible. Their thoughts are that the next POTUS is likely to not be "gun friendly", so they're pushing them as hard as they can for now.

They have RUN OUT of M1's before, in the past couple of years, as well as 1903's and 03-A3's. CMP's prices can NOT be beat, unless you find a friend or a fool to sell you an M1 for the same or less (my Winchester M1 came from a GOOD friend).

So, I will suggest you get the LTR now, and the M1 later, if you can this year. The LTR makes an awesome trainer, and in the hands of a good shot, is effective (somewhat) out to 100 (plus a little) yards. But, MBR it isn't.

For the SMLE (Lee Enfield) fans out there, I have to say an Enfield is NOT a good deal any more (about $200 for one in good shape). Surplus ammo isn't all that plentiful, and military ammo is out of production. The 8mm Mauser military ammo is also out of production (for the most part) and the rifles are all that cheap, either, unless you get a Yugo or VZ-24, both of which are the best Mausers out there.

The Mosin Nagant, on the other hand, is still a good deal, military ammo is still being made, commercial ammo can be had cheap and the rifle is between a .308 and .30-06, power/trajectory wise. Avoid the M38 or M44 Carbines, though. Kick like a mule, obnoxious and less accurate. Get the 91/30, they can be had (wholesale) for about $60 to $75. The Finnish Mosins are really good, but cost about $200 (Wholesale).

I know some folks are going to dispute my comments on ammo availability and cost, remember, I'm in the ammo business (manufacturing and sales, part time), and I can tell you, do your homework (check Century arms), times have changed. 40 years ago, .303 ammo was easier to find than 7.62x54R, and 8mm Mauser was in between. No more.

[Santander]

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

A rifle doth not a rifleman make.
If you have the skills of a rifleman and can demonstrate them then you are a rifleman. Those rifleman skills, once learned on an LTR, MBR, or your favorite hunting rifle, are almost completely portable.

[raf]

If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

Actually I was aiming for humour with the "sting like the Jerkens" thing, but the rest of it is dead serious.  I meant every single word of it.  If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you, that you cant afford the 32 cents a round for CMP ammo, then you really do need to look at other ways to serve.  Rifle , ammo, and skill are all part and parcel to being a rifleman.  This nonsense that you can somehow make a difference politically without the tools to  institute change is absurd in the extreme.

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

You guys can berate me all you want.  Not one of you has disputed a single point of the ones i listed.  If you cant prove them wrong then they must be right.  You can give me 'yeah, but's' all day long and it wont do a darn thing to get this fella armed and trained.

I would remind you that this stuff I'm telling you comes directly from freds guide and his articles.  The great one has spoken on this.  It's not just some mean guy named Paul telling you this.

I dont disagree with the LTR, but it comes AFTER you have learned to shoot and operate your main rifle.  The LTR is for markmanship training not RIFLEMAN training.  And thats the goal of appleseed... to train RIFLEMEN.  It's why we are all here.

Better still listen to good old kengrant (another newb i presume )get an AR/mini-14 and a ciener kit.  It's cheaper than 2 guns, allows the same manual of arms, ammo is cheaper in both calibers etc, etc.

Y'all just keep on your course and ignore disrespectful, mean ol Paul.  He dont know nothin anyway.  LTR is king, everything can be learned at 25 yards, you can just borrow a rifle if you need one.

Paul Shanks

I agree with some of your message, and disagree with some, also.  Doesn't matter much, I reckon.  Everybody has their own take on things.

What does matter, though, is that your wording of your posts is needlessly abrasive.  IOW, you are pissing off people that should be your friends.

Best of luck to ya, though.  FWIW, I'm guessing you'll need some luck.

[EJ]

The reasoning behind recommending an M1 Garand well up on the list is that CMP is planning on being out of the M1 business by the end of 2008, if possible. Their thoughts are that the next POTUS is likely to not be "gun friendly", so they're pushing them as hard as they can for now.

They have RUN OUT of M1's before, in the past couple of years, as well as 1903's and 03-A3's. CMP's prices can NOT be beat, unless you find a friend or a fool to sell you an M1 for the same or less (my Winchester M1 came from a GOOD friend).

Excellent; thank you! That is exactly the type of info. I was hoping to glean from this thread. I was totally unaware of that fact. That is definitely a worthy point of consideration.

I had already decided on getting an M1 from CMP; that was one of my main motivations in joining the RWVA.    I'll plan on eating a lot of Ramen if need be. 

So, just what are the chances of pulling a lemon from the rack grades? 

Never been much of a gambler and I have no intimate knowledge of surplus firearms/ammo. Frankly, the "lower" grade descriptions from CMP sound awfully similar to a disclaimer. 

[didactic]

Just one man's experience:  I got two rack-grade M-1's from CMP a couple of years ago, mail-order, luck of the draw.  Both were somewhat frayed around the edges but fully serviceable, and they shoot at least as well as I do.

[Old Dog]

I've got a couple of things to say about .22's.

This quote is from Hatcher's Book of the Garand (again):

"The caliber .22 rifle can be used to much greater extent for training than it is at present."

The book was written in 1948 by a retired Major General of the US Army who spent almost 30 years in the Army.  Of those years almost 25 years was in ordnance development, training and on shooting teams.  If he believed .22's should be used more for training why would anyone argue against that?  

I've said this one before.  My 10/22 is pretty much stock except for the Tech Sights, the 1&1/4" sling swivels and GI web sling and the butt stock extension (to make it fit my long arms better).  I've actually gotten into a good sling supported prone position with my 10/22, got my sight picture, worked through my NPOA exercise and then started "looking" for the M1/M1A safety with my trigger finger before realizing it ain't my MBR!  It may not load like an M1 (with the magazines I have it actually does load similar to an M1A) but you can't beat it for really good, really inexpensive training at 25 yds., or even farther (50 to 100 yds.)  Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.  

I like my ciener kit for the CAR, too.  But I'm going to buy at least one more 10/22 for my son.

[Nickle]

About CMP M1's.

The difference between a Rack Grade and a Service Grade is how much the barrel is worn, nothing more.

CMP rifles are what they say they are, and as to overall condition, it's luck of the draw. My Winchester came from CMP (before me), and I think the stock that was on it still had the bark on it, it was SO ugly. It was 100% safe and shoots real well, though. I simply replaced the stock with one I already had, and got a Winchester stock later (my bit, I wanted the rifle to be as close as possible to configuration it was in in 1943, when it was made).

I can say right up front, that no matter which grade you get from CMP, if they say it's shootable, it is. If the barrel is worn out, they either replace it with a usable barrel, or strip the rifle for the receiver. I'm buying a receiver soon for M1 #2, I've got all the parts but the receiver already. They check barrel wear, headspace and overall safe condition before selling them.

So, the odds of pulling a total lemon from "luck of the draw" at CMP is about zero.

[BoltGuy]

I just bought a field grade and the bore gauges under a 1.  The only part on the rifle that is in need of replacement is the rear sight cover/spring.  I picked out my rifle at the South Store though... and as I went down the line of field grades only 2-3 gauged less than a 1, a good amount gauged less than 3, and there were a good handfull that were well over 3 and swallowed the gauge. 


You need to ask yourself what you are looking for.  Do you want a rifle to train with and shoot on a regular basis?  Build an LTR.  Do you want a MBR in case of SHTF?  There are tons of options... maybe an SKS with Tech Sights?  7.62x39 is cheaper than .223, .308, .303, .30-06... It just might be the cheapest centerfire rifle round(either it or the 7.62x54R). 

I myself bought the Garand for the sake of history.  I love history and always have.  Heck, I started out as a history major in college(that was before I realized that a history major will never make any money).  I bought the M1 because I wanted a piece of history AND I wanted something I could practice with out to 500 yards(I already have a .22 bolt action that is plenty accurate out to 100 yards... accurate enough that I qualified rifleman with it at an Appleseed). 

You can always buy a M1A later on in life if you don't care about getting a Garand.  That being said, if you really do want an original GI garand you need to get one NOW.  You might consider just getting the M1 Garand and instead of buying $300 worth of ammo you buy a .22 and some ammo. 

Like I said, it all depends on what you want.  I've been dry firing the Garand every night this week after I humiliated myself at the range the first time I used my Garand.

Good luck and I hope you are happy with your decision.  Spend some time running the numbers(Seriously... I made an Excel spreadsheet showing all of my options before I bought my CMP Garand), and spend some time deciding what you are REALLY looking for in your rifle.  Whatever you do, make sure you get yourself to the first Appleseed in your area with whatever you buy!

None of us can tell you what YOU want, you need to decide that.

[socalserf]

Off topic, sorry.



"I live in NH; it seems BG's don't care to commit as many crimes when there is just as good a chance that their intended victim may be better armed than they are."

New Hampshire-Live free or die!!

Nice.

Serf

[EJ]

You need to ask yourself what you are looking for.  Do you want a rifle to train with and shoot on a regular basis?  Build an LTR.  Do you want a MBR in case of SHTF?  There are tons of options... maybe an SKS with Tech Sights?  7.62x39 is cheaper than .223, .308, .303, .30-06... It just might be the cheapest centerfire rifle round(either it or the 7.62x54R). 


None of us can tell you what YOU want, you need to decide that.

Good point. 

Ultimately I would like to have, at a minimum, a "trainer" and an MBR.

For an MBR, I was considering an M1A or a FAL, but the prices I've seen on those keep them out of my reach for the foreseeable future. The M1 just seemed to be the next "best", most cost effective, solution. No sentimentality involved.

My considerations for choosing an MBR were reliability, accuracy, availability of ammo, ease of maintenance/availability of parts.

This is all just theoretical pre-planning, as I have never even held any of the rifles mentioned. My choices are basically coming from recommendations from books, websites, & friends ( who know much more than I on the subject.)

New Hampshire-Live free or die!!

Nice.

Serf

I prefer just Live Free! 

[Nickle]

socalserf, even most of our Liberals are armed, up here in Northern New England (NH, VT, ME) and Upstate NY.

EJ, as the owner of a FAL, M14 clone (Fed Ord version of the M1A) and an M1, I can tell you the M1 is NOT a bad choice. Between the 3 there is NO bad choice. A FAL can be had for more than the M1, but less than an M1A/M14 clone.

You may want to contact crak and see what he's got going over the near term. He owns an M1A, and there's several folks around that have M1's and FAL's.

If you haven't finalized this before the West Leb/WRJ gun show in Feb, let me know ahead of time, I can arrange to have all 3 there for you to handle, and an LTR as well.

[Wade]

Advise  free & desposable
Get an LTR (save some money while training) if you can aford it go to a bootcamp (weeklong training) you will most likely find riflemen there that will let you check out there rifles (take some ammo and they may let you fire them) find out what you like before you buy an MBR.
On the sks there are 3 things I do not like about it  its heavy for what it is  being a carbine 7.62x39  and the sight's.
, that being said I own 3 of them  .
I can only carry 1 rifle at a time in my truck(limeted space) so I carry my m-1 garand .
I also own a cetme but I find that the better sights on the m-1 more then make up for the  20 round mag
There is no perfact rifle  no one size fits all, just don't try to buy them all to find that out .

I hope this help's you save money and find the right MBR for you

I can tell you from my own expirence there is not much worse  then to put down your hard cash down on a rifle
only to get it to the range and find you really don't like it ( in my case it was an mas 49/56 in .308 and other's)

Is there any of us with a few rifle's that live close to you that would let you try there MBR ? I think most of us are prourd of our rifle's and love to show them off teach what we know about them etc,, just an idea.
Wade

[Spatulaman]

AZRedhawk44

You wrote-
<<I'm sorry; I sit humbly corrected.  I was not aware that the stock could be fixed that easily, and that the .303 was as powerful as you pointed out.  The loads I have come across advertised a 150gr bullet around 2400fps, rather than the standard 2700-ish fps common to .308, .30-06 and others.  I have since done some research on hodgdon and alliant powder loading resources and have seen 2700+fps capable for 150gr bullets.

I apologize for my slurs against the .303 British and the Enfield rifle.  They are apparently unfounded.

I still like the Mosin more though.    >>

No apologies needed. In spite of all the political turmoil around us and facing us, the economic uncertainties, and the fact that our way of life is vanishing (which is what we're currently fighting), we still live in the greatest country in the world, which is, as Col. Cooper put it, "The last best hope for the world." We should ALL take a moment or two and reflect and rejoice upon that fact, one small aspect of which is that we have so many choices available to us!
Spat-

PS. I never said that the Mosin was not a good choice, I just think there are better ones available....

  PPS. I appreciate the your being man enough to apologize. Acts of contrition are few and far between around here....

[EJ]

About CMP M1's.

The difference between a Rack Grade and a Service Grade is how much the barrel is worn, nothing more.

I can say right up front, that no matter which grade you get from CMP, if they say it's shootable, it is.

So, the odds of pulling a total lemon from "luck of the draw" at CMP is about zero.

Thanks. With the M1, I'm mainly concerned with proper function, not cosmetics.  Don't have any desire to find out, after a few hundred rounds sent downrange, that I need to replace a major component.

If you haven't finalized this before the West Leb/WRJ gun show in Feb, let me know ahead of time, I can arrange to have all 3 there for you to handle, and an LTR as well.

That would be awesome; I will be moving to a new apt. at the end of Jan. and I recently wrecked the tranny in my p.o.s. car; so everything is still up n the air at this point. I'm not one to let challenges hold me back and figure, I will at least try to do the best I can, with what I have.

There is no perfact rifle  no one size fits all, just don't try to buy them all to find that out .

I hope this help's you save money and find the right MBR for you

I can tell you from my own expirence there is not much worse  then to put down your hard cash down on a rifle
only to get it to the range and find you really don't like it ( in my case it was an mas 49/56 in .308 and other's)

Is there any of us with a few rifle's that live close to you that would let you try there MBR ? I think most of us are prourd of our rifle's and love to show them off teach what we know about them etc,, just an idea.
Wade

Thanks Wade; good advice. I have been through that with musical instruments; exactly why I'm doing my homework and hoping to get some practical hands on experience before a purchase.

As soon as I am in a position to try out some rifles, I will be asking around.   

[dwarven1]

Little late to this thread... wow, lots of emotion running around here!

EJ, I'm down in Marlboro, MA, and can let you try out a stock 10/22, an LTR, AND a Garand. Not to mention a "bubba-ized" Enfield (someone put a scope on it). Feel free to shoot me a PM any time.

I'll also be ordering parts and changing my stock 10/22 into an LTR, so if you want to come down and observe the process, that's fine, too.


BTW... since I'm not native to MA, I reject the title of MA******... I prefer to say that I'm a refugee from NJ.    Yes, we have true Americans in both states. Sorely outnumbered, but we're here.

[EJ]

BTW... since I'm not native to MA, I reject the title of MA******...

No disrespect intended; being labeled a MA****** is from ones state of mind and actions; not simply due to residence or birthplace.   


Thank you for the offer. 

[dwarven1]

No offense taken.