LTR or M1?

[EJ]

Hi all;

If someone could only afford to purchase a LTR or a rack-grade M1;( w/o having the option of hand-picking; never mind possible replacement parts/ammo) which would be the wiser investment?

Any alternative advice/suggestions for us "po" folk? 

T.I.A 

EJ

[Nickle]

I would say the M1, but only because they're currently available from CMP for about half (or less) what they go for at gun shows.

My full suggestion is this:

1. M1

2. Then an LTR, building it as you go.

3. Then maybe add an SKS or AR.

4. Start buying cheaper bolt action surplus rifles from there (back-up/give out guns).

When you are money limited, things get put in different perspectives.

Let's say you have only a couple hundred dollars to work with, and not much on an ongoing basis. Buy an SKS, tart it up a little (sights), and learn to shoot it.

Got a little more to work with up front? Buy a CMP M1.

Got a small amount now, but can add to it over time (say about $100 to $150 a month)? Buy an AR lower receiver and do a build. Sure, it'll take you a few months to get it done, but what other choices do you really have?

Flat out dirt poor ($100, and little prospect to add to that)? Get a Mosin Nagant (a Finn or a 91/30, NOT an M44), and learn to use it. They work. I've got a lot of rifles, and I own 3 Mosins.

As to whether to buy an LTR or not, it depends on what you can afford. You can build similar rifles on other platforms, though none will be as easy or effective as the 10/22. A Winchester 190 could be made very usable with a little effort (sling and Wiiliams sights). Downsides to it? Tube mag and more work.

Remember that it's the Rifleman that makes the rifle, not the other way too.

Just saw that you're in NH, EJ. Wait on the LTR for now. You can borrow one if you need to for an Appleseed. I have 6 loaners that are available for those that need to use them, and I'm at most (if not all) Appleseeds in the Northeast.

[Simballo]

Remember you'll have to buy ammo for those rifles.

I think the perfect learning rifle is the LTR.

Find a used or WalMart 10/22. Add Tech sights, swivels, extended mag release, and an auto bolt release.

You've got a great 22 rifle that will last for years, if not for your life.

CCI mini mag ammo from MidwayUSA, $25 for 500.

You've a great rifle that shoots inexpensive ammo. You can afford to shoot 10,000 rounds ~ $500.

In addition, there's little to no recoil so you're less likely to develop a flinch    that you'll have to loose to become a rifleman.

I'm glad I started with a LTR rather than an M1 or an M1A. I'm still working with the LTR. I now have an AR-15 and ordered a M1A. I'm sure what I learn on the LTR will transfer directly to the other rifles.

LTR's for the poor folk NOT. LTR's for everyone! 

[EJ]

Thanks guys.

Well, obviously if I could afford both, I would have both.( or more...  ) Present personal circumstances dictate otherwise unfortunately.

My thought was to find a single platform that would allow me to start training asap. w/o needing to spend a small fortune on ammo and upgrading/replacing parts.

I would also rather not be stuck with just a .22 should a serious situation develop.

Choices, choices, choices.... Theres always some trade-off.


:edit: Excuse me if this was the wrong forum to post in; mod's feel free to move. 

[Simballo]

The last 30-06 I bought this spring was $70 for 200 rounds.

I think you could get a Ruger 10/22 for about $170 at Walmart. I bought a stainless 10/22 there for $229 this spring.

Add a set of tech sights and you're at about $230. Forget the other goodies for now.

1000 rounds of CCI 22 lr would be about $50.

For $280 you'll have a rifle, ammo, and 1000 rounds of practice.

That same $280 would buy you only 800 rounds of 30-06 practice and you'll still have to buy the M1!

And you'll have a 10/22 left to keep or sell to another beginner.

My decision was to gain experience on the 10/22 and transfer it to the Ar-15 and M1A.

When I decided to learn to ride a motorcycle I didn't buy a Suzuki Hayabusa or a Honda Goldwing. I learned on a 250cc Honda Rebel. Then moved to a 650cc. I've ridden the Goldwing, but it's too much for me. As for the Hayabusa, I'm still too young to die.

If you really think the UN is coming for you tomorrow, then why settle for the M1, why not buy the M1A now? Heck you really should have the 50 BMG. Otherwise learn the basics on a LTR and move on to the M! or M1A.

This is just my opinion. Opinions are like rear ends, everybody has one and most of us would be better off not showing them in public.

[Nickle]

I think you could get a Ruger 10/22 for about $170 at Walmart. I bought a stainless 10/22 there for $229 this spring.

$182 and change this fall. 22" barrel version was $232 (I bought one). The store was Bennington, VT, and that isn't all that far from you, EJ. (Just in case there isn't one that sells rifles near you, which I hear there isn't.)

[Simballo]

Jerk's Sporting Goods had one on sale yesterday for $168.

Edit: The website has changed the familar nickname for Richard (kcid if you spell it backwards) to Jerk

Look around to see what you can find. I prefer new guns because I know what they've been through, but you may find some bargins in the used arena.

You might even post a Wanted ad in the Deals and Steals section of this forum, if this is permitted.

[EJ]

If you really think the UN is coming for you tomorrow, then why settle for the M1, why not buy the M1A now? Heck you really should have the 50 BMG. Otherwise learn the basics on a LTR and move on to the M! or M1A.

LOL!

No, I don't think, ( and I pray it doesn't) a SHTF situation, happening anytime soon, is probable; but anything is possible.

I would much rather have as much info. & opinions before I make a purchase, rather than after; and in most aspects of life I prefer preventative measures over reactionary.

I do tend to be overly analytical at times too. 

[SGTCap]

Buy what you can afford to feed.  In this case its a LTR.  I rather have an LTR I can shoot a couple times a month than an M1 I can shoot a couple times a year.  

[funfaler]

In the 'free advise is worth what you pay for it" department.

I would much rather have an LTR, with lots of shooting experience and quality skills than a larger cal rifle that I can not shoot as much.  The M1 will put you out of the LTR business, however an LTR will get you into the shooting business sooner and better, and still leave some funds available for a center fire rifle, albeit lesser than an M1.

If you really "need" a serious rifle, and you have the skills of a rifleman, those who have extras will get one in your hands, I know I would (as a matter of fact, how far are you from Louisville, KY? 

My 2c...LTR and shooting a bunch now.....save a few months more for a center fire rifle.  Or sell a kidney and get both

[EJ]

Or sell a kidney and get both

That isn't a viable option is it?  Currently in southern N.H. btw



Thank you gentlemen. LTR it is.

[funfaler]

Be sure to contact Nickle before you purchase, he is your Regional LTR expert and will lead you down the better path for getting it set up.

Good luck and no one said it had to be your kidney

[wildman]

I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

[EJ]

Good luck and no one said it had to be your kidney

Thanks. Yeah, someone else's would be a better choice; unfortunately not many are willing to oblige such a request. 

I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

Is that a mess-with-the-noob question? 

Liberty Training Rifle if not. 

[Nickle]

I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

Is that a mess-with-the-noob question? 

Liberty Training Rifle if not. 

Nah, wildman is an old rifle shooter for the most part. He likes his Springfields, and I don't mean M1A's. I swear he'd call an M1 a "new fangled contraption".

EJ, the ones I built are pretty well discussed in the LTR thread already. I did the hammers and bolt release modifications myself, but I would suggest getting the Volquartsen hammer/bolt release set and install it yourself. Dwarven1 is near you, and he's done some of the mods already (I did the trigger/bolt release, he did the rest) on his 10/22's. I'd wager he would be glad to help you.

[didactic]

Some thoughts to add:

Depending on the deal you get on a base .22 rifle, and whether you're willing to consider a used gun, and how many of the add-ons you feel are truly necessary, you'll probably spend somewhere between $200 and $400 for an LTR.  Ammo will run $14 to $30 per 500, so lots of practice shouldn't be prohibitively expensive.

If the manure happens to collide with the ventilating equipment during that interim time when you have an LTR and have developed some skill, but haven't yet saved up enough for a "real" battle rifle, remember the history of the "Liberator" pistol.  That was a REALLY CHEAP (Uncle Sugar paid less than $2 per copy) stamped sheet metal .45acp single shot pistol, that used a pencil or stick for an extractor.  The idea was to drop them to French resistance fighters, I don't know whether that really happened on any scale or not, so they could use them against solo or otherwise-distracted Nazi occupation troops, and thereby equip themselves with battle rifles. 

Well, in such an unhappy circumstance, I'd expect you could use a .22 rifle at least as well in that role, if no accommodating and better-equipped friend or neighbor came through for you.

And if that doesn't happen, then you've got a really superior initial training rifle at a fairly affordable cost.  Garands or even SKS's aren't likely to get any cheaper, but there are so many around that they will continue to be available at SOME price.

[EJ]

I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

Is that a mess-with-the-noob question? 

Liberty Training Rifle if not. 

Nah, wildman is an old rifle shooter for the most part. He likes his Springfields, and I don't mean M1A's. I swear he'd call an M1 a "new fangled contraption".

EJ, the ones I built are pretty well discussed in the LTR thread already. I did the hammers and bolt release modifications myself, but I would suggest getting the Volquartsen hammer/bolt release set and install it yourself. Dwarven1 is near you, and he's done some of the mods already (I did the trigger/bolt release, he did the rest) on his 10/22's. I'd wager he would be glad to help you.

IC, thanks; that explains that. 

I've read some of the LTR thread and am sure I could do most of the mods myself. You can be sure I'll post if I run into any difficulties. 

I'm planning on watching the local used market; we have a few shops up here. 

I currently have a SIG P245 so I do have some means of self-protection; and from what I've read so far, with proper shot placement, even a .22 can be a very effective tool.

[SGTCap]

Your right.  Never underestimate what a skilled man a 22 can do.

[socalserf]

I love the LTR concept. But, I would feel naked with out an MBR.
Dry fire practice is FREE. Use it!
Also, the price of a CMP Garand will never be cheaper, this rifle is easly worth twice the price and I think will be soon. A Garand runs as is, no modifications needed. The price of ammo? Yeah, dude, total bummer.
If you don't live in an area prone to riot unrest an LTR is nice as your only rifle.
Don't mind me -I need to move to Wyoming.

Serf

[Nickle]

I'm planning on watching the local used market; we have a few shops up here. 

I forgot to mention that John's VT Gun Shop (Morrisville, VT) is a supporter of the program, and should be able to get a Ruger for you. His prices are reasonable, he does gun shows, and he should be at the White River Junction show in February (same dates as Diprete's West Lebanon show). John's knows EXACTLY what an LTR is, they have one hanging on the wall in the shop (I built it for them, part of the deal when they donated 3 10/22's to the program).

[Spatulaman]

 At the risk of muddying the waters a bit more, you should consider the ubiquitous No.4Mk1 Enfield. Currently available for about $130 (not including transfer/ICS/shipping) from J&G sales, Century Arms and others. Ammo is currently available for 15-22 cents/rd.
10 rds on board, fast to reload with strippers, already has aperature sights (you may need to spend an extra $25 for an adjustable rear [ preferably milled] rear sight), has swivels and can easily use a Ching or CW sling. The last one I bought, I paid $75 dollars for, a pristine Longbranch. My son paid $125 for a gorgeous Savage.
  All of that's to say that for under $300 you can have a serious MBR AND 1000 rds or so of ball ammo. ANY 22 can be pressed into service as a trainer, the requirements for an MBR are a bit more demanding....

[EJ]

If you don't live in an area prone to riot unrest an LTR is nice as your only rifle.
Don't mind me -I need to move to Wyoming.

I live in NH; it seems BG's don't care to commit as many crimes when there is just as good a chance that their intended victim may be better armed than they are.   

I don't think our population is large enough to present a dangerous civil unrest situation; ( The MA******s on the other hand....  ) but I recently joined the New Hampshire State Guard Study Group, and we are exploring the viability of forming an all volunteer group to help address such situations.

Any citizens of NH, or supporters in general, feel free to PM me for more info.

I'm planning on watching the local used market; we have a few shops up here. 

I forgot to mention that John's VT Gun Shop (Morrisville, VT) is a supporter of the program, and should be able to get a Ruger for you.

Thank you sir. 

If I need to, I can purchase a new Ruger from a local dealer; ( as a bonus we have no sales tax.  )

At the risk of muddying the waters a bit more, you should consider the ubiquitous No.4Mk1 Enfield. Currently available for about $130 (not including transfer/ICS/shipping) from J&G sales, Century Arms and others. Ammo is currently available for 15-22 cents/rd.
10 rds on board, fast to reload with strippers, already has aperature sights (you may need to spend an extra $25 for an adjustable rear [ preferably milled] rear sight), has swivels and can easily use a Ching or CW sling. The last one I bought, I paid $75 dollars for, a pristine Longbranch. My son paid $125 for a gorgeous Savage.
  All of that's to say that for under $300 you can have a serious MBR AND 1000 rds or so of ball ammo. ANY 22 can be pressed into service as a trainer, the requirements for an MBR are a bit more demanding....

Sounds interesting...

Anyone care to chime in on this suggestion?




BTW, I should  prolly mention I havn't fired a rifle since I was 14. ( and I'm 37 now. ) 

[AZRedhawk44]

EJ:

I've not owned an Enfield, but I have shot a couple of 'em.  The stock is a two-piece job kinda like a Winchester 94.  They aren't as stable unless you get a PRISTINE rifle that has not seen any action.

You aren't getting an Enfield in pristine condition for $130.  Ain't gonna happen.  Most of the ones I've seen on the surplus circuit have very wobbly stocks.

Mausers and Mosins, on the other hand, have much nicer stocks from a stability and consistency perspective.  Mausers are getting scarce though and run around $250 on up nowadays.  Mosins are still dirt cheap though.

The Mosin's 7.62x54R cartridge has a similar flight plan to the 8mm, .308, .30-06 and .223 cartridge.  Very similar drop compensation at 200-500 yards.

The .303 from the Enfield, on the other hand, flies a bit more like the 7.62x39 and the .30-30.  Drops more rapidly than the above mentioned cartridges.  Doesn't mean you can't shoot it long range; just means that it's a bit harder.

Do you want to end up with an M1A or a Garand?  Then get a cartridge that flies similar.  At least that's my opinion.  An LTR to learn the basics, then a Mosin to use if you really need it; that will get you farther as a newbie than a Garand right off the bat.  Get the Garand in six months.

[Wade]

Looking in gun safe  03a3 ,Krag, cetme, enfield .303 M-1 garand ,savage fp 10,, lever action .22 ,shotgun ,sks's, pistols etc etc ,,,,

#^$$%%$  No RUGER 10/22 LTR     

point is it is the very next rifle on my list of guns to buy probably before  I even buy more ammo.

imho every one needs an LTR !
advise free desposable  get an LTR  go to an appleseed  look at other rifles try other rifles .

Wade

[Francis Marion]

I recommend the #4 Mk1 Enfield highly.  The price of ammo is still good-old-days cheap, half to a third the price of M80 ball.  Roger the merit of the rotating click-adjustable aperture sight, as opposed to the sprung pawl-adjustable sight.  The rotating click type gives you more ability to precisely dial in elevation, whereas the sprung pawl has far more coarse adjustment.  The rotating clicker type is milled, the pawl type is stamped sheetmetal. 
All cheap .303 surplus is surely corrosive, but Enfields are very easy to clean. 
Shop around until you find a rifle that has five-groove rifling, not two-groove.  Select for barrel condition; what you're looking for is a rifle that was re-barrelled and then stored.  If of UK origin, look for the stamped letters "FTR" on the receiver, which means "Factory Thorough Repair".  This means they took an old warhorse and likely replaced the barrel and then stored the weapon.  I found a beautiful walnut-stocked FTR for $99 years ago; barrel full of cosmoline and in perfect condition.  If the barrel's not pristine, keep shopping till you find one.  Don't worry about headspace, that's easily adjustable, if needed at all, with a $15 bolt head. 
Years ago as kids, sitting on a desert ridge top with various rifles over the years, we used to shoot at a particular hillside far away whose range, we experimentally determined with military rifles, was 1000 meters.  We selected a target on that distant ridge and fired on it with various arms from K98s to Enfields, SKS etc.  Well, the #4 Enfield had no trouble at all lobbing rounds into a fairly tidy inpact area; the target was a lone creosote bush, and it wasn't difficult to worry that bush with the #4. 
I'd place the .303 nearer to the 30-06 than to the 7.62x39, it's still a hard-hitting rifle round.
You're getting ten different suggestions here, but I want to commend you for your resolution to obtain a rifle and learn how to properly shoot it, whatever you settle on.   

[smle]

My backup MBR is an #4MK2 with a Parker-Hale recevier sight. The gun is almost as old as I am. And I'll put it up against most any other rifle. The only draw back of an enfield is that it likes to stretch cases. Got to watch that if you're reloading.
My LTR is an Chinese 22 bolt action with a five round mags. Shoot what you've got.
smle

[Spatulaman]

EJ:

I've not owned an Enfield, but I have shot a couple of 'em.  The stock is a two-piece job kinda like a Winchester 94.  They aren't as stable unless you get a PRISTINE rifle that has not seen any action.

You aren't getting an Enfield in pristine condition for $130.  Ain't gonna happen.  Most of the ones I've seen on the surplus circuit have very wobbly stocks.

Mausers and Mosins, on the other hand, have much nicer stocks from a stability and consistency perspective.  Mausers are getting scarce though and run around $250 on up nowadays.  Mosins are still dirt cheap though.

The Mosin's 7.62x54R cartridge has a similar flight plan to the 8mm, .308, .30-06 and .223 cartridge.  Very similar drop compensation at 200-500 yards.

The .303 from the Enfield, on the other hand, flies a bit more like the 7.62x39 and the .30-30.  Drops more rapidly than the above mentioned cartridges.  Doesn't mean you can't shoot it long range; just means that it's a bit harder.

Do you want to end up with an M1A or a Garand?  Then get a cartridge that flies similar.  At least that's my opinion.  An LTR to learn the basics, then a Mosin to use if you really need it; that will get you farther as a newbie than a Garand right off the bat.  Get the Garand in six months.

  Ummm, No. The Enfield 2-piece stock uses a through-bolt which can be tightened through the buttplate trap. If necessary, extra washers can be installed to take up any slack. In addition, the No 4's were available with 3 different length buttstocks to fit different sized Tommies (and people think the AR is the 1st "modular" rifle...) The Win. 94 uses upper and lower tangsand is a much weaker system, as well as being more difficult to bed correctly.
  The .303 is the ballistic brother to the .30 US (.30/40 Krag round) and much more effective at range than either of the 2 calibers you mentioned. 174 grs. at 2500 is rifle territory, not carbine. Most domestic commercial ammo is loaded light, but the same is true of 8x57, 7x57, 6.5x55, etc. etc. The .303 was THE cartridge for long range target work- and by long range I'm talking about Wimbledon 1000, 1100 and 1200 yards. In addition, in the Mk 7 loading, the bullet is nose-light, making it unstable on impact and thus initiating a much faster yaw cycle.
  Finally, even though the Mosin is inexpensive, it has some features which make it less than a 1st pick battle rifle. First and foremost, it is awkward to manipulate. The straight bolt handle is difficult to operate rapidly. The bolt reach is not conducive to maintaining NPOA or operating speed. For all intents and purposes, it has no safety. It carries open sights, with no inexpensive way to mount a receiver sight. If one elects to mount a telescope, any resemblance to a cheek weld is lost in getting behind the light pencil. All of these deficiencies can be overcome with determination and hard work, but why set yourself an extra pack of problems?
  BUT, having said all of that, remember what they say..."What's the first rule in a gunfight?"
"Have a gun." The Mosin meets that criteria, I just think that there are much better choices available for not much more money. Heck, SARCO sells M48/M48A Mausers for right at $100. Lots of choices available to you, but if I were on a really tight budget, I'd be prowling the gunshows and the internet for a decent No 4 Mk 1. In my not-so-humble opinion, it is the best of the volksgewehrs....

[Paul Shanks]

I have to inject a question or two and a few comments here.

LTR= liberty TRAINING rifle
is there a LR?  if so why would one possibly get the trainer before they had the real thing and was competent with that?  The way It's been explained to me is that the LTR is for weekend training session at home.  I have never ever seen anyone show up to any of the tactical rifle, sniper, pistol, etc. classes I've been to with a 22 training rifle.  Why in heavens name would you PAY for a class to learn how to use a rifle and show up with a 22?  You are there to learn how to operate a real rifle not a smallbore target gun.    No matter how hard you try, you cannot learn the manual of operation for an M1 Garand by shooting a 10/22.  Save the training rifle for home practice

If you have to choose between a rifle that can kill a man at 500 yards or a target rifle that cant do it at 100 yards then by all means, get the mans rifle.  Fred has been beating this into our heads for at least a decade.  He prefers the M14, but the garand is an excellent choice even today.

If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

No matter what anyone here tells you a 22 is not a substitute for a M1 garand.  It cannot even in the hands of an expert kill anything at 500 yards or even 400 yards.  If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

Now please correct me If i'm wrong on any of the following points-

A rifleman can hit (and presumably kill) men consistently at out to 500 yards
the reason for hitting men at 500 yards is to defend the country and our freedoms
every rifleman should be able to do that when called upon with a rifle and ammo provided by him
applesed program is to train RIFLEMEN (and not smallbore champions)
the LTR is a good refresher tool to maintain the abilities of a rifleman
the LTR cannot perform the tasks required of it by a rifleman and therefore is not a rifle
a Rifleman without a rifle is a cook
therefore... LTR=SPATULA


Listen to Fred and listen to Nickle, GET A RIFLE not a trainer.

[Spatulaman]

 Careful there, Paul, you're about to step into the hole I discovered with my very first posting. Look in the AARs for the Puryear TN thread to see my comments re. .22LRs.

As a tangential issue to the whole CF/RF debate, and the question of how much ammo to have on hand, one of my questions has been, "How much can you carry?" 10,000 rds of 7.62 would be really nice- unless you've got to pick it up in your two hands and run with it.

  And I must take umbrage with the cavalier way in which you've appropriated my moniker to make your point! (An avatar I chose, BTW, after shooting a 208 at the afore-mentioned AS. Fred never did tell me how he liked his eggs....)

[Francis Marion]

The purpose of the LTR is to teach you to shoot, not replace, a LR.  Buying an LTR first simply means that the shooter can expend little money and obtain tens of thousands of rounds of practice.  Practicing sight alignment, breathing, trigger pull, positions.   The discipline of shooting can be learned with either rifle, and they are parallel paths toward the same objective of riflery.  I'm less interested in which rifle is finally selected as I am delighted that a fellow wants to learn how to shoot who formerly did not.  For the purpose of learning to shoot, both rifles work.  They're different tools with different physical and economic implications. 
The M1 Garand is a super deal today, from the CMP, as is its ammo.  Pick up the Garand, you can always dry fire plenty, as everybody should regardless of how much ammo they can afford.  The military spends days dry firing before anybody head to the range to shoot live ammo.
Get an LTR, and you'll be able to shoot thousands of rounds at little cost.
You're not going to lose with either rifle.