for a 1:9 in .223, what grain/bullet am I looking for?

[ax238]

Here is a open door for all of you .223/556 guys.  I am purchasing my first .223 spitting rifle.

I want bullets for 1. big cats

2. coyotes

3. prowlers in the form of unauthorized people in my home (potential Castle Doctrine proponents)

4. AQT shooting as well.
the barrel is a 1:9 twist. bulled tip. gas piston setup.

[Old Dog]

I would shoot 55 grn. bullets for paper (fmj or soft points) or coyotes (soft points).  Heavier bullets might be okay but probably cost more.  The heavier bullets are attempts to make the cartridge do something it was not originally designed to do.  I haven't shot any of them so can't make a recommendation there

As far as "big" cats go, what's a big cat?  I've never shot a bob cat or a cougar but for their size there's nothing harder to kill quickly than a feral house cat.  Very few have dropped at the shot, never see them again but most manage to get out of the ambush zone and die somewhere else.  Don't know if the "big" cats are as tough or not.  I'd hesitate to hunt a cougar with a .223 unless I was in a tree stand with a large capacity magazine (unless your good enough to get a brain/spine shot).

.

[Oohrah]

I also just got a new Bushy with a 1 in 9 barrel.   I'll take M1A4ME's
suggestion and start out with the 55 gr.   Various friends tell me they
will handle up to 69-70 gr. but each rifle will have it's own personality
to what it favors.   I'm still waiting for a back ordered Bushnell laser
bore sight that was cheaper than an offset bracket that must be used
with the spud type that doesn't work due to height of the sights over
the bore.   The only one that I found for the offset is B Square.
   Good choice on the piston system.   If my Bushy were to be my one
and only primary, I would spend the extra money and go that direction.
The big cats I would go for a different caliber than .223.   Before hounds
were outlawed here, heavy handgun calibers, and 30 rifles and up were
the more common.   Two school of thoughts on the coyote and smaller cats
are  1.   Explosive to where penetrate and explosive internal damage without
an exit or   2.  Non expanding with through and through bullet path.   If
saving the fur is at issue, either works, but differing opinion of the two
choices.
   I live in cat country (large and small cats).  Seldom seen hunting them,
and seem to pop up when the rifle is not close.   For the most part, night
hunters here, and lay up during the day.   Coyotes not particular hard to kill
and either day or night wanders.
   The two legged stuff, penetrate and explosive would be my choice, leaving
the FMJ for paper.   There are no rules, other than to win for home defense.
Close up over penetration could make walls and the otherside at risk.
Expanders definately give off  more shocking and bullet energy at body mass
hits.

[Bravo]

My 16" 1:9 runs 69 grain Sierra Match Kings wonderfully. Extremely accurate. I haven't tried anything heavier, 'cause my 'smith (the guy that built that AR) said that heavier was highly debatable.

My "go to" ammo is Hornady TAP, 55 grainers. Expansion is.... explosive.

Around here, the most common caliber for shooting mountain lions is (wait for it) 9mm Parabellum. The dogs tree / corner the cat, and the "hunter" shoots it. 9 is fine for cats, they're thin skinned.

That having been said, if I were interested in saving my neck (i.e. walking around with a carbine in mountain lion country) I'd run something a touch heavier than the 55 grain TAP..... I've got the TAP technical data pack somewhere around here - IIRC the 60 grainers go in a touch deeper before exploding, and then likewise the heavy.

Of course, after hiking all over mountain lion country for years, I can honestly say that you're much more likely to see tracks than you are cats. That's why they're hunted with dogs - if you don't have dogs, you won't ever see one.

[Sharkman]

AR15.com Ammo Oracle had a long article on 5.56 ammo, well worth reading. If memory serves me correctly 55 gr. should serve you well

[Nickle]

I concur with Bravo, and will add that for deer or other larger animals, like cougars, I'd go for a bullet in the 62 to 70 grain range.

So, 69 gr Sierra match bullets for precision work, 55 TAP for protection (though the 69's will also work), 62 gr military type for target shooting, and 62 to 70 gr softpoints for game.

[o0synge0o]

My 16" 1:9 runs 69 grain Sierra Match Kings wonderfully. Extremely accurate. I haven't tried anything heavier, 'cause my 'smith (the guy that built that AR) said that heavier was highly debatable.

My "go to" ammo is Hornady TAP, 55 grainers. Expansion is.... explosive.

Around here, the most common caliber for shooting mountain lions is (wait for it) 9mm Parabellum. The dogs tree / corner the cat, and the "hunter" shoots it. 9 is fine for cats, they're thin skinned.

That having been said, if I were interested in saving my neck (i.e. walking around with a carbine in mountain lion country) I'd run something a touch heavier than the 55 grain TAP..... I've got the TAP technical data pack somewhere around here - IIRC the 60 grainers go in a touch deeper before exploding, and then likewise the heavy.

Of course, after hiking all over mountain lion country for years, I can honestly say that you're much more likely to see tracks than you are cats. That's why they're hunted with dogs - if you don't have dogs, you won't ever see one.

The 1/9 twist has some potential to still do well even with the bullet weights into the 70's, seems there has been mixed results.  Grab a box or two and give them a shot.  I think just based on this question coming up I'll grab a couple boxes of the most common weights across the range and do some 10rd groups out of my Bushmaster 16" 1/9 to see what I get(with pics of course)

That being said, the 110gr .308 TAP is said to perform similarly(though slightly improved performance) to the 77gr .223 in regards to wound channel characteristics, and I have heard two different reports where a coyote was taken with the 110gr .308 TAP just behind the shoulder and there was no exit.  So, though I'm no hunter or expert on any level, I would imagine that if your barrel will deal with the 77gr nicely, then it should do well for your purposes.  I can't say that I would feel inadequite with the lighter TAP loads, soft points, or one of the heavier retail hunting loads either though.

Haha, I think the one that is hanging on the wall of our place in New Harmony, UT may have had some sort of mental deficiency Bravo.  My grandfather walked out of the house one fall morning only to find that about 20' away was a good size cougar(lol, relatively speaking as I don't know much about them, but seems like it's big enough that I'd have wanted to stumble upon it on a bad day, gotta be atleast 6' from tip of nose to rump) completely oblivious to his presence and rolling around in the garden like a house cat might do.  He was quick to step back inside the house, grab the shotgun, and put it down.

Wandering around that area I've always been told that if you actually see one, that you have nothing to worry about as they aren't likely to square off against you.  Supposedly if one's going to attack you, it'll come from behind and you'll never see it anyways, which seems to correspond with the only cougar attacks that I can recall reading or hearing in the news, IE: joggers taken from behind on seperate occasions, one survived with some deep lacerations I think, and the other had the classic bite to the back of the neck.

I carry my 1911 when I'm wandering around up there.  17rds of 230gr .45 Ranger atleast gives me some option and peace of mind.


It's possible that I could be ENTIRELY wrong, but that's my $0.02, which, due to inflation is worthless anyways  

[Old Dog]

The big cats must be pushovers.  A 9mm??  I remember Elmer Keith writing that in his day the 9mm FMJ rounds didn't reliably put down jack rabbits.  

That's what I carry (up home) in the woods, my .45 ACP.

The shot gun comment reminded me of someone at home who has put down a couple of bob cats with one shot from a 12 ga. with 7&1/2's loaded for grouse/turkeys.  He said they don't even get up.  Don't know the distance though, the cats didn't know he was there and were attempting to sneak out of the area before the bird dogs stumbled on to them.

I'd let the size of the deer determine what caliber rifle (and bullet) I'd use.  A big white tail around home will easily go over 200 lbs., after field dressing.  I've seen 165 grn. 308's not go all the way through (spine shot - the bullet did a 180 and turned hard right, but the deer dropped where he stood).  Big bones take big bullets to break'em.

I'd also check out a Ciener .22 conversion kit for your AQT use.  I have one for mine and it's a tack driver, same 1 in 9 twist.  I just need to get me a couple of those black dog 30 rnd. magazines to try out in it.

Have a good one.

[Santander]

ax238,
Consider what M1A4ME just posted about the Ciener kit. For your AQT work and just general plinking, they work great and they save your high energy ammo for when you need it. Now, one of the things that you need to consider is chrome vs stainless barrel. Many here will say "only chrome for me". There's pro's and con's to each. Frankly, I don't have a preference. I kinda like the idea of chrome as it is requires less maintenance among other things. However, on the range shooting 22 LR with a Ciener kit out of several different rifles, I am finding that the stainless barrels are shooting the 22lr much more consistently (read: accurately) than the chrome.  Just something to consider.

Oh, if you do go the Ciener kit route, you might want to consider one more thing. What I did (and it is working out GREAT) was get a flat top AR and I got a 2nd carry-handle/rear-sight. I set my BSZ with my carry handle which I intend to use when shooting .223. Then, once the front sight is where it needs to be and my BSZ is locked down on my rear aperture, I swap out carry handles and set the elevation of the rear sight so that POI=POA with 22lr (Ciener kit) at 25 yards/meters.  Now whenever I switch to my Ciener kit, I just swap carry handles and I'm good to go. Both have been holding zero perfectly fine.

Tony

[Bravo]

Anything over 69 grains gets into a matter of length. Some of the shorter heavies will stabilize, some of the longer ones flatly won't. After all, stabilization is a matter of length, not weight. The AMAX for instance, doesn't like the 1:9, but some others work fine. And of course it's velocity dependent too - and I'm not known for 'loading light' LOL!

But the 110 VMAX in 308 is a whole 'nuther animal completely! It's difficult for me to write how impressive the "30 caliber launched grenade" is. Everyone knows how badgers are built like little tanks - all muscle in the flanks and on the back. Not much on the belly though, that's their soft point. The 110 VMAX entered the badger, exploded, ruptured the belly, and the force threw it in the air approximately 5 feet.

The TAP data package goes into that (there are pros and cons) but I wouldn't compare the "30 caliber launched grenade" to the 77 grainers. If I get some time today, I'll look up the data (I scanned in my copy) and see if I can't post the pertinents.

FWIW, one of my mentors runs the 110 VMAX as his "social application" round. The way he looks at it, gang members and such are used to seeing eachother with 9mm holes - they pick up their compatriot, and take him to the hospital, where usually he lives. His take is that the first perp nailed squarely with the 110 VMAX will essentially erupt - after that, it'll be easy to see who really is in the fight and who's just along for the ride.

The 'no exit' sounds completely right. My problem with the 110 is that it has insufficient penetration (GREAT thin-skinned round!) for some applications. Therefore I keep some as specialty ammo, but wouldn't use them as a general purpose round. FWIW, I've picked the Hornady SST as my general purpose bullet.

When I trekked mountain lion areas frequently, I was carrying a 44SPL with some of my +P loads. While completely (IMO) sufficient for mountain lions (which I never got a shot at) I doubt their utility on bears. My take is that if you've got bears covered, anything else is gravy. And I have seen bears - and wouldn't want something like a 1911 for them.

The lions around where you're talking - at least not far from New Harmony - get huge. The biggest I've seen had the back come up almost to my belt line. Dunno what it weighed, but it was a big 'ol puddy tat!

But yeah, from what I understand, they're pushovers. One of the fellows I work with runs a snare line for fur bearers. Well, he came in with some pics that were outstanding! Seems he caught a mountain lion instead ;-) The joker actually stood a few feet away and poked it with a stick to get good close pics of it snarling and such. Him and his partner went back, got a choke line, and put the puddy tat to sleep until they got the foot out. Me? You couldn't talk me into grabbing a mountain lions foot and pulling it out of a snare, asleep, awake, or anything but proven dead.

[ken grant]

 I love my Ciener kit for shooting my AR's but I only bought the 10 rd. Ciener mags.
In looking at pics of the Ciener 30 rd. mags, they seem too long for shooting the AQT.
Same with the Black Dog mags even their 10 rd. mags as they are just blocked off longer ones.

[Snake45]

Oh, if you do go the Ciener kit route, you might want to consider one more thing. What I did (and it is working out GREAT) was get a flat top AR and I got a 2nd carry-handle/rear-sight. I set my BSZ with my carry handle which I intend to use when shooting .223. Then, once the front sight is where it needs to be and my BSZ is locked down on my rear aperture, I swap out carry handles and set the elevation of the rear sight so that POI=POA with 22lr (Ciener kit) at 25 yards/meters.  Now whenever I switch to my Ciener kit, I just swap carry handles and I'm good to go. Both have been holding zero perfectly fine.

Absolutely. Those cheap Chinese carry handle/sights are available as cheap as $25, and they work just fine for a second set of sights for .22 use.

[Old Dog]

Yeah, I forgot to mention the aiming point difference with the ceiner kit.  

On my rifle there is exactly a 3" difference at 25 meters.  .22 LR bullets tear up the middle square while I'm aiming at the top square.  

Some folks report no difference in POA/POI between .223 and .22 LR ammo in their rifles (lucky dogs! ) but my rifle is different.  Try yours and see what it does so you know what route to take on the sights.

I agree with Bravo on most things.  Anything big enough to hurt me needs to stay far enough away from me that I don't feel the need to make sure it can't hurt me.  If I lived out west (where the grizzlies are) I probably wouldn't feel the .45 is good protection.  All the black bears I've seen to far (even the one I followed across the lake in my boat - got some great pictures by the way) seemed more intersted in putting distance between me and them but you never know.

[ken grant]

 I have shot the Ciener kit in two of my rifles at 25M and the elevation was the same as 5.56 but they both shot about 4-5 MOA to the right.
This was with a Colt SP1 with a 1-12 twist and a Bushmaster Carbine with a 1-9 twist.

[o0synge0o]

All I have right now is two .45's, and the .223 Bushy, well, and the LTR(just sold my other AR).  Any family that happened to be up that weekend would be a little estranged by me hauling my AR anywhere/everywhere I wandered, and I figure the 1911 is better than scrambling for a rock or stick if I come across something  That being said, if a bear has it in his mind to try to eat me, I think he's going to recieve 17 well aimed hollow points and either winged by a flying 1911(figure it's just as good as a boomerang at that point), or bludgeoned by it if he still has it in his mind to get frisky.    Any black bears my uncle has run into in various hunting endeavours over the years have headed the other way without any hint of confrontation, but a year or two ago up along the coast of Alaska they ran into a Grizzly just into the tree-line while scouting with a guide.  After the first moments of recognition where both parties(the humans, and the bear) sort of startled each other and just looked at each other and blinked for a second, the guide, who was carrying a S&W 500 "Just incase they happened upon a bear", panicked and hauled balls back the way they came without a single word to either uncle.  The bear gave a lazy, half hearted charge, but never left the tree-line and let them be.

The bullet info is good stuff, I'm not a reloader yet(maybe next year) and don't have any .30 yet(next years plans too, M1 and M14 before '09).  How similar are the 110gr VMAX and the round that they use in the TAP loading?  There was some reference a bit ago on another forum that the .223 bullets used in the TAP loads were similar to bullets available as components, but differed slightly and the performance of the commercially available component bullet when hand loaded to similar specs as the TAP hadn't been formally tested/compared yet.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, now that I think of it, so if we're straying too far off topic let me know and I'll start a new one.

[Snake45]

In one of my 1:12 barrels, .22LR printed 2-3 inches low and an inch or two right at 25. You never know what YOURS will do until you shoot it. Fortunately, this is FUN.

[Bravo]

The Hornady bullets for reloading are the exact same bullets used in the TAP ammo. Whether they're AMAX or VMAX depends on the load offered..... if you look at the bullet weight and caliber, that'll tell you if you are wanting AMAX or VMAX bullets ;-)

From the Hornady TAP technical data package:

223 data from Bushmaster AR-15 with 16" barrel 1:9 twist
308 data from Steyr SSG with 20" barrel 1:12 twist

55 gr 223 / 60 gr 223 / 75 gr 223 / 110 gr 308 / 155 gr 308 / 168 gr 308

total penetration: 8" / 10" / 13.63" / 10.5" / 14.5" / 18"

depth to max cavity: 2.38" / 2.75" / 6.25" / 3.38" / 4.38" / 6"

max temporary cavity: 4.25" / 3.68" / 5.38" / 7.50" / 8" / 7.5"

percent fragmentation: 75% / 66% / 72% / 82% / 33% / 38%

maximum performance range: 300 yds / 275 yds / 200 yds / (not given for 308)

There is some other interesting data concerning barrier penetration - including body armor - and how the bullet reacts in gelatin after going through those barriers.

The pictures of the 7.50" temporary cavity with 82% fragmentation explain why I call it a grenade LOL!

Hope that helps!

[ax238]

I will be moving out to Montana by 09'.  I have family out there and I have visited a bit.  Horseback riding, hunting etc. in areas that are Griz and Lion friendly make me nervous.  Like M1A4ME said, I want to keep them far away.

Ax

[Old Dog]

You know, I really haven't shot much .223 ammo though my CAR.  I've shot a fair amount (of reloads) through my M700 VS and a few through my Mini14.

M700 first.  I used it for paper and groundhogs.  I used the lighter 45 grn. bullets for the previously mentioned (by others) explosive expansion.  With the lighter bullets you get a higher velocity, greater expansion and that's fine on the small varmints.  If you have a slower twist barrel you can even buy thin jacketed bullets that offer even more violent expansion (these tend to self destruct in mid flight when fired through the faster twist barrels.  It's what reloading is all about.  Picking a combination of powder and bullet weight/design to do "special" jobs.  Never shot anything bigger than a groundhog.

Mini14.  Paper and empty cans only.  Mix if bullet weights, mostly 50 or 55 grn. with the regular jacket thickness (due to the aforementioned barrel twist rate resulting in high rpm/centrifugal force causing the thin jacketed bullets to fly to pieces between the barrel and the target - not every round, but every so often).  Since I never saw the .223 as anything more than a souped up .222 Rem. (about 150 fps more velocity) I never considered the heavier 60 grn. (??) bullets available at that time.

I'd say you might look around on the internet for the guys selling surplus 55 and 62 grn. fmj bullets if you're going to reload.

http://www.rvow.com/m855_pulled_bullets.htm

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Reloading/R022.9.htm

[Frenchie]

I have a 1:9 AR and find the M855 62 gr to work just fine (that's the green tip Lake City military load).  I load 60 gr Hornady TAP for home defense/ real use (a .223 will penetrate less in walls than a 9x19 as it breaks up due to velocity, I'm told).  The TAP is very accurate in my gun. 60-62 seems to be the sweet spot for my gun, with 55gr working ok too.  I haven't gone heavier, but I've heard 69/70gr is topping out the 1:9...go 1:7 if you want to go heavy.

Over in the sandbox, they are moving to 77 grain in 1:7s.

As for carrying a 1911 in big bear country, I've heard that you should file the front sight off. That way, when you've shot the magazine empty and bear grabs the gun, it won't hurt so much when the bear inserts the gun in you-know-where.  Note: I live in Ohio, we don't have big bears, just little ones.

[alonso1]

Honestly, I don't think I shoot well enough to notice much of a difference between 55gr and 62gr in my 1:9.  In Davilla I was using 62gr M855 and shot ok.  When I ran short on ammo, out of sheer desperation, I purchased 55gr Barnaul and shot Rifleman for the rest of the BC, go figure.
                                                                                                                                     Coyotes, big cats and humans are all different animals.  I don't hunt so I can't say much about that but you did mention the Castle doctrine.  Of the listed animals, I do know humans, even the bad ones, tend to use cover when being fired upon; therefore I prefer bonded ammunition with better penetration.
                                                                                                                                        Over penetration is always a concern, especially in an urban environment, but with the hit ratio being so low under extreme stress, I'm more concerned with just hitting the threat.

[VaWolf]

When I started shooting my SAR3 I was happy with Wolf 62gr as it shot better than Wolf 55gr. I swore I would never reload for a semi auto again. Now ammo prices have almost doubled and chasing down old brass is not the chore it used to be. My rifle likes 69gr Sierra matchkings and feeds them fine out of Wieger mags. As has been said above, try many different loads to see what your gun likes. More time shooting is always good.   Tommy

[ax238]

The rifle I purchased was a Kel Tec SU16.  Purely a Bug Out Bag gun, it is proving to be a wonderful little addition to my 'fun stuff'.  I love it.  I fold it in half and stuff it in a 3 day Battle Pack for travel.  It fits under the bed, under the truck seat, etc. etc.  I said I'd never own a AR (sorry Ar fans), but I really like my new little 5.56.  Since it is a piston system using the M16 breech bolt I feel it is worthy of my ownership. 

Tongue in cheek...

Ax