What I learned at the CMP

[thursday]

 Shot my first CMP match last Sunday.  Had a lot of fun and found out that even if the course of fire is similar different rules and targets can throw you.  To start with everything was shot from 200 yards the target was an enormous bulls eye 30 in? the black was maybe 12.  Slow fire prone was really slow 15 min for 15 shots loaded only one at a time, a good exercise for learning "first shot in cadence" I thought only the 10 best rounds count for score the rest are "sighters" everyone had enormous spotting scopes and spent inordinate amounts of time peering through them and dinking with their sights, I thought a rifle man was supposed to know his zero?
  Transition standing to prone was done loaded with the bolt closed on an empty chamber because they run the bolt guns in the same relay with the simiautos they give 80 seconds for 10 rounds in this stage.
  their was no seated or nealing stage.
  Standing slow fire is were I really fell apart, No sling allowed in standing OK I can see that standing is for quick shots where you might not have time to sling up even in hasty hasty, but this is slow fire 10 rounds in 10 minutes loaded one at a time My Dad taught me to never take an off hand shot if I could do otherwise, if I've got that kind of time I'm looking for a more stable shooting position.
Of course I'm grousing about the rules because I jest plane shot lousy on that stage
I also learned the difference between bullseye scoring and the "Hits count" philosophy of Appleseed.  Over all I wound up with a 240 out of 300 that won't bring home any ribbons but I was proud.
One fellow that I shoot black powder with started by telling How he did'nt need to pay money to go to Appleseed, he already knew how to shoot (and he dose shoot well) ended by telling Me "they must have taught you something out there at Osage Beach." from that old timer that's high praise for the program.

[TaosGlock]

In all my shooting years I have found our COF, i.e the AQT is better for any real or imagined situation and more of a challenge even if you are a gamer.
The CMP are great folks and doing a fantastic service.
I do get lots of folks saying they only do CQB stuff as it is "fast and furious" and these are usually the AR tacti-cool bunch that are "hardware" heavy.  Not that there is no place for accouterments.
Once they shoot Stage 2 and 3 of the AQT, they usually shut up.
I mean that in a positive way. It's like wow, "that was 55/65 seconds?"

[Colorado Pete]

The minute-per-shot of bullseye slow fire tends to make people fuss their shot in these stages.
If the shooter uses a six o'clock hold and has the rifle sights set 3 MOA above the dead-on setting for that distance (for highpower that gets the bullet to target center at all ranges) there should be no elevation fussing for a 200-yard-only match if the light conditions stay the same. Wind is another matter however (hence the spotting scope), plus for some guys, if there is some kind of knob in front of them they just can't help turning it even if it's unecessary.

Those highpower bulls have some unforgiving scoring rings, especially on the prone stages. The National Match Course is a good thing to do from time to time so as to expand your horizons beyond Appleseed and the AQT and learn a few new things. Fun fun!

[AZOpie]

Standing slow fire is were I really fell apart, No sling allowed in standing OK I can see that standing is for quick shots where you might not have time to sling up even in hasty hasty, but this is slow fire 10 rounds in 10 minutes loaded one at a time My Dad taught me to never take an off hand shot if I could do otherwise, if I've got that kind of time I'm looking for a more stable shooting position.

Very few people do well on this stage. I think they disallow the sling just to introduce some random luck into the scoring. It gets real fun when the wind is gusting around you...

Doing the CMP shoots is a good way of meeting others with similar interests, and to practice what you know from AS (other than not using your sling in offhand). In AZ we are doing a few of these as an instructor team to prepare for our Washington's birthday match in February, hoping to get the word out that Appleseed is much more than a beginner's rifle course, as seems to be the view of some in our high power arena out here. It can be a humbling experience to shoot one of these, especially if you get the chance to shoot one from actual distances instead of reduced targets. Windage becomes the main variable factor if you already know your come ups for you rifle and ammunition. Other things that get considered in that kind of shooting are temperature, humidity, and lighting (sunny / overcast / from what angle, etc.)

What you have to remember is that without the fundamentals, all the rest doesn't matter....

[ksuguy]

I wish that the CMP clinics and matches were more widespread.   I rarely see anything near me on their website.  If I do, it's often at a private club where I can't get in unless I already know another member. 

I'd like to go out to Arizona some time and compete in the Western games, probably the Garand match and maybe the vintage military match with my K31.  I'm probably not going to compete with the top shooters, but I'd be happy if I could get a respectable score in the middle of the pack.   

[AZOpie]

If I do, it's often at a private club where I can't get in unless I already know another member. 

You might want to make a call when you see them at private clubs - I believe they are all open to the public, lots of clubs host them as a way to bring potential members to their range. I could be wrong though, so take a moment to call or send an e-mail to the POC if you find one near you.

John

[ksuguy]

It's worth a shot.   A lot of the ranges around here aren't in a hurry to get new members though.  There is usually a waiting list.   Kind of makes it tough to get into it if you are new to shooting and don't own your own farmland.

I'm a bit of an oddity in the shooting world.  I didn't grow up with firearms (aside from the .22's at scout camp),  and I got into it completely on my own when I was in college about 10 years ago.  When you are starting from scratch and learning by yourself, it's kind of a challenge.   That's one of the reasons why I volunteered to help out with Appleseed, it is a great way to get new people into shooting and it provides good instruction and a place to shoot for newcomers.     

[BeSwift]

I shoot the CMP Eastern Games and at Camp Perry every year. I have my Rifleman patches on my shooting jacket and always garner several questions at each match from participants about Appleseed. I think most of the shooters are aware of us, but haven't done an Appleseed yet and they're curious. Might be a great way to expand the program if we could find a way to reach out to them (that wouldn't piss of CMP) and get em to the program. If we could find a way to "partner" with CMP, that'd be outstanding....Just thinking out loud...    BeSwift

[AZOpie]

We have talked out the partnering aspect out here as well. One approach we have discussed is to let some of our attendees know of the CMP events so that they can stretch their legs. Of course we would like them to let people know where they gained their skills as well.  

[Old Dog]

A couple of months after I attended the Feb. 2007 RBC at Ramseur I traveled to Camp Perry, OH for the Garand Master Instructor Course the CMP was doing up there.

I thought it would be a great "add" to the things I thought I'd learned at the RBC.  I was pretty disappointed.  Two days of sitting in a class room.  Nice folks but much of the time was wasted (in my opinion) explaining about all the things you could "order" from the CMP rather than really teaching us things about how to help folks learn to shoot better.   Glad I went.  They don't ship those big old 95 lb. cans holding about 1300 rounds of HXP and the two H&R barreled receivers I bought are really nice H&R M1 Garands now.

The advantage of meeting/mixing at CMP events would be getting to do some full distance shooting and meeting folks with similar (not the same as Appleseed, but similar) interests/efforts.

Have fun.

[NEWGUY556]

I wish that the CMP clinics and matches were more widespread.   I rarely see anything near me on their website.  If I do, it's often at a private club where I can't get in unless I already know another member. 

I'd like to go out to Arizona some time and compete in the Western games, probably the Garand match and maybe the vintage military match with my K31.  I'm probably not going to compete with the top shooters, but I'd be happy if I could get a respectable score in the middle of the pack.   

If you are in the 200 + range on the AQT then you could get a respectable score for sure and possibly earn a medal since you only compete against cut scores. I went last year, it was my first match and the first time shooting my M1 and I was 11 points shy of a medal. Back then I was barely in the 200 range on the AQT.
I plan on going back this year, If my eyes cooperate and I dont make any big mistakes I am in Silver Medal range and possibly Gold.
If you make it this year look me up and we can try to get squadded together.

[BobABQ]

If you want to get better at shooting standing without a sling go shoot some metallic silhouette matches!

Everything is shot standing without a sling/shooting jacket or any other type of support.

[loves2hunt59]

Our club runs 100 yd Garand matches several times a year, and unless I'm badly mistaken we must accept ALL comers.  Bill, who runs this program for us, told me that part of being accepted/allowed to run a CMP was that they must be open to the public, i.e. nonmembers.  There may be something different going on where you are but I doubt it. 
What I learned from the CMP shoots I attended here: an M1A is a lot heavier than a 10/22; the recoil from 7.62 NATO is considerably more than from a .22 LR; 7.62 NATO is much more expensive than .22 LR; its not as easy to shoot standing without a sling; many people with fancy spotting scopes spend their time chasing the last shot; Most shooters would benefit from an AS;  if you get a decent score and can help others diagnose their problems,  the walk back to the firing line is a great place to 7th step esp. with young shooters; THE SKILLS TAUGHT AT APPLESEED WORK!! even at a CMP match.

[ACPjunkie]

Although Appleseed and High Power both have similar styles of shooting, one is a lot more intensive than the other.

Appleseed will teach you the basics, NPOA, cadence, sight alignment, sight focus, how to use a sling; all of which every HP shooter has to know to do well.
However, High Power brings challenges not found in Appleseed. the X ring on a HP target is one MOA in diameter, in order to hit that you have to be much more critical about all the basics you learned at Appleseed. In short, what you learned and applied at Appleseed will get you started in High Power, to do well it takes focus on the basics and lots of practice.

Rob

[Fred]

Although Appleseed and High Power both have similar styles of shooting, one is a lot more intensive than the other.

    So which one is more intensive - the one which gives you all the marksmanship info you need - and also offers The Story to wake you up to being an American - or the target shooting match?

[mtmisfit]

they peer through their scopes and dink with their sights because "X"'s are what win matches, not just hits.

Sight adjustments are done because when lighting conditions change so do your sight settings.

The targets are huge so you can see them, the black appears to be the same size at all ranges which is why each range has it's own specific target. The X ring is small. It is a target match after all.

I do all types of shooting as I believe a rifleman should be well rounded as well as ambidextrous.

[Pvt.Joker]

  Standing slow fire is were I really fell apart, No sling allowed in standing OK I can see that standing is for quick shots where you might not have time to sling up even in hasty hasty, but this is slow fire 10 rounds in 10 minutes loaded one at a time My Dad taught me to never take an off hand shot if I could do otherwise, if I've got that kind of time I'm looking for a more stable shooting position.
Of course I'm grousing about the rules because I jest plane shot lousy on that stage

And THAT is why we call it "awful-hand".

[calinb]

I've shot a local CMP M1 Garand 800 aggregate match a number of times and I've shot Appleseed Rifleman.  I'd say both activities complement each other quite well.  The "shoot boss" at the local Garand match gives excellent pre-match orientations.  I've learned just as much about becoming a rifleman from him as from Appleseed.  After you shoot Rifleman (or even while working on it), I highly recommend shooting a CMP match with a military firearm that can actually reach out effectively to  400+ yards rather than just shooting a scaled 400 yard target and calling it "done."  Scaled targets are great (I use quarter-scale Appleseed targets at 7 yards for basement air rifle practice) but not everything "scales."

-Cal