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Shot Group Analysis #4

Started by Old Dog, December 01, 2007, 02:10:17 PM

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Old Dog

December 01, 2007, 02:10:17 PM
Anybody ever see this?
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

ken grant

#1
December 01, 2007, 02:16:55 PM
 Dragging wood
Pushing the shoulder
NPOA

Snake45

#2
December 01, 2007, 02:19:04 PM
Yes, with my Polytech. Been trying to nail down the problem. Tightening up the bedding has helped some but I'm still not getting the kind of groups I think I should.

I'm almost 100% sure it's the gun, not me. I get nice small, round groups with my M1 (and everything else).
Buddy said "Coach, I wanna score goals"
Coach said "Buddy, remember your role:
The fast guys get paid to shoot and to score
Protect them, Buddy, that's what you're here for
Protection, that's what you're here for."

--Warren Zevon, "Hit Somebody," My Ride's Here, 2002 Artemis Records

SGTCap

#3
December 01, 2007, 02:42:33 PM
poor trigger pull.

ax238

#4
December 01, 2007, 02:57:28 PM Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 03:00:15 PM by ax238
looks kinda like the butt of the stock is slipping off the shoulder.  It would be a tight group had it not steadily moved.  reason I say butt of the stock slipping is b/c it looks to consistent in movement in one direction than to be jerking the trigger.  then again, just a guess.

Tyrants prefer disarmed victims. Those who want freedom must be willing to fight for it.

SGTCap

#5
December 01, 2007, 03:01:19 PM
double tap.

my computer is acting up

wcmartin1

#6
December 01, 2007, 03:12:06 PM
Sling too tight.

Dragging wood.

NPOA.
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

voortrekker

#7
December 02, 2007, 07:57:11 PM
I would say this shooter is losing NPOA.

Looks like he/she is likely shooting prone and the elbow associated the the trigger finger is slipping further to the right during recoil, thus mis-directing the muzzle to the left.

I was constantly fighting this whilst wearing "tacti-cool" elbow pads firing prone.  These pads are just too darned slick to keep NPOA.

But, they definitley keep the blisters at bay. :)

If YOU are thinking, WE are winning.

Snake45

#8
December 03, 2007, 10:42:58 AM
If I might be stupid for a moment, what is "dragging wood"? Never heard the term before. Is that a gun problem or a shooter problem? Thanks.
Buddy said "Coach, I wanna score goals"
Coach said "Buddy, remember your role:
The fast guys get paid to shoot and to score
Protect them, Buddy, that's what you're here for
Protection, that's what you're here for."

--Warren Zevon, "Hit Somebody," My Ride's Here, 2002 Artemis Records

wcmartin1

#9
December 03, 2007, 11:04:36 AM
Copied from Grin's post -We Don't Need No Stinkin Sandbags:

Master Sergeant James R. Owens instructs shooters that the position of the right hand must be such that the trigger finger is able to move without touching the rifle stock. The finger touching or brushing on the stock during trigger pull is called, "dragging wood." This makes it impossible to pull the trigger straight back or in a fashion that does not disturb the sights. According to Master Sergeant Owens, a symptom of this is a group of shots strung out horizontally.

The United States Army Sniper Training Manual agrees with Master Sergeant Owens, and further states that touching any part of the rifle - including the trigger guard - even at a slight angle will disturb the sights.
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

Old Dog

#10
December 03, 2007, 11:05:19 AM
It's not stupid, it's and attempt to learn.  Thanks for asking, now you (and anyone else who doesn't know and reads this) will know.

Dragging wood is when an improper grip of the firing hand on the wrist of the stock results in your trigger finger touching/rubbing the side of the stock as your trigger finger puts an increasing amount of pressure on the trigger.  This can result in your trigger finger (since it is moving and touching the stock) disrupting your sight alignment on the target.

Only the first "pad" of your trigger finger (about the middle of the first pad actually) should be used to press the trigger rearward.  This will help you keep the rest of your finger off the stock.  I've seen folks really struggle with this on AR's when they slide their firing hand too far up the pistol grip (to where it stops from contacting the lower receiver).  Some folks also have problems with those big old aftermarkt synthetic stocks for the 10/22's.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Snake45

#11
December 03, 2007, 12:28:56 PM
Thanks guys! Cleared that right up. I was kinda hoping it was a gun problem, like the op-rod rubbing the inside of the stock or something.  ;)

Speaking of pulling the trigger of an AR (not to hijack the thread or anything), I discovered long, long ago that, due to its extremely short "reach," the best way to pull an AR's trigger is not with the finger tip or pad, or even with the distal joint, but with the proximal joint (of all things!). I've taught this trick to a number of AR shooters over the years and every single one of them has reported back to me that their shooting with AR improved doing this. Before y'all have fits, let me hasten to add that I don't shoot any other kind of gun this way--just ARs.
Buddy said "Coach, I wanna score goals"
Coach said "Buddy, remember your role:
The fast guys get paid to shoot and to score
Protect them, Buddy, that's what you're here for
Protection, that's what you're here for."

--Warren Zevon, "Hit Somebody," My Ride's Here, 2002 Artemis Records

ken grant

#12
December 03, 2007, 12:41:22 PM
 I have 4 Ar's----2 with standard triggers that I don't use the pad on my trigger finger.
The triggers heavy and I feel better with using the first joint.
The other 2 have double stage triggers with lighter 2nd stages. I have to use the finger pad on these so I can control them better. I find if I use the first joint, I let off some shots before their time.

Old Dog

#13
December 03, 2007, 08:50:19 PM
from the Guide
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

voortrekker

#14
December 03, 2007, 09:54:00 PM
Hmmmm.......and the Guide strikes again.

It looks like I'm gonna have to bring out the old grey papered "rifleman's bible" once more(like the twentieth time).

Especially for you, M1A4ME.  With all these darned questions!!!!!!!!!

What are you trying to do, make us all riflemen or what???????

I'm liken it though, keep the questions coming.


I bring the "Rifleman's Guide" to the range with me always and learn something new EVERYTIME, and when I thought I knew it all, I don't.


The Guide is totally PACKED with useful information and it takes time to absorb it all, many rereads, at least for me.

If YOU are thinking, WE are winning.

Old Dog

#15
December 03, 2007, 11:27:21 PM
You know something?  Another reason for finding some buddies to shoot with is being able to learn from each other while at the range and while discussing the results of the range trip together.

I've found (in my job as an process engineer) that the best way to learn from an incident (good or bad) is to get together with other knowledgeable people and discuss what happened and why it happened.  As a group you'll come up with more good ideas and gain better understanding than you will on your own.

Guaranteed.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

SGTCap

#16
December 04, 2007, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: M1A4ME on December 03, 2007, 11:27:21 PM


I've found (in my job as an process engineer) that the best way to learn from an incident (good or bad) is to get together with other knowledgeable people and discuss what happened and why it happened.  As a group you'll come up with more good ideas and gain better understanding than you will on your own.

Guaranteed.

In the military we just find someone of lower rank to blame things on.  THen we deny knowledge of their actions.  But your way may work too.   ;D

SGTCap

#17
December 04, 2007, 10:28:27 PM Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 11:04:38 PM by SGTCap
Quote from: Snake45 on December 03, 2007, 10:42:58 AM
If I might be stupid for a moment, what is "dragging wood"? Never heard the term before. Is that a gun problem or a shooter problem? Thanks.
Deleted by me:  Although funny my comment was probably in poor taste

Snake45

#18
December 05, 2007, 12:12:49 AM
Quote from: SGTCap on December 04, 2007, 10:28:27 PM
Quote from: Snake45 on December 03, 2007, 10:42:58 AM
If I might be stupid for a moment, what is "dragging wood"? Never heard the term before. Is that a gun problem or a shooter problem? Thanks.
Deleted by me:  Although funny my comment was probably in poor taste
Now that I think about it, I can prolly imagine.  ;)

But if you just must share, feel free to PM me. I'm always up for a poor taste comment. Especially one about wood.  ;D
Buddy said "Coach, I wanna score goals"
Coach said "Buddy, remember your role:
The fast guys get paid to shoot and to score
Protect them, Buddy, that's what you're here for
Protection, that's what you're here for."

--Warren Zevon, "Hit Somebody," My Ride's Here, 2002 Artemis Records

Nickle

#19
December 05, 2007, 07:52:17 PM
Quote from: SGTCap on December 04, 2007, 10:25:30 PM

In the military we just find someone of lower rank to blame things on.  THen we deny knowledge of their actions.  But your way may work too.   ;D

Yeah we do.

Sometimes we even blame it on higher ranking folks (we actually get away with that one in the Guard). It's ALWAYS the Platoon Sergeant's fault.
They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians and Canadians and this country being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting. . . . ".  Lord Percy

Sounds like New Englanders to me.
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