Why do you check, check, recheck things while reloading??

[BSHRADER]

I deprime and resize my cases, then reprime with a hand primer. I then bell the cases, and weigh and dump the powder in loading blocks of 50. I then visibly inspect each case to make sure their uniformly filled. I was doing this with a bar powder and noticed they were all over the place. Started re weighing the powder and had  up to 10 grain differences. Found out my powder dispenser didn't like bar powder. Dumped all, and started using dip method with this powder. Sure glad I looked.

[ItsanSKS]

Why is a progressive seen as a bad thing?

It isn't seen as a bad thing, but it is not recommended for those just beginning on the reloading path, and there are a couple of reasons.

1: A progressive press allows someone to potentially get complacent in Quality Assurance; every time you pull the handle, a completed round pops out- very easy to get into a rhythm and forget to check things like primer orientation, powder weight consistency, etc.

2: Starting with a single-stage press ensures greater familiarity with the processes involved in making the finished round.  It also gives you multiple opportunities to check for cartridge uniformity.

Consistency is the key to accuracy- the more consistent you can make your round, the better your groups will be, assuming you do your part.  Single stage presses, with hand-trickled powder weights, are generally considered to be the most consistent.  Progressives allow you to quickly load hundreds of well-prepared cases, but a mistake in setting up any of the dies could cause a batch of 100's of rounds to be useless.

[desertrat144]

1: A progressive press allows someone to potentially get complacent in Quality Assurance; every time you pull the handle, a completed round pops out- very easy to get into a rhythm and forget to check things like primer orientation, powder weight consistency, etc.

I started with a Dillon RL-550, and used it as a single stage press until my confidence [in it, myself & techniques] was up there.  Then I started 'production' types of runs but with cautions described.

Even after reloading 1000s + rounds on my Dillon, I always ran a check every 10^th round on pistol.  I was using Isreali powders for them, and never got a variation of more than 1/10 gr.- this was the dump & weigh method.  Extruded powders were wild cards- some would sheer easily (consistant weights), others... well... I tried alternative powders.

One method that works for control [for me, at that time] was to weigh every 10-20^th round; a 5-15 gr variation from the control round (updated every 100 rifle, and 200 pistol) worked well in finding squibs.  

Everyone devolps their own 'comfort' levels for variatons in weights.  Out of all lessons learned, even when teaching my daughters to reload- There is NO TV, Phone, &c. PERIOD  the price of an error was too high.

Also, start with the lightest load the manufacturer starts with on the powder tables.

Tom

[PHenry]

D144,
We have that in common sir! I also began on a 550 (older one upgraded to a 550B) and I did so in "progressive mode, but very, very slowly and carefully. I say the order out loud as I do it, to keep it straight. Now ya'll bear in mind, we're talking about progressive, not auto-indexing. I still size and decap in single stage mode, as I use mostly once-fired mil cases and they must be swagged and trimmed before priming. I have never had a single primer not seat correctly on the Dillon, but I still eyeball every one before I pack it up.

For me, the best chance of a screw up is in distraction, causing me to lose the order, hence the verbal confirm prior to each pull.

I am looking to switch to an electronic scale - have had too many malfs with the beam. Although brand new, it "sticks" and I have to be uber-careful to avoid overcharge. Further, it is dead easy to bump the little 1/10 gram weight - just too darn much trouble and I have my eye on a new one at Cabela's that is less than the Dillon, but same accuracy rating. My auto powder measure works very well - stays within 1/10 grain on ball powder and does near that well on extruded, but does require more care and a slower hand - bring the handle down and let it rest for a second, before raising it agin.

I shoot HP competition (got two matches in this year - bare minimum to maintain card required to shoot from position at my local range), and I load for that - mostly short stick, like R15 (actually mil pull down "Long Range"), and I have zeroed a great recipe for 77 grain HP match rounds. Once the auto measure is set - it does just fine. I mean, I am no expert and have less than 2000 loaded rounds of experience, but I check it periodically and the targets never lie. 

Back to bailing.

Reloading is like "yoga" for me - it's my therapy to unwind at end of day and offers me a little sense of accomplishment. Since Appleseeds - it is the only "hobby" I have left. 

[marrandy]

This is interesting.

So both Trey and Eric reload.  Maybe we can get together and have a reload party.  :-)

I have looked into it for a couple of years, almost bought 2 or 3 times but spent my money on rifles, hand guns and ammo instead.

Being an ex electronics technician, and now an IT system/sever/security administrator (well, I consult actually), both jobs require precision as one error will cause a failure, as in many things in life.

I have noted a number of items.

Use a powder that will fill more than half of your case with a charge.  Then a double charge will spill out.  

If you don't do the above...if you every feel any compression of the powder, stop, take it apart, and find out what is going on.

YMMV

[PHenry]

marrandy,
Come over some weekend and I'll run you through entire process from tedious end to tedious end.

Referring to your earlier PM - go with the 550. It can be run like a single stage, handles all the calibers you are interested in, and once you ready, will rock and roll like old fashioned cola. 

Prepping the cases and working up loads is the tedious part - the actual loading is pretty quick. It's all therapy to me. 

[Old Dog]

PHenry is absolutely right.  The biggest time taker and effort is in getting the cases ready to load.

step 1 is run them through the vibrating cleaner to get the dirt/powder residue off (makes the dies last longer, too).
step 2 is to soak them in some warm water with (dog gone it, can't remember the name of the stuff - its crystals in a green bottle that you add to your dishwasher to get the spots off the dishes - but the important thing is it will shine your brass up like new in about 10 minutes vs. several hours in the polisher)
step 3 is to throw them back in the polisher after knocking the water out of them and let the walnut shells and sunlight dry the inside and outside of the cases
step 4 is resizing/depriming them
step 5 is getting the resizing lube off them (I usually let the polisher do that for me, too - there is so much other stuff I can do while that thing is running out on the deck)
step 6 is running them through the case trimmer (unless its a batch I've already trimmed the first time I reloaded them).  I check to make sure there is no walnut shell particle in the flash hole and remove it when there is (paper clip works fine for this)
step 7 is chamfering the case mouth (removes the burrs/sharp edges from the trimming process
steps
step 8 is running any of the military cases through the press with the primer pocket swager installed to remove the crimp on the primer pocket
step 9 is putting the primers in (I sometimes let mine sit a few days with primers in them and it hasn't seemed to hurt anything so far - just sitting in the loading blocks in my shed) I also check to make sure the primers are seated correctly

At each of the above steps I'm looking at the cases and sometimes I wonder how in the world I missed the cracked case mouth or other "lethal" damage that results in the case going into the scrap bin during one of the previous steps.

step 10 is set up the powder measure (using the scale till I get it just right) and then put powder in a couple hundred cases - I always check every case with a small flashlight to insure it has powder in it.  I also check every 10th case on the scale to insure there is no "drift" in the amount of powder measured into the case.
step 11 is setting up the die and seating the bullets in those cases.

As you can see, case prep/inspection takes far more time than the powder/bullet steps.  The good thing is you can do a lot of it well ahead of time and store the cleaned and ready brass in a gallon sized zip lock freezer bag or other plastic air tight jug/bottle/container and it will stay nice and shiny.

My reloads have been used to kill all the deer I've killed, all the groundhogs exept for two (shot with a .22 handgun at close range) and lots of paper, soda cans (that's pop cans for you southerners), milk jugs, etc.

Learning to reload and doing it right is another step in getting to know your rifles - and your own capabilities even better.

Have fun, be safe.  Usually the most accurate loads are not the fastest (highest pressure) loads but are found 2 to 300 fps slower than the max load.

[K98Al]

I don't usually wash my cases,as long as they aren't muddy or somehow nasty, I resize 'em, throw'em in the tumbler with corn cob media, then trim.
Keep in mind my cases are not "found on range" stuff, they go from box to gun and back again.

If you use the trimmer/sizer, it will take out the pieces of media that get stuck in the flash hole, as the pin passes through hole to bottom out on portion of tool that is either hand held or chucked in a drill. (I prefer the drill) The trimmer should bottom out at the correct "trim to" length for that specific caliber, but I had one that was too long - that will leave you necks too long and possibly cause some really nasty pressures. So measure everything!

After filling cases, I hold tray under light, so I can see that all are evenly filled.

It's a good idea to weigh some bullets before loading also, to make sure you you don't get a batch of 180s when you were supposed to be loading 150s.  Seems elementary, but it happens.

Learning to check the depth on primers is critical if you're reloading for a semi auto particularly.

[PHenry]

I only "launder" my cases if they are stained. Fresh range pick ups will tumble up pretty quick, but u can tumble a stained case for 12 hours and it will still be stained - shiny, but stained (how do I know this u ask?).

For the stained versions, I use a Birchwood Casey product that is some sort of mild acid - takes 2 minutes to clean them and then after a few rinses in warm water, I lay them out on the tops of Rubbermaid brand, 18 gallon totoe tops on garage floor. I have a big floor fan and I run it on them and shuffle them several times over course of a few hours. Once dry, the tumble clean in an hour or less.

To remove lube, I just tumble finished bullets in corn cob for 10 minutes to no ill effects and that saves me having to git the media out of flash hole.

For a case trimmer (rifle only), I use the Giraud trimmer. Works like a pencil sharpener - very consistent, but pricey (worth every penny). http://www.giraudtool.com/prod02.htm

[Old Dog]

Lemi-shine - lemi-shine....I remembered the name (really my wife reminded me just now).

I put warm water in a plastic container, put a couple table spoons of lemi-shine in the water and stir it up.  And then dump the cases in and let them sit for about 5 or 10 minutes (it can be less).

If you want to see how well it works hold a tarnished case on one end, stick half of it into the water (with lemi-shine) and swirl it around three or four times and pull it out.  Half will be shining like a new case and the other half will be dull and tarnished.  It drastically reduces the time required to get nice shiny brass.

[ThaiFighter]

Here's a technique that Itsansks and I pioneered for testing hot experimental loads...

Wait for Phenry to turn his back and slip a few rounds into his mags and stand waaaaayyyyyy back. 

Item #442 in the Appleseed excuse book: "My groups opened up because Itsansks and Thaifighter were testing new loads!" 

[ItsanSKS]

Dude, you know PHenry is never going to let us near him again while he's on the firing line, right?  Good going!
Guess we'll just have to prep mags for Sly223 now...

[PHenry]

Very funny.

I run every round through a simple test. I shake them next to my ear and listen for powder, then I visually inspect the primer and overall appearance. Each round is also measured for OAL prior to the final "audio/visual" check.

When I test fire a new load - I always wear eye protection, line up the rifle on a bench rest, turn my face away and squeeze the trigger - just in case. The chance of a problem is perdy slim, as I work up from well below established guidelines. It would seem to this newbie that pistol powders should be kept well marked and away from the reloading bench when running rifle rounds - as that would be a mistake made only once.

[Bill of Rights]

I've now loaded 200 rds of 9mm FMJ (aka range only) ammo. All of them weighed in, when completed, at between 178 and 183 grains total case weight. (one round each at the extremes; majority 180-181.4 grains)

with one exception. A round which I noticed on weighing was like 172 gr, but the bullet looked a little shorter, too. The bullets I'm using have a line around them and this one was at the same place as the other rounds, but the tip, beyond that line, didn't come up as high. I made a point of marking that round, but I didn't need to as it sits lower in my cartridge box than the others.

I've also found that my press does not have a check on it to ensure that the primer is seated prior to putting a powder charge in the case. I found this when I seated a bullet on top of the charged but unprimed case and had to dump the powder out through the flash hole prior to tapping the bullet out and re-running the case through the press. Prime, powder, powder check, seat, crimp, weigh, and box.

Henceforth, I'll be depriming and repriming all cases first, then removing the depriming die.

Questions for the group:

Is that 5-6 grain difference in total weight significant enough for me to worry? I took the suggested powder charge down 10% before calibrating my press to throw a charge.
Is the short round one I should avoid using? Again, this is just range ammo. I use factory JHPs for my SD carry.
Is there anything else I should be noting when asking questions like this?

Thanks all, for the feedback.

Blessings,
Bill

[Old Dog]

I would not shoot it.  I haven't reloaded 9mm (yet) but the cases are fairly small and probably don't have much powder (vs case and bullet weight) anyway.  You can use a kinetic bullet puller (I've used mine for years with no issues) to remove the bullet.

Once I put powder in the cases I always use a small flashlight to look down in the cases to see if they have powder and if the powder level is similar case to case.

I use old pistol (.45 acp) plastic trays that some of the ammo manufacturer's use in their boxes of ammo for my reloading/case trays.  They are white but light still passes through them.  I can glance at the 50 cases (base down in the tray) and see if they have walnut shell media left in them if I shine a light up from the bottom of the tray.  I can do a double check to see if they have primers in them, too.

Anytime you have doubt that you did everything right - stop - and backtrack and check to make sure you did it right.  Everytime you pull the trigger you're setting off a miniature explosion in your hand/near your face - you need to be sure you've "built" the reload correctly.

The jokes above about testing reloads are jokes, not serious in any way.  Folks who don't reload sensibly don't reload for long. 

[nmmi9100]

I always load everything singlestage...thousands of rounds of 308 a year...and quite a few 30-06 & 338 Lapua.

The reason I load single stage (and I use a Redding T-7 Turret Press) is that I've yet to find a progressive that will Swage and Anneal.  Hard to fit the MAPP/Propane torch next to the Powder Measure 

I've used the Giraud, really like them, but I'm still trimming on an RCBS lathe-type trimmer....have got the cutter now that chamfers, deburrs, and trims at the same time.

I've always annealed with a cordless drill clamped on the bench using a 3/8" drive tool and a deep socket but I just picked up a Ken Light BC1000 annealer this weekend so I'll see how that works.

My method of reloading is by fairly large batches a couple steps at a time...say 200-300 rounds or so in a night.  After work, I'll do one or two steps to all of my brass.  Last night, for example, I pulled a couple hundred pieces of 30-06 brass out of the tumbler, lubed them, sized them, trimmed them, cleaned the primer pockets, and threw them back in the tumbler overnight.  Tonight, I'll inspect them all, clean the corncob out of the flash holes, and prime them.  On Thursday, I'll drop powder and seat bullets.

Bottom line, as everyone here has indicated, check and recheck at every step of your reloads.  Something will distract you in your process and having a secondary check may save your sight or your life.

-David
Edgewood, NM

[PHenry]

The jokes above about testing reloads are jokes, not serious in any way.  Folks who don't reload sensibly don't reload for long.

OD,
Agreed. There are old reloaders and bold reloaders, but no such thing as old and bold reloaders. It's like shooting. Not inherently dangerous, but there are inviolable rules that must be followed. I began reloading by looking at pics of exploded rifles and maimed shooters. I would recommend same for all new reloaders. It's the same principle I employ in my 9:AM briefing. :"Can anyone tell me the possible consequence of failing to follow the safety rules I am about to teach you?" "Great bodily harm and death". I like to get their attention right before I begin and nothing gets people on the same page as fear of GBH & D.

When in doubt - pull it down. It's tedious, but beats GBH&D. I have pulled hundreds of rounds down - just to be absolutely certain. Someone asked me the other day - how many of your hand loads have failed? Huh? ahhh, none. He was amazed. Take your time. Focus. Check and re-check. Inspect every round visually, top to bottom and all around, before storing it for shooting. Safety is job #1 in all things rifle.

[Old Dog]

OD,
Agreed. There are old reloaders and bold reloaders, but no such thing as old and bold reloaders.

You will not believe me when I tell you I typed this same line, but with the addition/comparison to the "bold fighter pilots and old fighter pilots" quote at the end of my post this morning and then deleted it before I hit the post key.

Sometimes its scary around here.