Author Topic: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!  (Read 13118 times)

Offline Noah A

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Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« on: March 15, 2010, 10:02:14 PM »
I just wanted to let anyone who's interested know I've not died, I was just moving is all. However my hours at work were cut and now I'm too broke to attend an Appleseed for a little while. Actually I'm too broke to do much of anything, even renew my range membership!

Nevertheless I'm still determined to work towards getting to a shoot in the US, and bringing a modified Appleseed Project to Canada.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:21:51 PM by Noah A »

Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 02:47:03 PM »
this I too would like to see... it seems to be hard to get some Canadians (that i talk to) to buy into this concept since we do not have a bill of rights, however most understand the concept of being able to defend themselves.  it seems to me that people of today do not want to get their hands dirty, the current generations are soft... and ripe for plundering it seems.

So where do we start?  the concept of the Appleseed and promoting/refining shooting skills is a great idea... somehow I feel we must also understand that liberty and freedom aren't free, someone paid for them... besides Canadians are not truly free...
Just my two cents...

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 06:17:55 PM »
Well I don't think anybody is 100% freedom, and it's often argued that absolute freedom is absolute anarchy. The BNA Act incorporates British Common Law into Canada and as a result the rights to property and  arms should be included as well. However the Supreme Court of Canada (as with most other nations) has decided that no right is absolute, and thus Parliament may abridge rights to the extent necessary (and no greater than necessary) for the public good. Thus what we need to do is convince Canadians that firearms ownership and use are not only in THEIR best interest (most shooters agree) but also in the national best interest. Because no matter how great the personal good (defence of life) it doesn't stand as an argument against the "greater good" argument posed by gun control advocates. Thus the opinion of what the public good is, must be changed. I'm saying the right to self defence in Canada is (not recognized and) a useless argument against gun control.

Getting people to come to 'seeds would be quite easy, "Learn to shoot" and people show up. However those people are often "the choir" so to speak, preaching to them is of little effect. The choir needs to be converted from back-room complainers to a positive activists changing the public opinion (not forcing an opinion on the public). Sending the mass of gun owners into public and before the media to declare that nobody has the right to take their guns away and that they are no danger hasn't proved (and never will) effective. The public needs to be convinced that property is important again and that mass firearms ownership is good for the group as a whole, and for non-firearms owners. Most people will also not buy the "fending off invaders" argument as it's unlikely that Canada will be invaded and they've deferred that mental space to the Canadian Forces (regardless of their ability to do so.) At this time Canada also has many allies and it would be unlikely that a national body would directly attack Canada without warning, or time to prepare.

Offline henschman

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2010, 03:42:10 PM »
I see you've given a lot of thought to the difficulty of making an appeal to Canadians about the reasons to learn marksmanship.  I agree that promoting it as a defense against foreign aggression wouldn't go over well, and that the self-defense rationale would have limited appeal.

It seems to me that marksmanship is a very effective way to warm people up to liberty in general.  It was my interest in guns that first led me to start thinking about liberty issues, when I was a youngster.  We all know that marksmanship is a whole lot of fun.  Perhaps the best approach would be to simply promote it as a way of learning rifle marksmanship, a fun outdoors activity that is part of Canadian heritage.  Promote it the best you can to non-shooters, and just try to get more people involved in shooting.  Like Thomas Jefferson said, marksmanship is moderate exercise for the body but promotes boldness and independence of spirit.  The more people get into shooting, the more independent-minded and open to the idea of individual liberty they become.  I actually think a program like Appleseed could still be fairly successful even without the history, just because it is so fun and challenging.  It really is the marksmanship that gets people hooked in the first place.

It would also be great if you could figure out a way to tie in a civic message, like what we teach at Appleseeds here in the U.S. about getting involved in the political system... encouraging people to vote, contact their representatives, campaign for good candidates, run for office themselves, join or form organizations, etc.

Maybe you could approach it by asking the shooters if they enjoyed themselves... then mention how great it is that you are free to get together to practice something like this, and how it would be against the law in many countries to have something like an Appleseed shoot.  You could talk about how great it is to live in a "free society,"   Remind them that "free societies" depend on people being active and involved in preserving their freedom, and that fortunately we have peaceful ways of doing that, unlike some places... suggest being involved all the above-mentioned activities.  Who can argue against an organization that promotes civic responsibility?  If you do that, you make it more than just a shooting club... it becomes a good cause that people will be willing to volunteer for.

To appeal to the average Canadian, of course you might have to make some changes, as you know... you will probably want to make sure that nothing about it seems "paramilitary."  How do you feel about the silhouette-shaped targets?  Do you think that would scare people off?  What about all the talk about "man-sized targets?" 

What about the name?  "Appleseed" refers to Johnny Appleseed, an American folk figure.  Maybe you should come up with a whole different name for the Canadian program.

Man, what an exciting opportunity you have, Noah... starting a program that could change your nation forever! 
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2010, 07:39:02 PM »
It's hard to start a program when you're flat broke. Especially a program that requires numerous trips the US to go through the program. :(

The program needs to be about more than teaching people to shoot, otherwise why not just start a school and charge people money to learn to shoot and laugh to the bank.

The most important part is creating cultural evangelists out of the people who are already interested in shooting. I don't think there would be much if any luck randomly marketing to Canadians (say with posters) that they can learn to shoot anyways.

The Canadian public at large shoot for (in my observation) one of 3 reasons, history (they grew up with it, or hunting etc), bachelor[ette] parties, and someone else who shoots invites them.

We can't change people's heritage, and we can't have them all go to the range for bachellorette parties, and even if, that seldom translates into enthusiasm*. So we must have friends invite friends.

I think it would be very good to observe some of the most effective evangelistic methods of various religions and develop a structured plan based around that, and teach people why they have to evangelize, and how to be effective at it.

Not that religion and shooting are the same thing, but getting people into organizations is largely the same regardless of if they're religious or sporting. How many people who've never played hockey before show up to join a team?

* The parties seldom translate into enthusiasm because they're not there for shooting, they're there for fun, like video games. Also I suspect it's because it's ridiculously expensive. Be it $30 range fees, $1/shot ammunition, or worse the incredibly elitist attitudes of most range workers. Also most ranges are dirty, ramshackle establishments with little to appeal to the average person. Heck even the average shooter probably complains about most.

The attitudes of course are the worst, but most people don't think "Gosh I'd like to try this hobby with a mountain of paperwork and expensive licenses so that I can spend $60 a week on it!"

For example one range here is almost $400/year and they make you use their ammunition which is almost twice as expensive as from a chain sporting goods store. Who wants to take up shooting with expenses and hassle like that.

I've put, and do continue to put a lot of thought into this but the more I think about it often the worse I feel, it's just so expensive and I'm greatly discouraged by the poor attitudes of Canadian shooters. If firearms are banned in Canada (which would rally the anti-gunners in the US who look to Canada as an example in many areas of politics) it will be because Canadian shooters are politically apathetic, and hostile.

When someone interested does show up at a range or gun club meeting they're made to feel incredibly unwelcome. It's a complaint I've seen over and over again from non-shooters.

Offline colycat

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2010, 12:32:19 AM »
It's hard to start a program when you're flat broke. Especially a program that requires numerous trips the US to go through the program. :( I am just comng in, have you been to AS in the USA.  It appears you have.The program needs to be about more than teaching people to shoot, otherwise why not just start a school and charge people money to learn to shoot and laugh to the bank.  Good Appleseeds are all about history.  Of corse we teach them to shoot, but I would not be here on Sat night at 10 PM if it was about shooting.The most important part is creating cultural evangelists out of the people who are already interested in shooting. I don't think there would be much if any luck randomly marketing to Canadians (say with posters) that they can learn to shoot anyways.

The Canadian public at large shoot for (in my observation) one of 3 reasons, history (they grew up with it, or hunting etc), bachelor[ette] parties, and someone else who shoots invites them.

We can't change people's heritage, and we can't have them all go to the range for bachellorette parties, and even if, that seldom translates into enthusiasm*. So we must have friends invite friends.

I think it would be very good to observe some of the most effective evangelistic methods of various religions and develop a structured plan based around that, and teach people why they have to evangelize, and how to be effective at it.

 What I have taken from the evangelistic methodes is to get the shooters tired and beat down by the grind of the day,  All the MTV and MSNBC is washed out,  then hit them with thoughtfull sincere 7 th step.

Not that religion and shooting are the same thing, but getting people into organizations is largely the same regardless of if they're religious or sporting. How many people who've never played hockey before show up to join a team?

* The parties seldom translate into enthusiasm because they're not there for shooting, they're there for fun, like video games. Also I suspect it's because it's ridiculously expensive. Be it $30 range fees, $1/shot ammunition, or worse the incredibly elitist attitudes of most range workers. Also most ranges are dirty, ramshackle establishments with little to appeal to the average person. Heck even the average shooter probably complains about most.

The attitudes of course are the worst, but most people don't think "Gosh I'd like to try this hobby with a mountain of paperwork and expensive licenses so that I can spend $60 a week on it!"

For example one range here is almost $400/year and they make you use their ammunition which is almost twice as expensive as from a chain sporting goods store. Who wants to take up shooting with expenses and hassle like that.

Our local range is $ 20. per year.

I've put, and do continue to put a lot of thought into this but the more I think about it often the worse I feel, it's just so expensive and I'm greatly discouraged by the poor attitudes of Canadian shooters. If firearms are banned in Canada (which would rally the anti-gunners in the US who look to Canada as an example in many areas of politics) it will be because Canadian shooters are politically apathetic, and hostile. 

We always use Canada as an example of what is coming.

When someone interested does show up at a range or gun club meeting they're made to feel incredibly unwelcome. It's a complaint I've seen over and over again from non-shooters.


Noah, my comments are in red.  I feel for you, I really do.  Any chance you could emigrate to the USA, and help us save the only place on earth?  Its the only place on earth because its the only place where, in all of human history, the theory of negitive liberty was written as law.  That being , that the goverment cannot do ......you fill in the blanks.  Citizens had all the rights, given by God.

Keep the faith

Colycat
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives everything its value."   T Paine

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Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2010, 02:59:45 AM »
Actually I'm a dual citizen by birth, however I married a Canadian girl who has a number of health problems which make living in the US prohibitively expensive.

There are rural ranges that are $80/yr here, most in-city ranges are $300-$400. Daily passes being $30. Indoor ranges are very appealing though. For example it's been snowing all afternoon here.

I've not been to a shoot state side, I've had to suffer just hearing about everything from my various state side friends. My point was in-fact that teaching people to shoot isn't very useful.

Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 09:06:59 AM »
Yes, I thing we have a few issues to overcome regarding creating a more positive attitude towards gun ownership here in Canada.

Colycat, I am curious tho why you would point at Canada as what is coming for the states?  I was under the impression that your country now is not far behind us in terms of Government interference, with the exception of handguns?  What with some states prohibiting assault weapons and other military style guns... the places that scare me are Great Britain and Australia... you can't even get a .22lr without a special permit.  Ah what am I saying, it is bad here...

I think Noah is on to something... the thing that caught my attention about the A.S. shoots was the marksmanship, it just sounds like it would be a bunch of fun... but catering to first time shooters (thus getting more people involved and excited aboot it) would be key, emphasizing the learning proper technique and handling skills.

I think the first step for me would be to come down (most likely Montana) and participate in an A.S. and see how it's done first hand... then perhaps take an instructor type course then see what kind of interest a guy could generate at his local gun club...

Thanks gents, for the knowledge and insight on how to get this rolling... I think it is amazing what you have done with this concept in a few short years!
Cheers,
Dave

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 03:06:58 PM »
I've budgeted the process of becoming an instructor at roughly $6,700. Most of that is travel expenses and assumes borrowed weapons.

Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 12:53:21 PM »
Wow, that seems quite expensive... I must have a poor view in what it takes to get the instructor qualification... seems I have some more research to do here.
Cheers,
Dave

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 01:00:03 PM »
Basically it's because it would require so many trips to the US. Even with seat sale flights and nothing but canned food.

Offline actineon

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2010, 05:59:59 PM »
You could minimize your cost by attending an IBC. That will take you from IIT to IIT3 quicker. I think there is likely to be an IBC scheduled in Couer d'Alene in August. Couer d'Alene is about as close to you as you'll find. (Monitor the Idaho State board to find out when the IBC is actually scheduled or just PM Western Rose.) You can minimize your cost of getting rifleman by studying the instructor's manual, buying some AQTs over the internet or printing them yourself and then practicing on your own until you can shoot 210. This isn't as desirable as learning at an appleseed, but if money is a huge driving factor, you can get by with less.

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't dissapeared yet!
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2010, 06:21:32 PM »
What you suggest is basically what I've calculated, there is no cheap way to do this. I am currently unemployed so it's even harder. Fortunately my wife has a good job.

The RBC schedule doesn't show anything happening in Coeur d'Alene or ID in general. Three Forks MT would probably be the one, that's 1,100 miles of driving though which is a long and expensive drive, and our family only has one vehicle.


Offline actineon

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2010, 07:20:48 PM »
Don't confuse an RBC with an IBC. RBC stands for riflemans boot camp. It is where you can get the most intensive training to shoot well and it's a week long. Three Forks will have an RBC Sept 12-19. You can, however, get the riflemans patch at a normal weekend Appleseed shoot. I should warn you though, it is common to take 2 to 4 Appleseeds to get good enough to get the patch. You can speed things up if you are teachable and actually do what is instructed and if you practice on your own with Appleseed AQTs.

The IBC is an instructor boot camp. People who have gotten rifleman and attended 2 shoots can enter. (I believe a Master Instructor can waive the 2 shoots requirement.) There is almost no shooting or possibly no shooting at all. It is a camp to teach instructors how to teach. Without an IBC you would need to teach at one Appleseed at IIT, another at IIT1, and another at IIT2 to get promoted to IIT3. That's 3 Appleseeds to get to IIT3. Attending an IBC one weekend and its corresponding Appleseed another and you can get to IIT3 in just 2 weekends. (You'll also get better training since IBCs tend to be run by Master Instructors.)

The Couer d'Alene IBC isn't on the schedule yet. Western Rose is still planning it, but I believe it is likely to be in August.

Another possibility to lessen your cost is you might be able to convince a redhat to do an Appleseed in your area. If you got a range set up and you promoted it well enough so attendance was good, you might be able to draw instructors to your area.

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2010, 07:38:44 PM »
Sorry I did mean IBC, and I even missclicked the schedule because I typed the error! Thanks. funfaler has said he might be able to do a shoot in Calgary which is only 185miles from here. However scheduling and promotion is still a major issue. Probably the best thing is just to save up and do it.

Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2010, 04:25:29 PM »
Thanks for this info Actineon... very helpful!
Cheers,
Dave

Offline Wheeler44

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2010, 04:33:14 PM »
Hey Canada...Find a range...promote the shoot....We will come....I have many friends in the Great White and would love to instruct a shoot or twenty up there...
"Appleseed,  putting the second amendment into the hands of American citizens."     -Mrs. Wheeler

"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship instructors on the planet."   -Son of Martha

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2010, 05:38:22 PM »
Can you tell me everything you'd need at a range and equipment wise to do it? Can it be done in a field? It might be cheaper to outfit a farm with targets than rent a range.


Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2010, 09:18:29 PM »
I'm really blown away bow how helpful everyone is around here. Thanks actineon.

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2010, 09:20:17 PM »
Speaking of which since the store doesn't ship to Canada does someone want to mail me a QD AQT? It's okay if it's used...

Offline actineon

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2010, 10:16:53 PM »
Glad to help. I could mail you one, but one won't help you very much. You'll need a bunch. When I'm not at an Appleseed, I just use my printer to print up some targets. You're email is hidden from me, but if you PM me with your email address I can send you the PDFs and you can print them yourself.
Hopefully you have access to the instructor's manual and you can study what you need to know from it. (Having targets is just going to frustrate most people if they also don't have access to information on how to shoot. Without knowing the steady hold factors, many people will stop progressing and never get good enough to shoot rifleman.) Alternatively, you can get the PDF's yourself if you have access to the shoot boss section of the forum. They're at http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=7474.msg69154#msg69154

Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2010, 09:52:27 AM »
Actineon, Thanks for all the assistance, very noble of you sir.  That section seems to be off limits... PM inbound.

On a different note, even tho the subject matter is about UFO disclosure I found the message to be represnetative of my personal feelings of frustration at what I see going on around me.
Cheers,
Dave
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Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2010, 11:12:03 AM »
Well so much for that idea... was going to order some targets from Fred's and would've loved to get my hands on the becoming a rifleman's guide but as I was loading up my cart I read this:  "Thanks, Fred PS: Shipping to Canada suspended! Sorry, customs has gotten too quirky, and the costs of packages going back and forth too prohibitive... Late-breaking: No foreign Orders! Sorry, overseas/outside-the-USA-people - because of the reduced warehouse hours, we have not the time to process foreign orders with all the paperwork..."

So not sure now where a guy can get targets, a guide or a sling.... once again thwarted by the almighty boarder.
Cheers,
Dave

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2010, 12:27:35 PM »
troutfinger yeah Canada's going to need to have it's own targets anyways, many ranges up here don't allow you to shoot at humanoid or even remotely humanoid targets. We'll need something with very similar dimensions and the same area to keep it compatible though, and then have some riflemen who shoot consistently try them out to see if the scores end up the same using either. I think it just needs to look a little more geometric is all.

Offline Fred

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2010, 12:51:53 PM »
Well so much for that idea... was going to order some targets from Fred's and would've loved to get my hands on the becoming a rifleman's guide but as I was loading up my cart I read this:  "Thanks, Fred PS: Shipping to Canada suspended! Sorry, customs has gotten too quirky, and the costs of packages going back and forth too prohibitive... Late-breaking: No foreign Orders! Sorry, overseas/outside-the-USA-people - because of the reduced warehouse hours, we have not the time to process foreign orders with all the paperwork..."

So not sure now where a guy can get targets, a guide or a sling.... once again thwarted by the almighty boarder.
Cheers,
Dave

   Dave: If you promise not to tell anyone, and understand UPS charges into Canada (I've heard they are high), go ahead and order some targets - just be sure to add "for Project Appleseed in Canada" to the shopping cart, so the order will be processed...
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

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Offline Fred

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2010, 12:57:18 PM »

    PS: Some instant rifle marksmanship info at http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifle.asp?ITEM=2
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...

Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2010, 01:00:13 PM »
Agree'd however it would be nice to be a qualify for rifleman by appleseed standards first... then work on instructor while trying to figure out the hook for Canada, no?
Just my thoughts at least...

Offline troutfinger

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2010, 01:02:17 PM »
Fred sir, thanks very much... I will get right on that... and for certain I poked around your site and read all your rifleman tips!
And mums the word on the purchase!  ;-)
Cheers,
Dave

Offline Noah A

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Re: Canada hasn't disappeared yet!
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2010, 01:15:48 PM »
Fred is it cool if I order a pack too?

Indeed I think it's very important to have RWVA Instructors of the of high quality up here! And whoever is an instructor up here should also try and visit Appleseeds in the states when they can as well.

Much as if you're setting up an important outpost to guard a territory somewhere you don't send a bunch of random new recruits to do it, you need qualified men who are well trained, problem solvers, and good leaders.