The Marlin 795, an ideal LTR.

[Rundownfid]

Modifying the Marlin 795 for the Appleseed
Or How I made a Liberty Rifle and shot Rifleman


I chose to start with the Marlin 795 for two reasons: I have had a number of Marlins and like them all; and I  read that it was remarkably accurate and reliable for so inexpensive a rifle.  The other obvious choice was the Ruger 10/22, and while I have subsequently seen many of them at Appleseed shoots, I do not regret my choice.

First we might look at what is needed to make a good rifle for an Appleseed shoot.  Reliability seems most important.  Almost nothing will ruin your day at training faster than a rifle that malfunctions.  Secondly the ability to reload it reasonably quickly.  Appleseeds require some rather rapid shooting and a single shot, tube fed, or to a lesser extent, a bolt action, are all hindrances.   Third, accuracy, both inherent and practical.  By inherent I mean what the rifle is capable of shooting under ideal conditions.  More importantly is the concept of practical accuracy, to include good sights , a stock that fits, sling, trigger pull, etc.  I have put the accuracy in third place as 4 MOA is all that is needed to achieve rifleman.  Most off the shelf .22 rifles these days are capable of that level of accuracy.   The Marlin is much more accurate than that.   However, achieving rifleman will require both a reasonably accurate rifle and a shooter who has learned how to use it well in a variety of field positions and under time constraints.

The Marlin 795 is an excellent compromise choice given the above requirements.   It is normally quite reliable, especially if one is careful to clean it thoroughly and then lube it lightly. 

It comes with a ten round magazine, and additional magazines are readily available as the design is shared with Marlin 's recent bolt and auto .22s.  Keeping the rifle fed is pretty easy, except that the magazines are a tight fit and generally have to be pulled out, (more on this later).  As a note the Ruger 10/22 is not all that easy to change magazines on either; although the extensive aftermarket has solutions to that problem, like most others, for a price. 

The 795 is remarkably accurate "out of the box", generally significantly more so than the Ruger, however, in fairness there are a myriad of aftermarket options that can turn the Ruger into a tack driver.  One limiting factor with the Marlin are the open sights the rifle comes with.  In a word, they are impossible.   They need replaced (as do the stock sights on a Ruger).  While the rifle comes with posts to mount detachable swivels, a sling is a bit more complicated than that.  The stock on a Marlin 795 is an inexpensive plastic with a forend that is awfully flexible.  So to get practical accuracy from a Marlin the forend needs stiffened for sling use and the sights need replaced.  Another "issue" with the Marlin is that it is remarkably light, this is great for weaker shooters, but can be a hindrance for others, especially off hand.

That seems to me to be a rather short list of deficiencies for so inexpensive a rifle (the rifle is often advertised at major sporting goods stores for approximately $120, on sale).  Below you will see how I have "fixed" each of the above problems.

Reliability of my rifle was excellent and I have not had to deal with this at all, except to keep the action clean and lightly lubed.  I admit to using CLP although it is my understanding that a dry lube may be better.

Reloading, is simply a matter of buying enough magazines for the intended use.  For Appleseed four are needed if you will be shooting the rapid 40 shot course.  Two will suffice if your event only does regular 10 shot strings of fire.  In either case a spare can't hurt.  From my limited experience "Gander Mountain" has good prices, (http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?r=view&i=402897).  An area I am considering addressing is loosening up the magazine fit so that released magazines fall free; as this would facilitate quicker reloads, and also allow the support hand and elbow to remain in place and aid a prompt return to NPOA.  At this point I have loosened the fit by slightly opening the magazine well by sanding, I don't find this a very appealing prospect and will be looking for a better solution.

For accuracy a sling is a virtual necessity.  Appleseed recommends the GI sling as used on the Garand, etc.  I concur, this is a relatively inexpensive and easy to use sling that really works.  One can normally buy these from Fred.   Yes that Fred, Appleseed's founder, at( http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/acc.asp) , although he was temporarily out recently.  Unfortunately, the forearm of the Marlin is a rather thin and flexible affair.  What I have done on my rifle is to cut a rod and epoxy it into the forearm.  This stiffens the forend up beautifully and also adds a little weight, win-win and very inexpensive.  Another improvement I did to my rifle stock was to foam the remainder of the rod (a large spike) into the hollow butt of the stock.  This eliminates the hollow sound and also adds a little weight to the stock.  I used "Great Stuff" foam which one can get at any home improvement store.  Another practical accuracy aid is a better trigger.  On the Marlin this is actually made of plastic and is, not surprisingly, rather mushy.  I have been studying means to improve the trigger but have not yet done anything but run a stone over the surfaces and grease them.  Actually, the trigger is somewhat better and appears that it may wear itself into adequacy.  Finally, but perhaps most importantly, I replaced the factory open sights with Tech Sites, http://www.tech-sights.com/. These are a huge improvement.  This change alone accounted for most of the enhancement to my Marlin's practical accuracy and usability for Appleseed.  The rear aperture attaches directly to the dovetail scope mounting point and the front sight simply replaces the original front sight, using the existing hole.  Very simple to install and then easy to sight in.  The cost is approx. $75 delivered, and this is money very well spent.  An other option would be a scope or red dot sight.  I am very fond of aperture sights; and shoot them well, so I do not believe there is more practical accuracy with either for me.  However, if you have poor eyesight a scope or red dot might be what you need.

There you pretty much have it, a reliable, accurate rifle out of an inexpensive box.  Add sights, sling and swivels, and stiffen up that stock and voila, an excellent rifle to use at an Appleseed and then use to teach others.  Let's get up off the couch and out to the range.  With the accuracy and the cost of the Marlin 795 there is no excuse not to earn that rifleman's badge.



For Pictures:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rundownfid/sets/72157622843370327/

[1911Ron]

Sounds like a good deal, you have addressed most problems as cheaply as possible. Magazines are tricky on the Ruger the stock ones will for the most part will drop free if you sand all of the molding flash off, however if you put an aftermarket stock on it may change.  The Marlin has metal Magazines and may not drop free because the mag has spread out, or the mag well is not to spec.  I do not feel there is an ideal rifle (it would cost to much) straight from a manufacture, almost all manufacturers try to go cheap (plastic) to keep costs down.  AzRon

[Panama]

I am glad that your 795 works well for you.

My son in law has one that is a total piece of junk. That is being kind. I have a lot of experience with rifles and I have even tinkered with it to get it running right, with no luck at all. getting through a full mag without a problem is rare. Sometimes it doesn't want to feed. We tried different magazines with no luck. Sometimes it fails to extract the spent casing. This is with a clean rifle that is properly lubed. This rifle has gotten so bad, he even quit squirrel hunting with it, and has used my 10/22 when he attended an Appleseed, because he did not trust his 795. We took it to a gun smith a while back. My son in law didn't want to so I paid for it. It cost me $40 to be told there is nothing wrong with this rifle.

I hope this one is a fluke and the others work well for their owners. Personally, I will not ever purchase one myself.

[endpoint]

I own a Marlin 795 and am very happy with it.  I run only CCI Mini Mags through it and have only had one misfeed in perhaps 2000 rounds so maybe try a different brand of ammo.  My brand may or may not work for you.  I have done the mods that Rundownfid did except for stiffening the forend.  Instead I made up some lead shot filler for the chambers under the barrel to add weight and relieve the forend around the barrel to free float it.  I am considering buying a wooden stock to try on it, maybe for a model 60.  Not sure if it would work at all and would definitely need to modify it if it did but it's worth a shot because the original stock is so floppy.

[Rundownfid]

Panama;
Sorry to hear about our rifle, have you contacted Marlin, they should take it back and fix it?  My experience, and I believe most other's, has been the opposite, that is that the 795, and the 60's, are generally accurate and reliable.

As to the fore stock, the spike fix certainly stiffens the stock, also adds weight, (the lead shot could be used to make it as heavy as desired).  I wanted to make an inexpensive but very usable rifle, so I did not want to buy anything extra, like a stock.  As you can see the only major expenses were the  sights and to a much lesser extent magazines.
Sling and swivels are very inexpensive and would be necessary on most any rifle, even very expensive ones.

[SamD]

Endpoint,
You can get wood stocks for the 795 from Numrich.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=1137510A&chrSuperSKU=1137510&MC=&CatID=4082&mySort=1

They actually have 3 different ones at different prices

Sam

[gunville]

All 22 semi's are particular about what you feed them. Some more fussy than others, and that can be said for two of the same model.

If you have one that isn't fussy, cherish it.  Otherwise, find out what it likes.

"Almost nothing will ruin your day at training faster than a rifle that malfunctions."

Come on, that is the point of training! (Hell, add Remington bulk ammo to the regiment for added adventure.)

Does the "great stuff" cause the buttstock to overexpand?  That stuff can leave an awful mess.

A reddot doesn't really help if you have poor eyesight - most have no optics to offer correction; a low-power scope 4x or less (some say 2.5x) is sufficient to clarify your vision.

I see the 795's for $99 or $109  at Dick's all the time - I've never seen a good price for a rifle (or accessories) at Gander. (they are the last place I look.)  Clearly though - the 795 is substantially cheaper than a 10/22 ($170 being the best price I find them at for the least expensive model - blue/18"/wood stock.)

On the Ruger knocks:

- Current production 10/22's have extended mag releases, and the magazine drop free.
- Nobody has ever established the 795 as more accurate than the ruger out of the box. A lot of claims, but no proof.

I'm sure the 795 is a fine rifle, especially for youths, but I'll keep my 10/22... it eats almost any ammo (and I like bargin 22 ammo), has something over 7K rounds through it, and there is an important notch in the wood stock - the one I placed in it when I first scored expert.

I do have my eye out for 70PSS though, for backpacking...)

[AFTERMATH]

I picked mine up; slapped on a set of tech-sights, swivles and a sling; and took it outside.
I then fired one 5 round group; made my sight-adjustments; and drilled a square with 10 rounds...
With the exception of a couple called flyers(still in the black), the group was smaller than a nickle.
I was quite pleased...  I've fired Federal, Winchester, American Eagle, CCI Blazer and my personal favorite CCI Mini-Mags.
All functioned well.  The Blazers, Mini-Mags and Federal all possessed the same accuracy, as well as POI.
Winchester saw groups open up and the the POI dropped 2 moa...  Still about 3-4 moa groups though...
I still prefer the feel of my 10/22; but there's no denying the accuracy and precision of the 795.
The fact that my 795 LTR cost about $123 less than my 10/22 LTR doesn't hurt much...
Sugar on the top:  The 795's trigger is a HOAL better than the 10/22's...
Largest drawback:  Ease of dry-firing.  But it can be addressed; as well as; the second drawback.  The stock.
Both minor in my view as I purchased this rifle specifically as a loaner... I don't plan on putting any extra work into it.

Now, back to work.  We've got a lot of info. on the Marlin allready on the forum.  Just search.
In the mean-time; we've got our Nation to save.

[SamD]

Now, back to work.  We've got a lot of info. on the Marlin allready on the forum.  Just search.
In the mean-time; we've got our Nation to save.

[Rundownfid]

As to the stock expanding from the "Great Stuff", no it didn't swell the stock, but it did make it quiet.  I was actually very careful how and how much foam I added, as this could have been a real cluster...

My rifle shoots almost all full power loads OK, but won't cycle with the Aquila yellow box, a favorite of my Marlin 2000?
I have done considerable testing and most quality ammo shoots much better than I can.  An exception was Winchester Wildcat, did not like, functioned but sprayed??  Federal bulk is surprisingly accurate and 100% reliable.

So far this is a remarkably good rifle, even used it on some squirrels, very satisfactory for that as well.

[endpoint]

Endpoint,
You can get wood stocks for the 795 from Numrich.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=1137510A&chrSuperSKU=1137510&MC=&CatID=4082&mySort=1

They actually have 3 different ones at different prices

Sam

Thanks for the tip!  I'll probably pick one up in a couple weeks

[dart67eb]

I can't say enough about this rifle.  We got ours for $99 on sale at Dicks and got a $20 mail in rebate from Marlin.  This year's rebate is $25.  I added a 4x scope from Walmart for $25, an extra mag for $20 and an M14 sling for $12.  My 14 yr old son shot rifleman, then I used it to shoot rifleman and my 10yr old just shot a 201.  I cut 2 inches off the stock for him- just behind the rear swivel.  The light weight really works for him.  He shot a Crickett 22 single shot prior to this and the transition went well.  In three Appleseeds, we've had one or two malfunctions and we shoot the cheap copper tip Walmart stuff.  I'm looking at one of the Dragunov stocks on ebay for $45 in for when my youngest can handle it. 

[wesm]

Where are you guys getting your extra 795 mags?  I'm not having a whole lot of luck finding them locally or online.  Who has the best price?

[TaosGlock]

It's not so much who has them the cheapest, but  who even has them.
These guys have them for $15.99
http://www.gunsatcost.com/
Sportsman's Guide carries the 15 rounders, but don't know if they are reliable.

I get them locally at Big 5 and they will order them for you.

[Panama]

My son in law got his mags at Gander Mountain. They were about $18 a piece, but they were the only ones in the area that had them in stock.

[henschman]

I like 795s, and thought about getting one, but there are a couple things that I think makes them not exactly ideal for Appleseed.  One is their weight.  A LTR is supposed to simulate a battle rifle, and these don't feel anything like one.  There is no doubt that you are holding a .22 when you are shooting it.  Also, the mags... like others have said, they don't drop free, and they also stick down out of the stock so its harder to get your elbow under the rifle.  Not the biggest deal in the world, but there are other rifles that don't have that issue.  On the ones I've shot, I've never noticed the handguard wanting to flex, but I don't doubt it as light as the stock is.  The handguard is incredibly narrow... nothing like a battle rifle.  Its so tiny that when your support hand is relaxed, your fingers want to curl up over the barrel and block your sight picture.

I think the best rifle for an LTR is a Remington 597.  It feels more like a real, full-sized rifle.  It has mags that are flush with the stock, and generally drop free.  The Marlin Tech Sights will install on a Remington, using a little longer screw for the front sight.  They are almost as cheap as a Marlin, and are quite a bit cheaper than a 10/22... I've seen them in the $130 range on up to $150.  The $150 ones usually come with a scope, which is OK but comes on some high rings that require you to build up the stock to get proper cheek weld.  It doesn't have the tricky bolt release/mag release issues of the 10/22, which are frustrating for people who aren't used to the rifle.  Plus, it doesn't use those rotary mags that you have to take apart and clean or they jam up.  The Remington also has a much better factory trigger than the newer Rugers do (the old ones have great triggers). 

When I built my 2 current LTRs, I bought Rugers because that's what was used at my first Appleseed and that's what most people on here used.  However, I would go with 597s if I had it to do again, and they will be what I use when I buy more LTRs. 

[SkyHawk]

I want to build up a couple more LTR's and considered the 795 but found out you can't dry fire them like you can a 10/22.  How about the Rem 597?  Not really familiar with it but if it feels more like a battle rifle that is a good thing.  The 10/22 is a good rifle but wouldn't say it is great.  Still need to modify it's mag eject and trigger assemblies.  I'd like to know more about other AS'ers experiences are with the Rem 597 and will check the board for more info.

[dart67eb]

I got the 795 magazines at Bass Pro for $20.  I'm going to look into the remington for myself but the 795 works great for young kids.

[Robbvious]

It's not so much who has them the cheapest, but  who even has them.
These guys have them for $15.99
http://www.gunsatcost.com/
Sportsman's Guide carries the 15 rounders, but don't know if they are reliable.

I get them locally at Big 5 and they will order them for you.

Those "National Magazine" 15 round mags DO NOT WORK with the 795.  Not even kinda.

I have the stock from SamD's post on my 795 and it is a drop in fit, and really transforms what is already a really good rifle into a great rifle, as countless squirrels and rabbits have had the misfortune to discover.  This is the best MOS (minute of squirrel) rifle I've ever owned, bar none.  The 10/22 doesn't even compare in accuracy or reliability.

Now if I could just find an inexpensive, drop in, high comb stock for my Savage 93R17F, I'd be a happy Rifleman...

[Another D.O.M.]

I bought two 795s recently, one for myself and one for my wife.  Have yet to even sight them in (that should be this Sunday).

I submitted a rebate coupon for each, in separate envelopes two days apart.  I received a post card from the not-so-good folks at Marlin today informing me that my entry "exceeded the maximum quantity allowed" - whatever that is supposed to mean.  I submitted one coupon for one rifle - how that 'exceeds the maximum quantity allowed" should be a mystery to any rational person.  I guess what I'm saying is, don't hold your breath waiting for that rebate check to arrive...

I purchased extra magazines for both rifles.  The first three I ordered from Bud's Gun Shop (http://www.budsgunshop.com); however, they were no longer in stock when I attempted to purchase three more.  The second set of three I ordered from Marlin Firearms Source (http://www.marlinfirearmssource.com/item/5984_Marlin_Magazines_Marlin_707135_Magazine.aspx) @ $15.99 each.

By all accounts this rifle is more accurate out of the box than the Ruger 10/22; and they are not nearly as finicky about what you feed them.  Mine is scoped and I've added Tech Sights to the wife's.  I will admit that holding this rifle is almost like holding nothing at all - it is very lightweight.  As to the issue of the magazine sticking out of the bottom, I have not yet seen a 'real battle rifle' that did not have a mag sticking out of the bottom.  As to the matter of the mag not dropping free when the release is pushed, it absolutely does not - you have to fight it out of the well!  On the other hand, an empty mag from the typical battle rifle weighs almost as much, empty, as this entire rifle does.  I think the main thing to consider, however, is cost for quality.  The 795 cost nearly 1/2 what the Ruger does, and you get a whole lot more without having to buy modifications to add on to it.  In today's economy, that speaks volumes.

[kentuckyjam]

As I've said before, I really like mine and everyone that uses it likes it as well.  My hubby is talking me into making my own wood stock.    We will see how that goes.  The synthetic stock is a little long for me, I can't wear my shooting jacket with it.

If you file down the mags a little, they will fall out if it's not scorching hot out.
The only thing to watch is the firing pin when dry firing.  Hubby has replaced his and got an extra for mine.

[Another D.O.M.]

That's good to know about dry-firing - thanks.

Midway has Pachmayr polymer snap caps (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=521044); and I've also seen suggestions that you can just reuse empty casings for the same purpose.  Certainly plenty of those lying around after an Appleseed...

[nmmi9100]

Rebate terms clearly stated 1 rebate per household (per address).  So in this case, Marlin is in the right.  They'll probably only send you one rebate.  May not send you any due to you not following the specific instructions in the rebate.  I've found that where rebates are concerned, it's best to read the fine print.

Keep your powder dry!

-David
Edgewood, NM

I bought two 795s recently, one for myself and one for my wife.  Have yet to even sight them in (that should be this Sunday).

I submitted a rebate coupon for each, in separate envelopes two days apart.  I received a post card from the not-so-good folks at Marlin today informing me that my entry "exceeded the maximum quantity allowed" - whatever that is supposed to mean.  I submitted one coupon for one rifle - how that 'exceeds the maximum quantity allowed" should be a mystery to any rational person.  I guess what I'm saying is, don't hold your breath waiting for that rebate check to arrive...

I purchased extra magazines for both rifles.  The first three I ordered from Bud's Gun Shop (http://www.budsgunshop.com); however, they were no longer in stock when I attempted to purchase three more.  The second set of three I ordered from Marlin Firearms Source (http://www.marlinfirearmssource.com/item/5984_Marlin_Magazines_Marlin_707135_Magazine.aspx) @ $15.99 each.

By all accounts this rifle is more accurate out of the box than the Ruger 10/22; and they are not nearly as finicky about what you feed them.  Mine is scoped and I've added Tech Sights to the wife's.  I will admit that holding this rifle is almost like holding nothing at all - it is very lightweight.  As to the issue of the magazine sticking out of the bottom, I have not yet seen a 'real battle rifle' that did not have a mag sticking out of the bottom.  As to the matter of the mag not dropping free when the release is pushed, it absolutely does not - you have to fight it out of the well!  On the other hand, an empty mag from the typical battle rifle weighs almost as much, empty, as this entire rifle does.  I think the main thing to consider, however, is cost for quality.  The 795 cost nearly 1/2 what the Ruger does, and you get a whole lot more without having to buy modifications to add on to it.  In today's economy, that speaks volumes.

[Another D.O.M.]

Rebate terms clearly stated 1 rebate per household (per address).  So in this case, Marlin is in the right.  They'll probably only send you one rebate.  May not send you any due to you not following the specific instructions in the rebate.  I've found that where rebates are concerned, it's best to read the fine print.

Keep your powder dry!

-David
Edgewood, NM

Yup - and when I went back and blew the coupon up to nearly 200% I could actually read that.  Clearly my mistake.  Unfortunately (at least for me) reading the fine print can be a tedious experience.  Kind of like having to press '1' for my native language in my own country.  I guess I'm just gettin' old and ornery...

[wesm]

I made the same mistake... Bought two, one for each of my kids, and sent off two rebates. I got online a few days ago to check the status, and it looked like it was only giving me credit for one, it had the other one listed as "Duplicate".   

[Another D.O.M.]

The way I look at it, even without a rebate the rifle is still significantly less expensive than the competition, and by many accounts superior in quality & dependability (I can't vouch for that yet).  I'll get over the disappointment after a few hundred rounds, I'm sure...

And kyjam , I'd love to see your hand-made wooden stock!  Post some pictures when you've finished it please...

[socalserf]

I own a Marlin 795 and am very happy with it.  I run only CCI Mini Mags through it and have only had one misfeed in perhaps 2000 rounds so maybe try a different brand of ammo.  My brand may or may not work for you.  I have done the mods that Rundownfid did except for stiffening the forend.  Instead I made up some lead shot filler for the chambers under the barrel to add weight and relieve the forend around the barrel to free float it.  I am considering buying a wooden stock to try on it, maybe for a model 60.  Not sure if it would work at all and would definitely need to modify it if it did but it's worth a shot because the original stock is so floppy.

Does anyone make youth stocks/adjustable stocks for the 795?
Links?
A question for Endpoint, did you cut down a synthetic stock or a wood one?

[GoldFish]

Does anybody here know exactly what the differences are between the Marlin 795 and the Savage 64?  (They look almost identical.)  I have a Savage 64 (rifle I shot Rifleman with), and love it, but after about 75-100 rounds withOUT performing a quick action and barrel cleaning, it starts to misfire and not eject sometimes.  Do owners of the 795 have these same problems?   

A question for Endpoint, did you cut down a synthetic stock or a wood one?

I know that this is not a question to me, but the SAVAGE stock is hollow and would not be able to be cut down.  Again, I don't know what the differences are between the rifles, so I don't know if the Marlin has a similar stock or not. 

---GoldFish

[socalserf]

Yeah, I kinda expected that it was hollow.
Which would bring up the next question, could it take fiberglass?

[dart67eb]

I cut down a 795 right behind the aft swivel stud and duct taped the end.  It works.  Also, my 795 doesn't seem to jam, ever, using the federal copper jacketed bulk ammo.