Ceiner AR concerns

[gunville]

I was about ready to give up on the Ceiner until I tried the blazer.

I could be guessing and dreaming but it seemed to me the plated ones push once when the leave the ceiner and once the barrel. The soft bullets seem to go through easier.

I know that sounds wacky  but having tried rem golden bullet and winchester valuepack (both which shoot terrific in my 10/22) the blazers actually "feel" different.

I also cleaned the rails a bit and lubed with graphite.

[henschman]

my buddy's CMMG conversion loves Blazer too, as well as Aguilla.  It shoots good too... he made rifleman on the first day of his first appleseed with that conversion in his DPMS 16" shooting Blazer, with a really cheapo .22 lr scope.  If I had a .223 AR, I'd definitely buy one of those conversions. 

[ksuguy]

I had a nice diagram/description on the issue and what I'd done but it doesn't look like I posted it here (at least my first search didn't show it but searches here can be iffy) and I lost my hard drive earlier this year and all the work I'd put into diagrams, training materials, etc.   Just haven't had the time to try to redo all of them either, even if I could remember everything I'd done.

Here is your old diagram/description: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5509.0

I'm going to try what you did and see if it fixes my problems.   I've got a Model 1 dedicated upper, and it uses a bolt that is similar to the Ceiner.  I'm also using the black dog magazines.  I just haven't been able to get the thing to function right.  Occasionally I'm able to fire off strings of 2-3 shots without a jam, but most of the time it jams after every shot.   Basically it fires, ejects, and then tries to load the next round, but the bolt doesn't go all the way back into battery. 

[Geddys Uncle]

I had a nice diagram/description on the issue and what I'd done but it doesn't look like I posted it here (at least my first search didn't show it but searches here can be iffy) and I lost my hard drive earlier this year and all the work I'd put into diagrams, training materials, etc.   Just haven't had the time to try to redo all of them either, even if I could remember everything I'd done.

Here is your old diagram/description: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5509.0

I'm going to try what you did and see if it fixes my problems.   I've got a Model 1 dedicated upper, and it uses a bolt that is similar to the Ceiner.  I'm also using the black dog magazines.  I just haven't been able to get the thing to function right.  Occasionally I'm able to fire off strings of 2-3 shots without a jam, but most of the time it jams after every shot.   Basically it fires, ejects, and then tries to load the next round, but the bolt doesn't go all the way back into battery. 

sounds exactly like mag-drag on the bottom of the bolt, as described a few posts up....did I just invent a new LTR vocabulary word? mag-drag?

[ksuguy]

I hope that's it.  This thing has been driving me nuts for months.   I was wanting to take it to the Appleseed back in April, but I couldn't get it functioning.  Had to go out and buy a 10/22 to bring instead.   

[EEL]

HAD to go out and buy a 10/22?  Like that's a bad thing ?          

[ksuguy]

There are worse things than buying another gun I guess.  

[SamD]

If you think you may have twist issues, try a box of SSS and see if that won't settle it down.
Personally Id find a ratty barrel and line it with a proper 1-16 if I was going to use a LR upper.

[Geddys Uncle]

If you think you may have twist issues, try a box of SSS and see if that won't settle it down.
Personally Id find a ratty barrel and line it with a proper 1-16 if I was going to use a LR upper.

can ya DO that?  how? get nasty barrel, have it over-bored, and then a rifled liner installed?  Would that be more economical than aoff the shelf/off the internet dedicated 22LR upper?

[Old Dog]

http://www.gunnyssurplus.com/m16a1-up.html

These are M16A1 upper (like the basic Tech Sights) with no bolt or charging handle and a 1 in 12" twist.  Not sure how they compare in price to a dedicated upper.

[ksuguy]

Well tried working on the magazines, but still no luck.  I did notice that there were some noticeable brass marks all along the raised center part of the bolt.  So basically it looks like the front is pushing the round out, and then the rest of it is dragging along the top of the next round in the mag.   Is this normal? 

I'm thinking maybe I should just take a loss and sell this thing.  It's just been a hassle ever since I bought it. 

[gunville]

Not normal.

The M1S bolt looks the same as the ceiner, except it doesn't have the 22lr-to-223 chamber adapter - since the upper is already chambered .22lr that would make sense.

Have you tried it on a different lower? 

The things I can think of that would interfere with the travel would be the BHO (trying a different lower would eliminate this) or perhaps the charging handle is bent or something? On the bolt carrier itself, check if the rails are crunched in, or maybe not on the center axis. (On the ceiner these rails just sort of snap in - they are not substantially supported.)

If it is the mag interface, try some tape on the top of a "ar" part of the mag to lower where it exposes the feed lips.

If it extracts (something my ceiner never does reliably) how well does it run if you shuck rounds through it manually?

[ksuguy]

Yes, I've tried two different lowers,  multiple charging handles, lots of different magazines,  installing the low powered fire control springs they provided,  several different brands of ammo (including the ones they said they test fired it with).    Nothing seems to work.   

If I can't get it functioning soon, I think I might just see if somebody else wants it and then spend the money on another CMP garand or some ammo.   

[Geddys Uncle]

http://www.gunnyssurplus.com/m16a1-up.html

These are M16A1 upper (like the basic Tech Sights) with no bolt or charging handle and a 1 in 12" twist.  Not sure how they compare in price to a dedicated upper.

considerably less than the ones I'm seeing in one of Shotgun News's advertizers....they've got some variety, ranging from $490-$630 depending on setup details...they do come w/ MIS bolt carrier assemblies and charging handles....I think that if somebody's not already got a Ciener, and not already got an old-twist-rate upper, that'd be the simplest way for him, but, in my present situation, the link you posted would be the way to go....but, I've already got RJ's vintage upper, and, oddly enough, the carbine-length 1:9 seemed the best of the 3....even if it is pink.  

[Daniel]

I picked up a Ceiner for my AR last fall and haven't really used it much - really just plinking.

The otherday I took it out and brought it along with my 10/22 to the range, thinking I could do something serious with it. <

After quick sighting, I did "rapid" AQT's with both rifles. I was perplexed that the 10/22 target was so much cleaner than the AR - scoring 220 with the 10/22, and 181 with the AR.  I had expected some delta - but the mantra is "pick up any rack grade rifle" and this puppy is a snuff above rack-grade - 39 pts didn't make sense.

I didn't understand the delta. The 10/22 groups were pretty consistent; the AR/Ceiner "groups" were slightly broader - which I expect, but mixed in were several flyers, mostly slightly up and left or right - I didn't call these.

I figured I was just rusty with the AR (I've been conserving my .223) so I put up some 1" squares for practice. It was the same thing - groups with occasional flyers. It's almost like shooting with loose sites, but everything is rock, I triple checked.

Frustrated, I did a very un-rifleman thing - I used my range bag as a support and shot off the bench (no sling.) Still the same characteristics - a couple of accurate shots and a couple of flyers.

I went home confused, and cleaned the AR and the Ceiner.

Today, I again packed the ceiner and the AR, packed up some .223 so I could test with that as well, and returned to the range. I repeated the 1" square experiment - with the same resulting flyers. I figured I'd shot the .223 and if that went well convict the ceiner, but unfortunately some fool  forgot to pack mags. (clown bat deserved here.  )

I probably won't get to the range until Sunday - with mags and .223, but I was wondering if anyone have ideas on this?

The Ciener Kits are utilizing the same rifling as the .223, whereas the 10/22 was designed for the .22LR cartridge.  The .22Lr likes a twist rate of about 1X14- 1X16 (If my memory is correct.)  The .223 barrel is SLIGHTLY larger ( a couple of thousandths at the most), but the real issue is the rate of twist.  I would guess that you have a 1X9, so you have about half of the twist that you need. 

Having said all that, I think that you should just shoot it A LOT MORE.  Break it in really well, and then see how it does.  I have seen folks shoot EXCELLENT Rifleman scores with a Ceiner kit, so I think that while the kit does have its own problems, that you just need to break it in before casting judgement.

[gunville]

Rifleman_NH,

Thanks for the input. The problem I had was the ammo - it liked the lead bullet of Blazer over the plated Rem GB's and winchester valuepack.

With the blazer it shoots groups more than tight enough for AQT's. 

I only have one 10rd mag - so right now I don't shoot AQT's with it.  I was shooting AQT's with 8rds loaded, then manually reloading 2rd on the clock, but RF AQT's are straight out.  (NYS mag restricition means only 10rd, and I can't justify $30 each for them right now.)

[Daniel]

Glad that you figured it out....
They can be a real hassle that way.........
Have you tried any Federal Bulk Pack?  Most guns eat that stuff...

[Geddys Uncle]

thinkin' backwards on the twist rate, there NH....

a guy shooting .22LR (optimum about 1:16) thru a 1:9 barrel has TWICE the rate, not HALF the rate....it took a fun early-M-16 history article for me to finally learn/figure out what "overstabilized" means...it meant that the bullet was more yaw-resistant on impact, and that the "stopping power" was affected...

long as they'll fly nice for 82feet that's all we need for A-S shoots

[gunville]

On my ceiner I didn't have much luck with anything copper clad, including the federal bulk pack - which is actually what I meant in my last post, though I said Winchester - never tried winchester.

The 10/22 loves the federal though (loves the rem golden bullet and the blazer as well.  All my unscientifc experiments to figure if one is better than the other have been inconclusive, except (1) more duds in Rem, (2) an occasional stove pipe federal. but I digress - nothing like hijacking your own post.)

The speed is also an issue with twist rate - remember the 22LR is maybe 1050 fps vs. the 3300ish fps of .223.

I understood one concern of too fast a turn rate is that a bullet would generate too much cetrifugal force and pull itself apart. I've never seen that and so I offer that with a grain of salt.  Nothing shot on my 1:9 shows any issue with the blazer that would lead me to think this is whats going on - it was just occasional flyers.

Also - I think it had issues between leaving the ceiner chamber and reaching the rifling and that may be what gave issue. More of a hunch on what I was feeling.

[Geddys Uncle]

I'm suspecting that there mightn't ever be a situation where a bullet actually undergoes a flywheel explosion due to excessive RPMs

There's a company called DRT that makes frangible centerfire rifle ammo that holds together thru non-organic obstacles, yet disintegrates into high-velocity powder upon "soft" contact...rather than a "wound channel" it creates about a 5"x5" hemispherical crater, earning the company it's nickname "Dead Right There"

If a bullet made out of pressed powder won't spin apart, a normal one won't either.

Just for fun, we can convert twist and velocity to RPMs (even though no rifle bullet has a 60-second hangtime)

1:12 x ft/second x 60 would yield the RPMs for a vintage M16 barrel

1: smaller than twelve would spin faster
1: larger than twelve ...slower...asuming all the veloicities stayed the same ...you can play around with the math

[Old Dog]

a lot of years ago there were special varmint bullets to reload for .22 centerfire cartridges.  Seems like Hornady called theirs "SX" for super explosive and Sierra called theirs "blitz" bullets.  In the reloading manuals of that day there were warnings not to fire those bullets in the Ruger Mini14's or you risked the bullet disentegrating in flight.

Those bullets had thinner than normal jackets to all the slower moving .22 Hornet, .222 Rem., etc. to achieve bullet expansion similar to the .22-250's and 220 Swifts when the bullet hit the intended varmint.

I used to use those bullets in my Rem. M700 varmint special (1 turn in 12").  Being a "prove it" kind of guy I shot some in my Mini14 one day.  Not all the bullets made it to the target 100 yds. away.  Even the ones that did make it left a visible contrail of vapor (we assumed it to be lead and jacket material that was being thrown off the bullets as they approached an rpm limit that tore some of the bullets apart) in a slighly spiral pattern all the way to the target.

.223's and varmint bullets are not .22 rimfires.  There's no comparison velocity wise.  Standard .22 bullets for centerfire rifles should not be coming apart in mid air due to bullet rpm (though there is a report on arfcom about 4 of 10 Colt AR's having bullet disentegration problems with heavy 69 grain bullets during a training class awhile back).

[SamD]

Look at a thrown football for an example of what is happening. Immediately it leaves the fingers, it begins to "wobble" because it is over stabilized.  As it looses spin due to friction it begins to "go to sleep" that is, to loose it's yaw and spin about it's true longitudinal axis. If the over stabilization is too extreme it may never "go to sleep".

The amount of twist necessary to stabilize a bullet is dependent on the LENGTH of the bullet not the weight. Look for long for their weight bullets when selecting something to shoot in a fast twist conversion unit.   If you want a shocker, try a few of rounds of SSS which is almost the correct length to stabilize in a 1-9 twist barrel. They almost invariably shoot well (maybe that's why I build rifles for that ammo with 1-9 Kreiger barrels).
If you can find an old A1 or A nothing upper you will generally get better performance with rimfire. the 1-12 twist is a lot closer to right for the LR ammo.

You can have the same thing happen in centerfire rounds. m193 is hopelessly overstabilized in 1-9 and 1-7 barrels and seldom performs decently.  My 257 delivers relatively lousy groups of 1 3/8" at 100 yards but at 200 those bullets have "gone to sleep" and will group around 3/4".

[Geddys Uncle]

sam d just described and explained something I'd seen happen, but never knew why...large groups near, and smaller groups far

and your comment about the SSS's swings right back around to a question I'd had, either on this thread,  or another, about using'em in a faster-twist barrel, due to being in the same weight(length) neighborhood as the way-faster typical .223

still need to find some short-case/60gr ammo to shoot for groups in the two twists I've got @ my disposal.