Rifle and rail selection for 25M

[thebestpriusdriver]

Admins, if I am posting this in the wrong section then please move me to the correct section.

I have a Ruger American Gen 2 rifle in .308 that I plan to use for the upcoming Appleseed 25M event in Everett WA (Halloween weekend). I have put a Leupold VX3-HD on via the stock picatinny rail.

The "How to Prepare" PDF for the 25M event says:

> The factory-rail is usually not suitable for the type of shooting we do in Appleseed. We recommend a cantilevered rail, which allows you to mount the scope forward enough to prevent neck strain while shooting.

Though an exact proper length is not mentioned. The PDF mentions a 10/22, and the EGW cantilevered rail for the 10/22 has an OAL of 6.276". The stock rail on my American Gen 2 is 6" in OAL. EGW sells a cantilevered rail for the American (Gen 1) that is 7.064" in OAL, but I'm not sure that if the extra 1" is necessary, nor am I certain that the Gen 1 rail will fit on the Gen 2.

I do have a 10/22 takedown with a Vortex scope, but this is a different rifle than the 10/22 and has a different cantilevered rail with only 4.645" in OAL. This is really a lot less than the 10/22 option. From what I can find online, it looks like this is the length of the 10/22 stock rail, which the guide specifically says is insufficient.

I'm curious for any guidance from experts on this forum as to whether I should expect to need the extended length rail for the American or if I should get the 10/22-length rail for the 10/22 takedown.

The only other alternative for me would be to use an older AR-15 in 5.56, which has a rail going all the way to the front.

[Zorak]

I'd avoid getting hung up on inch measurements, and think instead about whether you can get good sight alignment in prone with that .308. Have you fired the rifle in the prone position? If so, have you had any trouble with eye relief?

[thebestpriusdriver]

Thanks for the perspective Zorak. I've only fired the .308 from a sitting position, and I had to move the scope all the way back to get a good sight alignment. Any forward and the picture was shrinking when I zoomed in.

Right now Central Washington has outdoor shooting bans due to wildfires, but these should be lifted well before the clinic and I'll check things out then. Thanks much for your thoughtful advice.

[mmirate]

You can use your AR-15 for a comparison. On that rifle the ideal setup for shooting prone like we teach is called "nose to charging handle". So for a reasonable starting point, you can place the rifles side by side, see where your nose would be relative to the AR's trigger, and adjust your Ruger's scope accordingly.

[12 Gage]

I'd probably think twice about using the bolt action .308 for a standard 25M Appleseed, even if you can get the scope position sorted out.

It can absolutely be done with a bolt gun, but Appleseed's timed stages and position changes are much easier with a semiautomatic rifle. Working a bolt from prone without breaking position, rebuilding your natural point of aim, and getting back on target repeatedly adds a lot of difficulty that has nothing to do with the marksmanship fundamentals you are actually there to learn.

The .308 also gives you substantially more recoil, muzzle blast, ammunition cost, and fatigue for basically no benefit at 25 meters. Over the course of an Appleseed weekend, you are going to fire a lot of rounds, and a lightweight Ruger American in .308 is going to be much less pleasant than a .22 LR or 5.56 rifle.

For a first Appleseed, I would strongly lean toward the 10/22 if you can get the scope mounted with comfortable eye relief in prone. That is basically the ideal rifle for learning the course. If the Takedown's rail arrangement makes that impossible, I would probably use the AR-15 before the .308. The AR gives you plenty of rail space, mild recoil, easy magazine changes, and semiautomatic operation, so you can concentrate on sling use, natural point of aim, breathing, trigger control, and the timed course itself.

The .308 could be a fun challenge once you already know the Appleseed course, but for a first event I think it introduces several unnecessary complications.

[eaglescouter]

The US Army designed this course of fire for the bolt action 1903 Springfield rifle in 30-06, then modified the load to 2/8 to accommodate the M1 Garand.

Can the Appleseed rifle program be run with a magazine fed bolt action 308?
Answer:  ABSOLUTELY

There is nothing magic about the 10/22 as a rifle platform for Appleseed (after it is converted into a Liberty Training Rifle), other than lower cost per round and lower recoil (and perhaps size/weight for those with insufficient strength).

[Maine.Dist.Rifleman]

Shooting from position with a sling, puts different requirements on how the rifle is set up. The scope needs to be a lot further forward, that's why they recommend the extended rail and mounting the scope forward of where a normal hunting scope would be mounted. If you look at the rails on a SCOUT version, you can forward mount the scope so you get enough clearance so you don't get scope eye. Neck strain would be the least of my worries.

Also a six and a half or 7 pound .308 is going to be punishing even with a shooting coat. I'd recommend a 10/22 for a first go at it.

[thebestpriusdriver]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. Right now I'm a pretty terrible shot, it's embarrassing when I go to the range with my friends. That's a large part of why I am going to an AS clinic in the first place. I think that I should take every advantage that I can get here and stick with the 10/22. Given that mine is a takedown, I've read online that the sling tension can distort the barrel enough to throw off an accurate shot, though it seems like maybe this isn't as impactful at 25 meters. For this, some people go with a few adapters to mount the optic onto the barrel itself.

If I were to hypothetically pick up a non-TD 10/22, are the holes on the front and rear of the model 32000 (https://ruger.com/products/1022Standard/specSheets/32000.html) appropriate for the swivel mounts that the course requires, or would I need to screw in the swivel adapter kit anyways?

[floydf]

That looks like a decent rifle at a good price.  One big thing is the BX trigger.  The BX trigger is a major upgrade over the stock Ruger trigger, which can be really frustrating.

Looks like standard push button sling mounts will work both fore and aft.

Don't take it to the Appleseed with the stock Ruger sights.  That makes for a seriously frustrating weekend.   Either mount Tech sites fore and aft. or put a rail on it and mount a red dot.  For tech sights, the TSR200 has elevation adjustment on the rear sight which is a LOT easier to work with.

If you get a red dot, make sure to get a 3 MOA dot, not the 6 MOA dot.  My practice rifles run $200 Vortex dots in 3 MOA, and they provide a very good practice environment on the AQT.

My suggestions, at any rate.

[12 Gage]

If I were going to get a brand new 10/22, this is the model I would get:

https://ruger.com/products/1022250th/specSheets/32039.html



If you want to use irons, get these sights:

https://www.tech-sights.com/product/mini200c-sight-for-the-ruger-collector-10-22-rifles/

If you want to use a scope, the rail extends farther forward and you get a factory option to install a higher cheek piece.

https://shopruger.com/Rugerreg-Stock-Module-High-Comb_Standard-Pull/productinfo/90432/

[Charles McKinley]

How I set up Ruger takedown rifles. 
Twist the halves open but do not take them apart.
Tighten the barrel nut until you cannot close the rifle.
Loosen one click at a time until you can close the rifle.
Do not take them apart rifle down until after the event.

The 10/22 and PCC takedowns are both more than capable of shooting score.  If you see groups opening up the nut is probably loosening.  The above instructions will prevent that.  A loose barrel nut can create an 8 inch "pattern" at 25 meters.

[Dmthomp32]

How I set up Ruger takedown rifles. 
Twist the halves open but do not take them apart.
Tighten the barrel nut until you cannot close the rifle.
Loosen one click at a time until you can close the rifle.
Do not take them apart rifle down until after the event.

The 10/22 and PCC takedowns are both more than capable of shooting score.  If you see groups opening up the nut is probably loosening.  The above instructions will prevent that.  A loose barrel nut can create an 8 inch "pattern" at 25 meters.

I believe this to be good advice. I've seen several folks bring takedown 10-22's to the line and none have been able to shoot accurately enough to score rifleman (or it was the users?) but small groups were not forthcoming. If you are going the route of the takedown rifle, test out this advice at 25-28 yards and see what kind of groups you can achieve from a bench position. This will tell you if you and the rifle are capable, your goal should be 5 rounds into a 1" square. Using a .22 overall will be much better for your first attempt, especially if you are lacking fundamentals at the moment. Additionally the money you save from not shooting .308 will provide you with enough cash to buy a new .22 rifle and ammo if the take-down doesn't work out! My recommendation is a Tippmann M4, however a 10-22 or Marlin 795 work great as well. Lots of good advice in this thread!