Anyone Struggling With Iron Sights?

[USNAVYCHIEF(Ret)]

A post from another forum, that is very appropriate for in here.  I posted this a month or so ago.

My daughter is preparing for a Small Arms Firing School (SAFS) match, where she can earn 4 of the required 30 leg points towards the Distinguished Rifle Badge. Her service rifle (AR15) that she competes with is a scoped rifle within the rules as defined by the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). However, all SAFS matches require that competitors use CMP provided rifles, magazines and ammunition. The rifles provided are "iron sight" rifles.

Shannon has done well in her journey to date in learning to master her scoped service rifle, but knowing that she has a SAFS match this coming weekend, I opted as her coach, to get her dry firing with the iron sights this week on our Olympic Electronic training system (the SCATT system).

It is very hot and humid now in Maryland, so you can imagine what it feels like in my garage, with the heat and humidity. Now add to that a 10 year old girl, and all the shooting gear, hat, sweatshirt, shooting coat etc! It makes for a miserable equation for sure!

BUT....we believe that if we train in tough conditions, we won't let adverse conditions get in our mental game during real matches.

OK, a bit on me, and Appleseed (AS) with Iron Sights. I recall my first AS event, I went into the event with the utmost confidence that I would absolutely destroy any standing records in the project. I mean, 25 yards with a rimfire!?! Piece of cake! LOL...I was sorely mistaken.

My rifle was equipped with the tech sights. I'll also add that it had been close to 20 years since I was in prone, seated or the standing position. I was primarily a recreational "From the bench" type shooter.

The instructor took us thru the 6 steps of firing a shot, and I glossed over the SIGHT PICTURE and SIGHT ALIGNMENT and FRONT SIGHT FOCUS parts, and pretty much all of the 6 steps.

My groups were likely around 8-9 MOA in size! What a demoralizing weekend that was!

Not to be deterred, that Sunday evening I registered again for another event with a friend, it had to be a fluke....I must have been dehydrated, we will "Slay it" next event.

That scenario repeated itself over the course of at least 5 full weekend AS events. We were both ABSOLUTELY DEMORALIZED! LOL

I swapped to a scoped 10/22 on the 5th or 6th event and "whalla" I magically Earned Rifleman.

So, IT HAD TO BE that my eyesight was not good enough anymore for iron sights. That is what I learned from the above.

Fast Forward a few months later, and I took up NRA and CMP High Power Rifle, this was prior to the rule change allowing optics. So, I had to use iron sights.

Ahhh, yes the above scenario of "me sucking bad" replayed themselves, but....I saw people in their late 60s and even 70s shooting iron sights well. They had assistance of a rear diopter, or shooting glasses with a prescription to allow a better focus on the front sight, and they were shooting well.

SIGHT ALIGNMENT and FRONT SIGHT FOCUS!

I started to adopt the front sight focus thing. I recall my friend at our first AS events, Yelling loud with his earpro in **makes him yell even louder** "I Can't See the F'ing Target"! LOL, We STILL laugh about that.

YOU ARE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO SEE THE TARGET, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR EYE TO SEE TWO (or THREE) THINGS AT THE SAME TIME!!

I call it the LEAP OF FAITH!

There I am at 600 yards, 6 o clock hold. I:
- Establish cheek weld (gives automatic SIGHT ALIGNMENT if done well)
- Establish Sight Picture (6 o clock)
- Inhale (while looking at target and front sight, But TARGET at this point)
- Exhale (while looking at target and front sight, But TARGET at this point)
INSPECT: Is my Natural Point Of Aim (NPA) on my target at 6 o clock in the aiming black? If not, start over, if yes...continue
- Respiratory pause
- Notice how front sight sits at the bottom of the aiming black
- INSPECT: Are my sights aligned (front sight perfectly centered in rear peep)? If Not, start over, if yes continue
- FOCUS ALL MY ENERGY AND MY VISION ON THE TIP OF MY FRONT SIGHT
- Take first stage of trigger to the wall
- INSPECT AGAIN: Are my sights aligned (front sight perfectly centered in rear peep)? If Not, start over, if yes continue
- FOCUS ALL MY ENERGY AND MY VISION ON THE TIP OF MY FRONT SIGHT
- Take in second stage of the trigger while INTENTLY STARING AT THE FRONT SIGHT
- Follow THRU, do not breathe, do not shift vision from front sight, mentally note where the front sight was when the shot went off

Repeat over and over till match is complete.

Sounds so simple huh?

Transitioning from scopes to irons is not hard, provided the marksman has the fundamentals down. Then we simply need to only add SIGHT ALIGNMENT and FRONT SIGHT FOCUS into the equation.

My daughter went from missing the target yesterday to shooting 10's in about an hour. But that hour was BRUTAL! LOL

What did she say, over and over? "I CANNOT SEE THE TARGET, IT IS BLURRY, I SEE 2 TARGETS", LOL......

She figured it out and so did I eventually.

If you are struggling with iron sights, try a scoped rifle. Do you shoot better?

If so it is likely because you are slacking on front sight focus. You do not BELIEVE! LOL...it is a leap of faith!

Hope this helps.....

I'll also add that degrading reading vision will hinder performance on iron sights....BUT

Not to an extent (or in very rare cases) that one would not be able to qualify on the generously large AS targets.

It may reduce a score, but should not prevent the average person, whether or not they need a vision correction, from scoring a 210 on the 25M AQT.

In High Power Rifle, what I struggled with vision wise was a reputable "hold" on the target. The target was so blurry and my vision not good enough, to hold center of mass, or 6 o clock. I still was in the aiming black with my shots though, in spite of my vision. I could easily hold the 8 ring at 600 yards.

I could have tried one more hold, a frame hold, but by that time the scopes came out as legal for use for us, and I went that route.

Eventually I did go back and earn Rifleman with my iron sighted rifle.

If you are struggling with iron sights, in my experience as both an AS instructor, coach and also competitor, it is 99.99% of the time that the marksman is NOT FOCUSED ON THE FRONT SIGHT, or they are sloppy in SIGHT ALIGNMENT.

Back to Scopes, WHY IN THE WORLD would we want to frustrate our kids? Teach em on the scopes, and after they have the fundamentals mastered, then introduce the irons. I can say with 1000% certainty....there is absolutely NO WAY my 10 yr old daughter would still be shooting high power if I insisted she start with iron sights! LOL

For ANYONE struggling with the AQT:

Try it with a scoped rifle.

I would bet in most cases, you will not see much of an improvement.

Why?

Because there is something else lacking, could be NPA, could be trigger squeeze.

BUT....

In SOME cases, it could simply be that you are not taking that leap of faith and transferring ALL of your ENERGY, MINDPOWER and VISION to the tippy tippy top of that front sight post while executing your trigger squeeze.

If you are struggling, and try a scoped rifle and qualify....you will have identified your issue. That would absolutely be "Front Sight Focus and Sight Alignment". Logically speaking, it is the only variable that is different, correct?

Then, I recommend you do what I did....go back to irons, and take that LEAP OF FAITH (I really still believe it is just that, almost like shooting blind folded), and you will do well with irons.

Then, after you figure out the irons, go back to the scope. It will absolutely make you a much better scope shooter, especially if you transfer all your vision to the reticle of the scope and not the target.

It may (it did for me), also identify that my scope reticle had never truly been focused properly.

R/
Chris

[maxwell]

I wimped out last year and started shooting Service Rifle with a scope instead of my A2, after trying the BJones diopters to help maintain front post focus, blackening the front post, trying different apertures, etc. The last half of slow prone (20 minutes to fire 20 shots in a 50 round National Match Course), I'd be struggling to get a consistent sight picture, and blamed the off-call shots on my vision.

In my first practice with a scope on a good rifle, shooting slow prone at a 100 yard reduced target, I was shocked to learn that I was muscling the rifle with my support hand. Not a lot, but just a little to dress up the shot, and I could see it clearly in the scope. With irons, I had no idea that this had become a habit, partly because I was spending so much concentration on the sights and sight picture. I still get corner shots from tensing my trigger shoulder, but I cleaned both prone stages with an A2 at the Douglas Ridge SAFS this summer, so I think my fundamentals have improved (and I know for sure that my vision has gotten worse over the last year).

[USNAVYCHIEF(Ret)]

Right on Maxwell!

That MR-31 target will absolute demoralize ya!

I came close to cleaning it once..., LOL over a year ago.

Scopes are allowed...and require less "gear" (smoker, etc,...), but do bring their own set of concerns.

Like dumping a rifle while being towed down to the 200 yard line in a golf cart....my $2300 March scope was totalled in that accident!

Iron sights likely would have been fine.

But, I got the March repaired and continue to use it.  It is mine until Shannon makes Master...that is our deal, then she gets the March and I'm back to the Vortex.

LOL

[maxwell]

Like dumping a rifle while being towed down to the 200 yard line in a golf cart....my $2300 March scope was totalled in that accident!

Ouch. If I break my Athlon, at least I might be able to replace it without selling the family car, but I'm a bit concerned with ruggedness. Given that I shot a PR of 194-10X at 600 last night, it ain't what's holding me back right now.

[USNAVYCHIEF(Ret)]

Two of my friends are using the Athalon, and love it.

Had I not already owned the Vortex's I would likely go for the Athalon.

My only beef (I am sure I could get used to it), is the center dot is soooooo tiny.  My march dot is 1.25 MOA, slightly larger than the X ring.

I only looked thru one once and it was brief. 

But, a guy I shoot with routinely was actually testing that scope for them.  He shoots some pretty phenomenal scores with his.  Recently he shot a 499 out of 500 on the 100 yard reduced targets (range record!)

R/
Chris

[CarrollMS]

" The target was so blurry and my vision not good enough, to hold center of mass, or 6 o clock. I still was in the aiming black with my shots though, in spite of my vision. I could easily hold the 8 ring at 600 yards."

Some really good posts Chief. Thanks.  69 year old eyes is a handicap with iron sights.  I have a real problem trying to identify the bottom of the stage 4 targets, so I usually try to come up to what I think is the bottom, and then up a bit  more  into what I think is the center.  I was still shooting low however.  I use about  1-power reading glasses to give me a sharp front sight focus, but seeing the blurred downrange target on stage 4 is really tough and focusing on keeping the front sight on it is tougher.  I also tried with a 6:00 hold, but was much worse off than with my perceived center hold.  I hope to earn a distinguished one day with the A2 sights (using the Colt-Walther M4 22LR

[Orion59]

I struggled with irons as well. I had tech sights and thought my eyesight was bad because the target would always get fuzzy whilst studying my front sight. Ended up going to a scope and although it did help some, I soon realized I was to blame for my poor shooting.