Gear for CMP/NRA High Power

[navybowhunter]

Figured I'd start a topic on this.  I met this guy named JMDavis at an Appleseed in VA when I earned my Red Hat....and he was talking to me about HP.  I got very excited.  Decided to contact a "Distinguished" Rifleman...Bluemax121, and he told me what to get.

It was an expensive investment.  But I knew I was going to do this, had pretty much already made my mind up.

It for me was for the most part a "Buy Once Cry Once" thing.  All to often in the past (my hobbies) I have opted to take an easier/cheaper way....and that has cost me more in the long run for 99% of the time.

OK....lets start this with a question, "Chris, what does say an Appleseed Rifleman need for NRA HP gear wise"

Well....first one must do 2 things.  Go to the CMP website and create a FREE competitor number.  Then, get a NRA number.  Mine is my NRA membership number.

Then we need some gear.  ALL this gear will translate to CMP "Wood Rifle" matches as well....but one can surely go cheaper if only desiring to shoot the CMP Games matches at 200 yards with the wood rifles.

Without further adue:

1.  Cart...one doesn't NEED a cart, but they are available and allowed, and make toting all the below around the course (parking lot to 200 yard line, to 300 yard line, to the pits to score, to the 600 yard line, back to pits to score....see where I'm going?)  Creedmoor Cart is what I use...but there are others.

2.  Small chair...for sitting on in the pits...and when performing scoring duties on the yard line for your shooter.

3.  Spotting Scope.  For NRA HP...I recommend the KOWA TSN-821 with a 24X Long Eye Relief eyepiece.  For CMP 200 yard line matches...any spotting scope will do.  Scope primary purpose is for you to perform scorekeeping duties.  Other purpose is for reading the mirage when at the 300 and 600 yard lines.

4.  Spotting Scope Stand:  I use the Creedmoor 1 inch stand, and the polecat articulating head.  It needs to be STOUT and tall enough for you to use when shooting standing at the 200 yard line.

5.  Raingear

6.  ECI's

7.  Rifle case is recommended.  I use the Creedmoor case...as it works very well with my cart.

8.  Data book:  I like the Creedmoor Svc rifle book...many out there to choose from

9.  2 write in the rain pens.

10.  Camelback for water....and a small cooler for lunch and more water!

11.  Nuun electrolyte sugar free tablets for my water.

12.  Ray Vin sight smoker for the front sight on the wood rifles, and carbide rocks for the smoker.

13.  Shooting Coat.  Creedmoor Cordura Hardback is what I use...but there are others.

14.  Ammo pouches for shooting in the standing position...it clips in nicely to the coat.  .30 and .22 cal.

15.  Spare parts..., bolts, firing pins, extractors, springs, etc etc.....

16.  Sight adjustment tools...I have "fix it sticks" with torque limiters that are preset for everything I would need.

17.  Magazines...for the AR I use GI issued mags.  Too many issues with Pmags in the Rapids.  I carry 6 with me. 

18.  Magazine pouch....creedmoor sells a nice one.

19.  BOB Sled.  This is a dummy weighted magazine to make slow fire easier on you.  You can also get a single round follower and modify a GI Mag..., but the Bob SLED is awesome. 

20.  Eyepro

21.  Earpro:  Not the big chainsaw earmuffs.  They interfere with my cheek weld.  I have custom fitted/molded earplugs.  Ever go to Camp Perry, see CeCa Associates.  They are AWESOME

22.  Jersey...to help fill out the shooting coat.  An Appleseed sweatshirt will work as well.  I do not use a hooded sweatshirt, interferes with my cheek weld.  But thats just me.

Rifles!

For NRA HP:
AR15.  Check the rule book on this.  But basically....
- Standard MILSPEC lower, with a
- Geissele National Match trigger, set to break a 4.5 lbs (rule)
- MAGPUL UBR stock *allowed per rules*
- MAGPUL BAD lever, so I don't have to reach across my scope to hit the bolt release in the rapids
- 20 inch match barrel (Criterion/White Oak/Green Mountain), just make sure it is a heavy barrel, and 20 inches to stabilize the bullets.
- Vortex Viper PST 1x4 TMCQ MOA optic
- DNZ Freedom Reaper mount with a 3 inch offset
- Sling
I use a 1907 style sling.  I recently swapped my Turner AWS Biothane to a Ron Brown sling.  Have not shot with the Ron Brown yet..., but people swear they are the cats meow.  A GI Web sling will work....but eventually one will want a 1907
- Mat:  Any mat will work.  I like the Creedmoor mat.

JC Garand AS Issued Matches:
All the above gear...
Enbloc Clips Loaded already

Thats about it.

Standing by to answer questions to any of the above.  It is what works....for me!  And many many many others.

R/
Chris

[navybowhunter]

A great thing to do as well, if on Facebook, is search for a group called "The Firing Line Tag Sale".....lots of HP gear offered for sale there as well.

Creedmoor Sports offers "holiday packages" on stuff like the coat and the cart and the scope.

Can make ordering the stuff easier and a bit cheaper doing the Holiday Packages.

[navybowhunter]

I got a "Bible" of high power shooting notes from a guy off the CMP forum 2 years ago.  He shared them with me with the caveat "Share with whomever you like Chris, but please never post on a social media site or any forum".

I'd be willing to share those notes with any of you...if you respect the originators caveat.

Email me at navarchgolf@gmail.com and I will email the file to you.  It is like 9MB, so be ready for a big Adobe file.

The notes are a bit dated..., but are at least 90% applicable today.  I still refer back to them.

R/
Chris

[maxwell]

Nice list; thanks, Chris! I've gradually accumulated some of this stuff over the current HP season. Our local club only does 100-yard reduced matches (run by IIT Bandmask), so the gear requirements aren't quite as severe right out of the gate. I'm not good enough or serious enough to travel further at this point.

As an additional note, some of this stuff seems frivolous at first. I mean, who needs a cartridge box?!? After I forgot to put additional sighter rounds in my pocket for offhand and lost two scoring rounds, I ordered one. I'm still on the fence over the BOB Sled; as a lefty, I remove the rifle from my shoulder for every shot in slow fire, so I have a good view of the ejection port. Creedmoor's sale just started, though…

[ChestyPuller]

DUH NEVERMIND

[navybowhunter]

This is an Appleseed Forum....

We have a mission right?  Save America?  One Rifleman at a time?

I'll tell ya.....I've 7th stepped ALOT of clubs and Appleseeders by simply wearing Appleseed Bling at matches.  It works.

When in the pits.....I 7th step!

Heck, one of the best shooters in the country is an Appleseed SB from CA.  Look up/Google "Being of Service Rifle"

I just figured I'd share some of what I have learned in NRA HP/CMP stuff over the past 2 years.

I shot 1 local match..., without any gear except my Garand.

My first sanctioned match was the CMP Eastern Games!  All 10 days worth!

You guys/gals can do it as well.  TRUST me, you have the skilllllzzz!

Standing will be an "eye opener" as it is for anyone shooting 200 yards for the first time.

JUMP in with both feet if interested.  You will meet more "like minded" Americans.., and be able to spread the word!  The Appleseed message!

R/
Chris

[308LIBERTY]

While gear is nice, I would highly recommend just jumping in and shooting some matches, even if all you show up with is a good attitude and the bare minimum. I started with a 12 dollar jacket I literally bought at Goodwill and sewed some rubberized pads on and a spotting scope stand I made from a microphone stand that someone threw in the trash. My "kit" consisted of a cheap folding fishing chair with a carry strap on it. If you want to get competitive, sure you will want more gear. But you can learn a lot from those guys, just by being there and only competing with yourself and your ability. Plus, it will impress the hell out of those old guys when you don't come in last without all the fancy gear. My first match was with my Garand and I loved every minute of it. Just get out there and shoot.

[navybowhunter]

Well...times are a changing.  Yesterday the NRA announced that they will no longer have NRA week at the Nationals at Camp Perry, OH.

That is a BIG deal. 

Here is the response from the CMP's COO Mark Johnson:

Per Mark Johnson, CMP COO:
The CMP will not take the blame for the NRA's indecision.  The dates were agreed upon months ago by Ohio National Guard, CMP, and NRA.  The NRA is now breaking the deal with the other two partners.  This is solely the NRA's decision and fault.

The CMP will be rolling out its own High Power Ranking Program and will implement CMP High Power Matches, Match Rifle events, and New Pistol Matches at Camp Perry in 2018.  The tradition of the National Matches at Camp Perry will continue supported by the CMP and the Ohio National Guard with or without the support of the NRA.

-------------------------------------------------

So....there is some "Stuff" to be worked out. 

[jmdavis]

There will be High Power Matches at Perry even if the NRA moves their matches. To be honest, I believe that the best run 2400 in America is the Creedmoor Cup in NC. It has just a few less shooters than the National Matches. but is better run than the 2400 at the Nationals. The Western Creedmoor Cup may be just as good but I have not shot it.

[navybowhunter]

As an additional note, some of this stuff seems frivolous at first. I mean, who needs a cartridge box?!? After I forgot to put additional sighter rounds in my pocket for offhand and lost two scoring rounds, I ordered one. I'm still on the fence over the BOB Sled; as a lefty, I remove the rifle from my shoulder for every shot in slow fire, so I have a good view of the ejection port. Creedmoor's sale just started, though…

LOL!  Yeah....well....when standing with that hardback coat all snugged up, it is impossible to bend over to get anything!  Cartridge boxes surely do serve a purpose.  Pretty cool with the 2 loops on it for sighters as well.

I think Jumpboot made his own, came out nice too.

My list above is not at all total, but close enough.  As Three'o'Eight mentioned..., you don't need all that stuff in the beginning nor will you for any reduced distance matches.  But in time if you fall in love with the sport, the gear will come as well.

Agreed JM Davis!  I have only shot Perry and Butner, and I love Butner.  I also like the electronic target frames...but some do not like the extra delay.

I received requests from a few this morning for the shooters notes.  Hope you all find them useful, LOTS of good stuff in those notes.  That guy is awesome for putting them all together like that.

Only thing outdated in the notes, is that they don't discuss the optics on the rifle rule change that happened last year.  But that is pretty straightforward and covered in its own post.

R/
Chris

[Specialkay]

I fully expect that my questions may not be answerable, at least without a whole lot of "it depends" but I figure I'll ask anyway

1. One could spend a TON of money getting the supplies together they need to do a CMP/HP match. Or one could dumpster dive and get most of their equipment for super cheap. But realistically speaking, what should someone expect to spend, all in, to become a contender at a CMP/HP match?

2. Of the items listed, what would you consider REQUIRED to attend a CMP/HP event, what would you consider ADVISABLE, and what would you consider OPTIONAL?

[Mark Davis]

Required would be.
Rifle
Ammo
2 Magazines
Open bolt indicator
Writing device to score with
Optics for scoring
Drinking water

You will want more gear.
Just go to a match, you can build the inventory of goodies little by little.

Most the other competitors have extra gear they would be willing to sell.  Show up with out something, the offers will be forthcoming. Some is second rate, some does not fit the seller.

If you miss creedmore's Christmas sale, it will be year before another discount on quality gear comes around. Their shooting jackets are tailored to fit, but with out knowing the features. ordering one is bewildering. Going to a few matches, observing others equipment and asking questions might help you get the jacket you want the first time you order one.

The equipment on navybowhunter's list is very good stuff, you might say caddilac.
I'm still driving a Toyota.

[navybowhunter]

SpecialKay,

ALL IN?  including a match grade rifle?

I'd say 4,500 would be a ballpark number, give or take a few hundred.

NOT to include reloading gear...unless one is wealthy enough to buy ammo for each match and practice.

It ain't cheap.  BUT...as stated above, you do not have to buy it all at once.  Hit up a local match or 3, and go from there.

You could always go to Creedmoor Sports (no I don't work for them, but the GM is a personal friend)....and start adding the above stuff to the cart....they sell match grade uppers as well...to get an idea on the cost.

R/
Chris

[Specialkay]

ALL IN?  including a match grade rifle?

I'd say 4,500 would be a ballpark number, give or take a few hundred.

Considering 50% of that, or more is in the rifle, significantly cheaper than I thought it would be.

[jmdavis]

OK, I'll provide the less expensive version.

For an iron sight rifle.

$1100- that is an A2 White Oak pinned upper with a self build lower using a Geissle Trigger, add 700 for a scope and mount YMMV
$225 for a Champions Choice or Champion Shooter Supply Coat. The Service rifle record of 998-44x of 1000 was set with a Champion Shooter Supply Coat
$325 for Creedmoor basic $404 for a Creedmoor cordura configured for All position with vents and straps
$50 mat
$225 Scope Stand
$225 Konus Scope

$200 Stool and Rayvin Cart conversion (the lightest out there and basic but works well)

$90 6-20 round magazines
$22 20 round mag with single round follower (not Bob Sled).

$2137 is pretty well outfitted.

But you can work up to that over time at local matches. For my first few Across the Course matches my cart was a milk crate on a hand truck. My stool was a hunting stool I had. My scope and stand were borrowed. Heck my rifle was a loaner too.

Get to a local match and try it with what you have right now. See how you like it. Truthfully I would recommend two or 3 matches.

Targets
$30 SR1 100 yard reduced target centers buy 200 and shoot on them ALOT. Then get more.

Reloading
If I were starting from scratch for Highpower on a budget:

$140 Lee Breechlock Challenger reloading kit (it will do what you need)
$36 Hornady dies (I like the bullet support for seating).

RL 15 or H4895 powder (because there are lots of loads)
Range Brass sorted by headstamp
Remington 7.5 primers
A good supply of consistent bullets. Hornady 75's are a good price/performance buy, but you might shoot 55's or 52's for reduced course matches.

Work ethic

The important thing if you are interested is to start as soon as possible.

[navybowhunter]

JMDavis list is Great!

I on the other hand....went All In, and I mean ALL IN.

Bought all the stuff...then 2 match grade A2 uppers (cause ya need a spare right? LOL)

Then....an M1 Garand I had James River Armory refurb.
Did the Eastern Games, which is:
JC Garand Match
Springfield Match (03 bolt gun)
Vintage Military Match (did a Garand RE-Entry...more on that below)
Modern Military Match (AR15 A2 as issued....borrowed a friends)
SAFS Rifle (all gear provided)
Vintage Sniper (borrowed a friends 03A4)
Creedmoor Cup 2400 agg (used my match grade A2)

Then, I had SO MUCH fun I registered for all the above at Camp Perry.  Well...found out that one cannot do a "Garand Re-Entry" in the Springfield and Vintage matches...as these are National Matches.  One must use a Springfield, and for Vintage...a 1917 or similar bolt gun (its in the rule book what rifles one can use).

SO....
I bought an 03A4 for Vintage Sniper from Creedmoor (earned a Gold with that at Perry this year, and a Bronze at Butner)
A spare Garand...CMP special
A 1917 I got from Patent Guy
an M1 Carbine that I had James River Armory refurbish for me (cause ya gotta shoot the Carbine match as well)
a 1903A3 from James River Armory that they brought to Perry for me

That is a LOT of matches...and never again will I shoot all the CMP Games and NRA HP matches.

But it is what I did.  Its a miracle I am still married!

Now my focus is to earn the Distinguished Rifle (DR) badge that the CMP awards.  It is my goal and focus.  Not to say I won't shoot a JC Garand Match or Springfield match again someday.  But my focus is on that DR badge....which is the AR15 now with a scope.

For anyone interested...with good eyes...I have a Creedmoor Sports A2 upper, with about 1200(ish) rounds fired thru it.  My eyes can't do it at 600 *age and astigmatism*
Here is a link to the specs of that upper.  I'd be willing to let that upper go for a steal, to an Appleseeder wanting to get into the sport.
https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/1433/shop-by-department

DON'T do what I did above! LOL..., unless you have a lot of money.  It is not necessary.  Only sharing to show you all my level of committment to this discipline.

R/
Chris

[navybowhunter]

Just checked...and the Creedmoor  Sports sales are on now.

R/
Chris

[navybowhunter]

It's all a journey right?  Just like when we earned that Rifleman patch....for some...it took awhile.  Like me!

Anyways, one word of advice/caution, from my experience.

Don't expect to do well, at your first match.  I did and it was a HUGE letdown for me.  I actually started blaming Appleseed instruction for it (to an extent).

I totally though the quest for the DR badge was akin to the Appleseed Rifleman patch.  I also approached it with the same cocky attitude I did at my first Appleseed, "We're gonna SMOKE CHECK this"!  LOL

I needed counseling and therapy after my first match.  I think I scored a whopping 20something in the standing position.  Rapid Fire I did respectably well and Slow Prone as well.  But standing kicked my As&!

This is a very tough and demanding discipline.  As JMDavis alludes to regularly...99.9% of it is mental.  I'm not going to comment on that any further in here.  There are books dedicated to the mental process though.

Show up...with a "Willling to Learn" attitude.  I have not met a bad competitor in the sport yet!  As mentioned...most will go out of their way to assist, loan gear, help train, it truly is humbling.

That is the word!  Humility!  Approach it that way and it will be a very pleasurable experience.

My first match I looked like a monkey "Doing something" to a football bat!  I was all screwed up.  No logistics process, did not understand scoring...and how the match "moves".

But do not expect to be in the top 10%.

Also, do not expect to lose the match either.  I sucked (getting better now), but a fellow I always shoot with when in NC, told me when we first met, "Relax bro...you will likely never be in last place"!  Lots of truth to that.  Some of the best competitors have equipment malfunctions...or simply just have a bad day.

Anyways..., the other HUGE bonus of attending and competing at these matches..is meeting fellow Appleseeders!  They do stand out from the others and also shoot very well!

Anyways...FWIW

R/
Chris

[maxwell]

$1100- that is an A2 White Oak pinned upper with a self build lower using a Geissle Trigger, add 700 for a scope and mount YMMV

You can also save a couple hundred bucks if you build it yourself. Del-Ton A2 upper, Rock River NM float tube from Brownells, White Oak 20" service rifle barrel, Anderson lower with Palmetto A2 parts kit sans trigger (I use a Geissele G2S). Get a Brownells sight base and drill/tap for the set screws. Total $600-700. Add another $125 for a White Oak 1/4 MOA sight. I did all of this to guarantee to myself that I am the limiting factor, since of course I shoot 4 MOA with a rack grade rifle and ball ammo. Usually .

Like jmdavis said, go shoot some local matches, regardless of your gear: you know, improvise, adapt, and overcome! Ours are pretty informal, and guys show up with generic AR-15s and a Carhartt coat. I look at this as a good skill builder and refresher for Appleseed instructors, besides being fun.

[jmdavis]

$1100- that is an A2 White Oak pinned upper with a self build lower using a Geissle Trigger, add 700 for a scope and mount YMMV

You can also save a couple hundred bucks if you build it yourself. Del-Ton A2 upper, Rock River NM float tube from Brownells, White Oak 20" service rifle barrel, Anderson lower with Palmetto A2 parts kit sans trigger (I use a Geissele G2S). Get a Brownells sight base and drill/tap for the set screws. Total $600-700. Add another $125 for a White Oak 1/4 MOA sight. I did all of this to guarantee to myself that I am the limiting factor, since of course I shoot 4 MOA with a rack grade rifle and ball ammo. Usually .

Like jmdavis said, go shoot some local matches, regardless of your gear: you know, improvise, adapt, and overcome! Ours are pretty informal, and guys show up with generic AR-15s and a Carhartt coat. I look at this as a good skill builder and refresher for Appleseed instructors, besides being fun.

The upper sans handle is $670. The A2 is like $780. Check White Oak for Current prices.  I couldn't build one and buy the tools for less than $100 over the finished upper. But there is a wait sometimes for uppers. So if you may have to buy the parts and tools to do it your self for the least expensive versions.

[maxwell]

The upper sans handle is $670. The A2 is like $780. Check White Oak for Current prices.  I couldn't build one and buy the tools for less than $100 over the finished upper. But there is a wait sometimes for uppers. So if you may have to buy the parts and tools to do it your self for the least expensive versions.

Good point: I already had the tools, so I ignored that. Parts cost for my A2 upper was $600, plus another $50 in shipping from various vendors; I did all of this in winter 2016, so costs are reasonably current. I already had a lower with an A2 stock (don't we all?). Barrel and float tube are the best rifle upgrades I've made for noticeable group improvement, and I could've done that to my flattop AR and used a carry handle or scope.