Optics on AR15's

[TallSteve]

In a previous post in this thread, I said "Thank You" for this great information.  This got me moving in the right direction.  Now for the update...

Joe (eaglescouter), Laurie (Norcal22Gal), April (April 6 Showers), and I went to the range yesterday.  One of the things we did was install my new Leupold Mark AR 1.5 -4x 20mm FireDot-G SPR scope on my AR-15.  We used the Vortex CM103 3 inch Cantilever Mount. 

This puts the scope into the correct position for myself.  I am 6-6 with a big build.  This also put the scope in a usable position for my GF April who is 5-5.  The height of this scope mount positions the center of the scope at 1.59 inch above the base.  The build quality is very good and I anticipate that it will work well on my AR-15.

The mount is currently available on Amazon for $90 with free shipping. 

Thanks everyone for helping solve this problem.  Thanks Joe for your help.

[navybowhunter]

Glad to hear it worked out TallSteve!

R/
Chris

[goodoldfriend]

Navybowhunter,

Thanks for your explanation of the process of getting the scope mount right. Somehow I stumbled onto something like this when I was getting a rifle set up for my daughter to use. It was hard to get her to be patient but as things improved she got it.

Thanks again sir! Thanks also to all who give of their time here to help others. I really appreciate it.

[Bluesteel]

I would like to throw in for consideration another aspect. Human engineering. I heard a SB say that rifles are manufactured as "one size fits all", which in reality means "one size fits only a few".

Using myself as a model, now I stand barely 5'6". With an A2 stock (last version of the CMP rules I read did not approve collapsible stocks for CMP competitions) and my nose against the charging handle, the butt of the stock is on my bicep.  That doesn't do any harm with a .223/5.56, but I like to build habit patterns. CMP  is not my final goal, hunting is. If I did that with my 12 gauge shotgun or my 30-06 bolt rifle (I don't own a .338), I would be brushing my teeth with my left hand for at least a week (don't ask me how I know).

What I'm trying to say is this: proper scope position is where you can get a proper sight alignment;  cheek on stock position depends on where you can get a good sight alignment with the butt of the stock resting on your shoulder pocket. Sounds like "what comes first, the chicken or the egg? "  This is how I do it: first I place the rifle butt in my shoulder pocket (this is what's going to physically hurt me) and then I move the scope to achieve proper sight alignment. Eye relief will take care of itself if your sights are aligned.

I stand ready to be shot at dawn.

aj

Joe, you can take an A2 buttstock and change out the shell for an A1 which is 5/8" shorter (and re-use the A2 buttplate).  I'm 5'6" and I've done that with all of my AR's.  You can buy the shell and proper upper buttplate screw at Fulton Armory for about $28.  The A1 gets rid of the plastic spacer at the end of the buffer tube, so needs an A1 upper screw.  You might have to fiddle with the buttplate to get it to fit the A1 shell but I've always made it work.  The A2 buttplate is better than the A1 IMO, because it has a more aggressive non-slip checkering than the A1, so this set-up gives you the best of both the A1 and A2, IMO plus you can usually find a UTG A2 kit for around $60 and swap the shell out for less than the cost of an A1 kit.

Here's a link to the A1 shell:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/buttstockstrippeda1newblack.aspx

And the screw you need:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/buttstockscrewuppera1.aspx

[navybowhunter]

I did mention I broke my leg a few months ago right?  Anyways...there...

So, I have a lot of extra couch time on my hands.  Want to get a chuckle?  For those of you on Facebook, check out the group ar15.com

I've never seen so many pictures of dysfunctional rifle setups in my life!  It is truly a joy to watch/read.

R/
Chris

[Specialkay]

So I went ahead and got the DNZ scope mount and . . . . it doesn't fit the scope. Bummer. Looks neat though.

Now to figure out if I return the mount and try for another one, or hold onto the mount and wait till I can afford a "competition" scope to fit in the mount. Decisions decisions.

[Rocket Man]

So, I have a lot of extra couch time on my hands.  Want to get a chuckle?  For those of you on Facebook, check out the group ar15.com

I've never seen so many pictures of dysfunctional rifle setups in my life!  It is truly a joy to watch/read.

  Pretty sure we've all been to ArfCom at least once or twice. 

No different than "race cars" or anything else -- some products are good for performance, some might be in theory but aren't practical, some look like they could be, and some are just for show... if that.  No big deal.  Some rifles get shot, and some don't.

FWIW my own AR-15 wears optics -- a TA33G-H ACOG.  Not ever going to win a match with that, but getting eye relief right is easy, and it does well on a "hits count" unknown distance range...  My other AR-15 is coming together as a service rifle build, all irons for as long as my eyes can hold out, but there is more to life than matches.

Heck, my favorite rifle is still my M1 Garand, warts and all.  There are very legitimate criticisms of it, but I don't care.   

[maxwell]

Heck, my favorite rifle is still my M1 Garand, warts and all.  There are very legitimate criticisms of it, but I don't care.   

I love the Garand, and I'm still annoyed that I've not qualified with it on the AQT. Last time was mostly due to malfunctions of my "new" one.

More relevant to this thread, my wife (qualified Rifleman with 10/22) just decided she wants to try service rifle, but wasn't comfortable with the scope I had on my "spare" service rifle, and can't do NTCH in most positions. I swapped the scope for a carry handle and ordered the A1 stock shell that Bluesteel suggested. Maybe we'll try the scope again once she gets comfortable with a new platform.

[Cadence]

I have been following this thread and just thought I'd chime in.

I bought a Vortex Strike Eagle scope and mount package from SWFA to put on an LMT upper I bought a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, the mount (Which is nice) that came with it won't allow me to get the scope far enough forward to get NTCH position. Here's hoping Santa will get my request for a Keystone Accuracy A5 NM mount for the scope. 

Chris - How did you break your leg? At least it was after the Nationals!!    Get Well Soon

[ChestyPuller]

[quote
Chris - How did you break your leg? At least it was after the Nationals!!    Get Well Soon
[/quote]

Riverdance 

[Cadence]

Riverdance - 

[henschman]

The best solution I've found for mounting a scope at the proper height for cheek weld and far enough forward for proper eye relief shooting NTCH is the YHM Extended Riser:  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2696314296/yankee-hill-machine-extended-picatinny-style-riser-mount-ar-15-flat-top-matte  I generaly go with the 6" model on AR-15s.  It is a 0.5" tall riser, so if you use it with medium height 30mm rings, it puts center of ring around 1.33".  With a low 1" ring, it is around 1.25".  These heights certainly provide a better cheek weld than most of the one-piece mounts on the market, which are generally 1.5" or higher.  I like Vortex Viper rings, which have coin slots in them that allow the scope to be quickly removed in the field with a variety of tools.  Be aware if you mount your scope this low and have a fixed front sight base, the front sight post WILL create a shadow in the FOV that will degrade light transmission in your optic.  I highly recommend using this in conjunction with a folding front sight of some sort, whether it's on the gas block or a free float handguard (if you're going to have a front sight at all).  Also, with the scope this low, there aren't many rear sights that are low profile enough to clear the ocular housing of most scopes.  The Spikes Micro and the Magpul PRO are the only decent ones I know of that will.  I use the former on my rifles. 

Here are some of my rifles with this setup:





Another consideration is what stock to use.  If you have a collapsible stock, generally your cheek will be resting on the bare buffer tube if you're an average sized man shooting NTCH.  This lowers your cheek height even more, and makes it even harder to get a real cheek weld.  I greatly prefer a fixed stock for scoped rifles (unless I'm shooting in plates), because they provide a consistent cheek weld that is higher than a bare buffer tube.

If you have a collapsible stocked AR and 1.5" tall one-piece mount, don't sweat it -- you can still easily shoot to Rifleman's standards without a perfect cheek weld.  Think of it this way -- you won't have any worse cheek weld than a guy shooting an iron sighted M1, M-14, or AR with the rear sight adjusted up to it's 500 yard setting.  Just turkey neck out there, get your head in contact with the stock in some repeatable fashion, and get down to business. 

[Specialkay]

henschman - The positioning of your slings looks very interesting. Why do you have them all positioned to the side and so far back?

[henschman]

I use a side mounted sling because I usually carry the rifle hanging across my chest in the low ready, making it quick to bring up to a firing position.  You can easily use a tactical 2-point sling as a shooting sling when carrying this way, as long as the front swivel is located somewhere forward of where your support hand grabs the handguard -- simply wrap your wrist around the front portion of the sling like you would with a hasty sling.  You don't have to worry about the sling sliding down your arm since it runs across your back.  It helps to use the front swivel as a hand stop, which is why I have it placed about 6" from the back of the handguard.  This puts my support elbow at a nice 90 degree angle.  Using the sling this way provides as much support as a loop sling, and is quicker to get in and out of than either a hasty or a loop sling. 

When shooting close quarters, I grab the handguard forward of the front sling swivel. 

Disregard the first picture, where the sling is attached at the very rear of the handguard.  I included it because it shows a good close-up of my riser and ring setup, but the sling can't really be used as a marksmanship aid when set up that way. 

[Specialkay]

Would it be safe to assume that you lose some sling stability by positioning them this way when compared to a standard loop sling?

[henschman]

No, it's as stable as an Appleseed style (i.e. "snug") loop sling, but much faster to get in and out of.  It also allows the rifle to be carried in much more effective ways than traditional shoulder carry.  In other words, it's better in every way for field use. 

It may give up some stability to a match style banjo-string-tight loop sling with a padded glove and shooting jacket... but that is in no way a viable option for use in the field. 

[Specialkay]

So after reading all the advice, doing some research, getting the right parts and tools, and installing them, here's what my rifle looks like with it's optic on it. Look about right?





There is significantly more "play" in the eyebox than I thought there was though. I could probably move it back another half an inch and not notice much of a difference.

[Mutant Texan]

Mr. McKinley sent me a pic of his setup (attached). It shows how he has his scope mounted with the Blackhawk riser he mentioned in his earlier post.

Thanks for showing it to me. I will keep it in mind if my Nikon offset rings don't work.

I like the logo on your rifle's lower.  Is that something you had custom made or was this made in a large batch of lowers?  Would it be within the rules of the RWVA for me to have a custom lower built with the same logo?

[Specialkay]

Would it be within the rules of the RWVA for me to have a custom lower built with the same logo?

Something fairly similar was in the works a while back. I believe it fell through though: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=48613.0

[navybowhunter]

SpecialKay, it looks PERFECT!

[SteelThunder]

Really appreciate this thread...nice to steal ideas from others' experiences vs having to learn them (all) the hard way.

Last year's MI KD event showed me that my 51 year old Mark I eyeballs no longer can discern target numbers, etc out past the 2-300 yard mark. (Thank heavens I had KD qualified in past events...that was embarrassing!)  It's time for optics and the new Service Rifle rules fit the bill.

I've co-opted the build below to be my Appleseed KD rifle (main one...I refuse to completely give up my WOA A2) and maybepossiblyifIcanfindthetime NRA HiPower/CMP Service rifle.

20" 1:8 Wylde barrel with a Nikon P223 1.5-4.5x variable in a Freedom Reaper mount.  I'd prefer a lower mount but that's what the bank account dictated.  The Magpul stock is nice...very tight lockup, I can change it between my prone/sitting position and standing to get a great NTCH position.  By the way, I haven't seen it mentioned yet but I really like the Nikon...very clear glass, audible/tactile 1/4 MOA adjustments, repeatable.  $160 on sale at Optics Planet.  It does have the BDC circles on the lower stadia but they aren't very distracting.  Geissele trigger, BAD lever, blah, blah, blah.

Questions for navybowhunter/jmdavis/others:
+ I still have the slim MLOK handguard on this (because I HATEHATEHATE quad rails).  Fine for Appleseed but for Service Rifle?  If I attach full length rails at 3/6/9 can I keep these?  Or will I have to swap the handguard for one with permanently attached rails for NRA/CMP?
+ Originally built for this rifle, I saw no need for weight/cost/complexity of ejection port cover/fwd assist.  Does the absense of them disqualify this rifle?

Thankee in advance.

[jmdavis]

The answer to the rail question is that we don't know yet on the CMP side for service rifle. Logically rails at 12,3,6, and 9 meets the rule. But, there are a lot of rules lawyers out there. I would send the question to CMP, get an answer and then keep the letter with my rifle. But I would word it like, "My AR front handguard is a Rifle Length Mlock style with full rails at 12,3,6 and 9 o'clock. Does this hand guard meet the new rule?"

You need to make sure that your swivel is at 13+- .5 inches from the mag well.

I wouldn't expect an issue at NRA matches as long as you have the rails.

Good luck.

[navybowhunter]

SteelThunder,

New rulebook is out for CMP Service rifle.  You can download that from the CMP Website.

The handguards were mentioned specifically as a rule change in this years rules.  JMDavis addressed that below...basically, either ol skool A2 style handguards, or....a quad rail with "rail" at 3/6/9/12 o'clock position.  I am not really sure "why" that was specifically addressed this year, but it has been.  As JMDavis mentioned an email to CMP will get you clarification.  I'll caution you to not get frustrated with the CMP's initial response.  I asked 3 questions recently, and each question the initial CMP response was quoting paragraph/page in the rule book, or a cut/paste.  Frustrating, but....after a few back/forth emails they gave me the clarification I was looking for on a certain rule.

As JMDavis mentioned...once you have it in writing from CMP....keep that on your smart phone....print a copy for your cart/data book...etc.  You will likely run into someone on the line (block official/scorekeeper etc) that may question you.  Very nice to be able to "whip out" your official CMP response.

Just ask BeSwift about this! LOL...he was counseled during a Garand match for using a Carbine, and it specifically states in the rules an M1 Carbine is OK to use during a JC Garand match!  Even the "rules Police" are not familiar with every single rule.  Why anyone would want to shoot an inherently less accurate rifle against the M1 Garand is beyond me...but Brian marches to the beat of a different drummer I guess.  He also won a medal with the Carbine in a JC Garand match shot at 200 yards...so...there! LOL

Your RAIL looks sturdy, I'm not familiar with the brand?  I'm going to assume that you have been locked in tight with the sling, and have had no issues?  Regarding rail covers, those are legal.  I use a Yankee Hill (slightly modified) rail, and the entire surface of pic rails at 3/6/9/12 are covered with Manta Rail covers.  They are pricey, but considering I ruined two Creedmoor Gloves on the cheesegrater 6 o'clock rail....worth it to me.  They also provide some "Grip" as well...as they are rubber(ish).

Reason I am mentioning that (rail brand/Sling connection), is it is a concern for me.  I use a Ron Brown 1907 sling (it is STOUT) and when slung up tight I "Fear" using a "QD" attachment to the rail.  In fact several competitors have a similar fear....ripping it out, ball bearing failing, etc etc. 

That QD question was one of the things I had asked CMP to clarify.  Rulebook states "No rifle handling" on the Ready line.  Well...I wanted to know "IF" I chose to use a QD sling attachment point, if I could apply the loop sling to my arm prior to getting on the firing line.  Sounds like it would be fine correct?  Well....as JMDavis mentioned..."Rules Lawyers"....so I asked.  It is LEGAL, but not specifically mentioned in the rules.  It was also a concern, as to "competitive advantage"....meaning I would surely save some prep time getting the sling on behind the firing line....and simply "clicking in" (like the Match Rifle shooters) when on the firing line.

BUT....the concern of a QD failing is still not alleviated.

Check out "Keystone Accuracy"....they sell a modified YHM rail...where he drills the front of the rail for a permanent sling swivel.  They are VERY stout.  You could also discuss with John if your current rail could be modified as well.  He could do it for you....or...you could but the swivel, pin and slave/starter pin from him.

On the "Absence" of dustcover/FWD assist, ask CMP but I think that would be illegal.  It is supposed to be an "As issued" rifle....contradictory somewhat with the barrels and float tubes we use...but those are specifically allowed in the rule book....as is the trigger upgrade.  Ask...but I think it would be a "no".

Why would you want to shave weight?  Most want to ADD weight....and significant weight at that.  My A2 had a lead wedge where the cleaning stuff goes in the stock....weighted handguards as well.  That rifle weighed well over 18 lbs...but it balanced very nicely.  My scope rifles have the MAGPUL UBR stocks...they are a bit heavier than the CTR/STR....and I also have a weight installed in the storage compartment of that stock.  Rifle is lighter (no float tube....no weights in handguards) than my A2...but it balances nicely.  You really would not be saving that much weight by removing those two items....we are talking "ounces".

Regarding a STOUT QD sling attachment for your rail...I recommend the Midwest Industries one...it seems to be very well built...and a mutual friend of JMDavis and myself (Marty) said he couldn't RIP it off when slung up....and Marty is a HARD Holder.  I have one and am still debating using it, mostly out of fear of the QD itself failing...ball bearings/springs etc. 

FWIW

R/
Chris

[SteelThunder]

Thanks jmd/nbh

The rifle wasn't originally built for CMP/NRA, but rather it became co-opted for KD AQTs and adding appropriate optics when the MkI eyeballs failed.  So that's why some of my choices seem sorta sub-optimal now.  Just checking how far away I am from having a rifle in sanctioned matches...and you guys delivered!  Thanks much.

[jmdavis]

The no dust cover forward assist may be fine. It would really only be a possible issue at an EIC match. If I asked the question, I would word it very carefully.

I have them because they are on the uppers that I buy.

Mike

[navybowhunter]

On the FWD Assist and Dust Cover, the 2017 CMP rulebook (Dated 24 Jan 2017) specifically states that the dust cover and FWD assist must remain on the rifle in an "As issued" configuration.

R/
Chris

[jmdavis]

I would still send off the question, since the upper that you purchased was made without them. You might be refused, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. On a side note it now appears that the Mlock tube with rails at all 4 positions extending at least half of the length will be legal.