Article on the M14. "Not Much For Fighting "A Case Against the M14 Legend"

[viperrt1]

Ugh...DI reliability discussion? 
DI guns run just fine.  Keep them oiled the they run.  That is a mature operating system that has been rung out.  Lots of cases of DI guns running 10-15K rounds without cleaning...just lots of oil.

Wooooh slow down a bit.

I never said anything about DI reliability. I was asking about the internal mechanics of the system.  There big difference there. But after reading what you said I was correct the DI+small calibers uses oil to clean and purge the system.

Thank you.


Guns are machines there just like cars. some cars need difference maintenance then others. That all.

Its my curiosity to ask this kinds of questions. I don't want tell some one "oh ya I never oil my SS mini so your AR doesn't need it". That would be horribly wrong.

So don't be mad.

I'm in the business of making things work. 

[SKSRifleman]

As for the AR/M16 platform, I still recommend them over the M1A/M14 every time.





For kids and women. 

I've been on a few run 'n guns with my M1A so I definitely don't baby it. I've drug it through the dirt and sticks, ran with it in the rain in Pecos and even fell in a slimey pond at our first run 'n gun here in Oklahoma. The rifle has kept going without a hitch and hasn't let me down yet. I've put well over 5k rounds through it since I bought it a couple years ago and it still maintains solid accuracy, good enough for Rifleman standards. Call me biased but my go to weapon is my M1A.

[Big John]

And remember fellow Riflemen..."you will not need a 308 for a self defense role in America"
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I think his comment meant that urban fighting would be within .223 range. However, the .223 is not the best weapon
to fight in a building with; 12 gauge sounds more fun.

[DEH]

And remember fellow Riflemen..."you will not need a 308 for a self defense role in America"
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I actually agree with that statement.  I consider the .308 to be my OFFENSIVE weapon.  Although I can do a good imitation with just about any rifle.

[DEH]

The Army went through a stage in which everyone was encouraged to run their rifles as dry as possible.  That lasted up to the first year or two of the GWOT when they figured that if you really needed a rifle to run past 200 rounds, you needed some lube.

correct me if I'm wrong here

So how hot is the DI system getting? I'm assume about 300-500F at lest temporarily.

It hot enough to push the carbon in to the bolt where the bolt is cooling the carbon thus the stick. but the tube is hot enough not to stick. Thus the inherent problem with DI and small caliber. The 308 was able to warm the bolt as well thus pushing carbon out of the system. (well majority of the carbon)

So that where the oil come in. The oil catches the carbon and help flush it out of the bolt system.  Which is also why DI system need to be clean a lot. You need fresh oil

Am I way off base here? I don't have DI in front of me so I just have go off what I see on the internet.

Some carbon will get into the system.  The DI system does not need to be cleaned any more than an M14 and only a little more than an AK.

If you use grease instead of oil, it stays put better.  I personally ran an ar for 3500 rounds over 4 days and all I did was pull the bolt carrier at the end of every day, wipe the grease (sand, dirt, grass) off it, smear a little on the bolt and re-insert it.

Not ONE, Single malf. 

The only time oil is not adequate is if you do mag dumps/full auto or spend time with the rifle in water.

[viperrt1]

The Army went through a stage in which everyone was encouraged to run their rifles as dry as possible.  That lasted up to the first year or two of the GWOT when they figured that if you really needed a rifle to run past 200 rounds, you needed some lube.

correct me if I'm wrong here

So how hot is the DI system getting? I'm assume about 300-500F at lest temporarily.

It hot enough to push the carbon in to the bolt where the bolt is cooling the carbon thus the stick. but the tube is hot enough not to stick. Thus the inherent problem with DI and small caliber. The 308 was able to warm the bolt as well thus pushing carbon out of the system. (well majority of the carbon)

So that where the oil come in. The oil catches the carbon and help flush it out of the bolt system.  Which is also why DI system need to be clean a lot. You need fresh oil

Am I way off base here? I don't have DI in front of me so I just have go off what I see on the internet.

Some carbon will get into the system.  The DI system does not need to be cleaned any more than an M14 and only a little more than an AK.

If you use grease instead of oil, it stays put better.  I personally ran an ar for 3500 rounds over 4 days and all I did was pull the bolt carrier at the end of every day, wipe the grease (sand, dirt, grass) off it, smear a little on the bolt and re-insert it.

Not ONE, Single malf. 

The only time oil is not adequate is if you do mag dumps/full auto or spend time with the rifle in water.

well to be fair the bolt carrier is the whole system - gas tube. AR are very compact system to be far. But at the end of day think I am correct if you want DI system to function longer between cleanings is running them wet.

Garand/styles are the reverse of that. If you just polish them up and run them dry... But with AR you cant do that because the carbon stick either way. So the lube cleans and keeps it running. I wonder if higher detergent oils extend cleaning intervals.

[DEH]

The Army went through a stage in which everyone was encouraged to run their rifles as dry as possible.  That lasted up to the first year or two of the GWOT when they figured that if you really needed a rifle to run past 200 rounds, you needed some lube.

correct me if I'm wrong here

So how hot is the DI system getting? I'm assume about 300-500F at lest temporarily.

It hot enough to push the carbon in to the bolt where the bolt is cooling the carbon thus the stick. but the tube is hot enough not to stick. Thus the inherent problem with DI and small caliber. The 308 was able to warm the bolt as well thus pushing carbon out of the system. (well majority of the carbon)

So that where the oil come in. The oil catches the carbon and help flush it out of the bolt system.  Which is also why DI system need to be clean a lot. You need fresh oil

Am I way off base here? I don't have DI in front of me so I just have go off what I see on the internet.

Some carbon will get into the system.  The DI system does not need to be cleaned any more than an M14 and only a little more than an AK.

If you use grease instead of oil, it stays put better.  I personally ran an ar for 3500 rounds over 4 days and all I did was pull the bolt carrier at the end of every day, wipe the grease (sand, dirt, grass) off it, smear a little on the bolt and re-insert it.

Not ONE, Single malf. 

The only time oil is not adequate is if you do mag dumps/full auto or spend time with the rifle in water.

well to be fair the bolt carrier is the whole system - gas tube. AR are very compact system to be far. But at the end of day think I am correct if you want DI system to function longer between cleanings is running them wet.

Garand/styles are the reverse of that. If you just polish them up and run them dry... But with AR you cant do that because the carbon stick either way. So the lube cleans and keeps it running. I wonder if higher detergent oils extend cleaning intervals.

I have no experience with purposely polished garands or m14s (just use-polished).  Before you make the decision to run one dry, I would recommend signing up for a 3-5 day class in which you fire 1-2k or more rounds and use the rifle in true field conditions.

Even on the Appleseed lines, the open bolts of M14s often have more dirt in them than the carbon of the ARs.

[viperrt1]

I have gone dry and polished. I tried it out on my mini first so if it was bad idea I didn't ruin classic rifle. My bolts stay very clean. Brass not so much but bolt is fine. My 10/22 bolt get far more dirt.

My results have been good. My two climates I run in are the Mojave/death valley and nice nor cal mountains.

Granted I don't bury my rifle in silt then with no care to the world run it with out clearing it first. But ANY gun can jam from horrible miss treatment. All guns should have mag pull, bolt wipe, and action cycle, few time after FODing 


I polished them after learning that a 2 polished surfaces have less friction and ware then not polished surfaces with oil. Also polished surfaces stick less so dirt what not wont stick as much.

[KodyJaret]

I'm trying to get the guys to do an arctic test, figure we fire a rapid fire aqt, bury the rifles in snow, wait an hour and try to fire again. And do it in sub zero weather 

           I've had my Rem1100 (it's eaten a lot of slugs), out in very cold weather,ice on the bbl. & receiver, it functioned when called on. I don't think ice on the outside or water insde the action is  much of a problem.

Here is a winter test :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fA_YHrNyDQ

[proneshooter]

FWIW, my experience running an AR-15 carbine hard over a 2 day course (800 rounds the first day, 500 the second) is that the rifle will run while positively filthy so long as the bolt and cam pin are well lubricated where they move in the bolt carrier.

That's also been my experience with a Rem 1100 sporting clays gun that I took to right over 900 rounds with no cleaning.  Just an occasional drop or two of CLP between the action sleeve and the mag tube.

I don't have any hard use experience with the M1 or M1A, so I defer on those to those of you that do.

[DEH]

A little lube goes a long way

[henschman]

I like the M-14.  If you want an iron-sighted battle rifle, I think the M-14 is the best of breed.  However, I don't like them scoped.  And after several experiences using both aperture-sighted rifles and scoped rifles in low light or no light, and on targets that are shadowed or blend with the background, I have decided that any go-to Second Amendment purpose rifle of mine is going to have optics of some kind. 

Right now, my main go-to 2A rifles are 5.56 AR-15s.  They are, of course, some of the most optics-friendly rifles available.  They are also incredibly cheap to put together right now, even with quality mil spec or better parts.  It can be done in the $5-600 range... cheaper if you really scrounge for deals.  With quality parts, they are highly reliable.  Spare parts are cheap and plentiful.  They are also easy to get good accuracy out of, and are easy to free float (which has major benefits for sling-supported shooting).  One nice thing about 5.56 is that even the cheap ball ammo (55 grain M193) is highly effective in soft tissue at typical firefight distances -- being that it is light and fast, it yaws quickly and fragments.  This is not the case for 7.62 M80 ball (though it does do somewhat better at Rifleman's Quarter Mile distances).  5.56 77 grain open tip match loads work very well out to 500 and farther, if you want to extend the AR's performance.  Of course ammo and mags are much lighter for 5.56, letting you carry a lot more.

Their weaknesses are long range performance, and penetration of hard barriers.  Oh well, that's why I own more than one rifle.