Reloading Garand Ammo on Progressive

[navybowhunter]

Hey all,

Chris here from MD.  Question on reloading M1 Garand ammo (30-06) on a Progressive press.

I am very familiar with re-loading, and have done the powder measure modifications: polishing the funnel, baffle, cleaning the hopper(plastic thing) in dawn and water, and letting it air dry, and the Uniquetek Micrometer mod. 

I am having a real tough time to get IMR 4895 or H4895 or IMR 4064 to meter to "precision" accuracy. 

Conversely, I have had great success with CFE-223, Lil Gun and other "non stick" powders.  I am getting +/- .01 accurate throws with that stuff.

Looking for any suggestions, or...BETTER YET, a non stick type powder that will meter well, for an M1 Garand load.

Appreciate the responses.

Respectfully,
Chris

[navybowhunter]

I apologize for neglecting to mention, I am loading on a Progressive Dillon 650XL.

RCBS small base sizer die (separate toolhead), and for loading, Redding Competition Seater die, and Taper die.  Also the Uniquetek tool head locking mod has been performed.

GREAT success with getting single stage press results, with non-stick powders. 


R/
Chris

[jmdavis]

H4895 should give better results than IMR4895. But stick powders won't be as accurate as ball. Some people also use two powder measures and split the load over the two.

I see loads for Win748 in  my Hornady manual for M1 loads, so there is an option for ball powder out there.

Take a look at how Konrad Powers does his AR loading on the 550, there might be some additional ideas there. But he uses RL15 and is completely unconcerned by +-.1gr in his 24gr loads. If you are within as long as you are not near the max and are withing .1-.2 gr, you should see better accuracy than you can get from commercial or surplus. 

http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/reloading/reloading_procedure.html

Perhaps you should let us know how close your loads are. .01gr requires a good scale and more scales that measure that finely actually have an accuracy of +-.02gr.

[Del]

I use a Hornady LNL and have the same "problem". H4895 isnt terrible but 4064 is a pain. I have actually crushed necks due to the powder measure binding. I size and prime 06 seperate which helps smooth out the press so I can feel when it binds. Normally a little up/down bump will clear it with out effecting the drop. I also use a powder check die to give me a warm fuzzy I havnt over charged.

[DEH]

My .30-06 reloads were done on a Dillon 550 B using H4895.  Testing revealed a 1 grain range of variation in the powder (IOW it was 1/2 gr +/-).  That's like 2.5% of the total (I don't remember the exact load).

I still shot 2 MOA with the rifle.  I considered that good enough.

Because I had lots of it, I did a batch of tracers with AA 2520.  Variation in powder weight was much less but I wasn't loading for accuracy.

[Shooter30-06]

I use Winchester 760 with a 150 grain bullet to duplicate the ball load.  Winchester 760 is a ball powder and meters beautifully.

[Agrivere]

My experience, for what it's worth, is that while ball powders certainly meter much better, they ultimately give me less accuracy than stick powders.  Why this is, is a mystery to me, though I've read that using magnum primers with ball powders may improve accuracy.

I do agree totally with what jmdavis posted here, in that for M1 Garand loading, powder charges that are +- 0.1 or even +-0.2 grains is plenty precise enough, even for sub MOA ammo (not that I've ever seen a Garand which can shoot sub MOA with any ammo, though I'm told such rifles do exist).

If you think about it from a math perspective, if you're loading 45-48 grains of powder in a 30-06 case, even a variance of 0.2 grains represents 4/10ths of one percent at most.  If you're trying to make benchrest quality ammo, and you're uniforming primer pockets and cleaning out flash holes and turning necks and carefully bumping shoulders and inside reaming when necessary and carefully trimming every round and sorting cases by weight and sorting bullets by ogive to base length (and on and on), then MAYBE you'd notice that powder variance on the target.

To put it another way, an extra (or too little) 0.2 grains of powder represents maybe 10 FPS out of the muzzle.  That difference translates to about 0.3 inches at 400 yards.  There are so many other factors that make a much bigger difference on the target that I wouldn't worry about your powder charge variance in the slightest.

[Sightwolf]

OK!  So the question is, "Are you feeling lucky today? Well, are you?!"  You can play withfire only so long before you get burned!

At the moment there are 4 Garands in my safe. The oldest one is Springfield made before WWII and rebuilt at RRA (Red River Arsenal) in 1943. I got it from DCM  in 1982. It is also the most used of the 4. I've been attending the Nationals at Camp Perry for 30 years and have frequented the DCM/CMP armorers' trailer as much as possible sice day one. If you shut up, watch & listen, you learn from the best. In my case, it was the now retired Chief Instructor Armorer out of Rock Island Arsenal in the middle of the Mississippi river. He's probably forgotten more than most of us will ever know.

That being said,  if you are either lazy or suicidal or both,  look for shortcuts when loading for the Garand. They will inevitably come back to bite you. I've personally witnessed it happen. If, on the other hand, you wish to retain all of your original body parts in proper working condition, and keep the M-1 in it's intended shape, take some time and pay attention!

John C. was undoubtedly a reclusive genius. However, he did design a couple of shortcomings into the M-1 which he corrected, for the most part, in the M-14. The biggest single problem,  while not evident at the time, was the operating gas port pressure required to make the rifle function semi-automatically. Be advised, the .30/06, the 7.62x51mm NATO (almost but not exactly a .308 Win.) and the 5.56x45mm (almost but not exactly a.223 Rem.) were all developed using non-canister grade ( but close enough for government work) IMR-4895!  Spherical or ball powders did not exist in the case of the first,  and was in it's infancy going into the 2nd & 3rd.
It was found that the M-1 would work just fine with IMR or H-4895 or AA-2495,  IMR or H-4198, or IMR or H-4064.
ANY OTHER POWDERS DO NOT OPERATE WITHIN THE GAS PORT PRESSURE OF THE RIFE AND CAN LEAD TO DAMAGE OR DESTRUCTION OF THE RIFLE AND INJURY OR DEATH TO THE OPERATOR!

The first victim of excessive port pressure is usually the operating rod. Bent out of shape and usually peened where the bolt rides in it.  If that's the only casualty, you're still looking at over $100. replacement cost if you can find a serviceable U.S.G.I. part. It only gets worse from there. Bolts & bolt parts, stocks, handguards, trigger group parts, or worse case scenario, barrels and or receivers.

I've been a licensed armorer for over 40 years and I'm also a medic. I've repaired more firearms than shooters,  fortunately.  But picking pieces of wood, steel & brass out of the face, arms and hands of a careless reloader is one thing I don't enjoy doing.

I've got a Dillon XL650 with all the whistles & bells. I don't use it to load rifle ammo. I do use some Dillon equipment for prepping rifle cases, and do the final seating on the 650, using a Bonanza micrometer bench rest seating die, but beyond that,  everything is done the old fashioned way.

Uncle actually loaded "machine gun" .30/06 ammo  with a non-cannister grade ball powder during Viet Nam, then sold pulled surplus stuff to the unsuspecting public through DCM/CMP until reports of M-1 blowups stated getting back to them. (Avoid LC-70> headstamped stuff with obvious link marks on the brass!) While the m.g.s could handle the pressure, the M-1s sure couldn't!

Old John corrected this problem  for the most part on the M-14 by redesigning the gas system to be self-regulating. This , too, was fine, until the Frankensteins of propellant design went off the deep end.  I personally witnessed the demise of a NM M-14 & 2 M1A Super Matches by the same shooter in one day using an early batch of expperimental "light magnum" factory ammo!  It cost megabucks to repair and resulted in a warning label on the ammo, "not for use in semi auto or lever rifles."

So, what is your rifle, or more important, your health & well being worth to you?!

BTW,  ball powder accelerates throat erosion & barrel wear!  Even a cheap barrel isn't worth it!

[airplanejoe]

I still don't understand the reason why so many of us are trying to load "the perfect bullet".  Agrivere is on the mark with his last post.

""If you think about it from a math perspective, if you're loading 45-48 grains of powder in a 30-06 case, even a variance of 0.2 grains represents 4/10ths of one percent at most.  If you're trying to make benchrest quality ammo, and you're uniforming primer pockets and cleaning out flash holes and turning necks and carefully bumping shoulders and inside reaming when necessary and carefully trimming every round and sorting cases by weight and sorting bullets by ogive to base length (and on and on), then MAYBE you'd notice that powder variance on the target.""

AND, if you do manage to load that perfect bullet, do you own the perfect rifle? Do you have perfect technique? I'm told that variances in point of impact downrange are affected by bullet, rifle and shooter. Not to mention weather factors; and others. I can't say with any certainty that my poor scores are a result of imperfect bullets. 

The few benchrest shooters at my club that I've talked to and watched, tell me that benchrest bullets are very time consuming (not difficult if you have the time and equipment)to load. If that is what Joe Shooter enjoys, more power to him.

One particular club member is a dedicated handloader. He spends hours loading 25 rounds, takes copious notes, drives to the range. Chronographs each bullet, takes copious notes, carefully archives all his data in a way that's easily retrieved, makes corrections, loads again and the cycle repeats. He's been doing that for years and has thousand of pages of notes and data. That is what satisfies him, great, beats spending the afternoon at Wally World trying to spot Elvis.

We had a saying in military aviation that goes something like this: "Why measure with a micrometer if you are going to mark it with a grease pencil and cut it with an axe".

In liberty, aj

[jmdavis]

A well built and maintained M1 with a good shooter is certainly capable of holding and shooting 1 moa groups. But the real reason for precision in reloading (and all things), is that quality makes us feel better and helps us to trust our tools more.

My 600 yard AR loads are with .02gr of each other for a 23.7 gr load. That is the point that I found which was simple, repeatable and more than accurate enough to do the job at that distance. By not having any questions about the accuracy of my ammo, I can better focus on the precision of my shots.

That being said, I am comfortable loading my sub 400 yard ammo to within +-.1 gr for a 23.6 load. Some excellent shooters have proven that such loads are more than capable of winning national championships.

One will never load "the perfect" round of ammunition. But good is in degrees and those degrees are determined by the intended use and the shooter. With the 30 cal closer than 1k yards, I would think that +-.1 is good enough. At 1k yards or for an IMPORTANT use, I might want my loads closer to the intended weight, but the reason for that is not so much the rounds themselves as the confidence that they instill.

While somewhat enjoyable, for me reloading is the work that I have to do to keep shooting. My records are complete but focus on the important details. I found it much better to spend my time shooting and focusing on shooting than on 0gr accuracy in reloading.

[airplanejoe]

jmdavis posted: " I found it much better to spend my time shooting and focusing on shooting than on 0gr accuracy in reloading. "

Me: I couldn't have said it better.

In liberty, aj

[navybowhunter]

Appreciate all the responses.  Thanks everyone for taking the time to do so. 

My Garand receiver is a May 1942 Springfield, that was rehabilitated by James River Armory and I want to keep it in operating condition for sure.

Has anyone tried that aftermarket gas plug, supposed to relieve some of the pressure thereby protecting the wear on the operating rod?

R/
Chris

[airplanejoe]

G'day folks,

The mailman just delivered my copy of Swat magazine (Oct 2014). It has two articles that addresses topics that I've seen recently in the forum. One is regarding handloading, the other about choosing a scope. Both articles are worth reading. While I don't drink all the kool aid that appears in print, I read. I always learn something; if nothing else I learn that I didn't learn anything.

In liberty, aj

[Long Shot]

A few thoughts from a new rifleman.
1.) - The only perfect round is a round that is exactly the same as the round before and after it.
2.) - I have found that if I want to have precise loads and know for sure that I am going get it every time I must put every load on the scale.
3.) - Trying to get MOA or SUB-MOA out of a military rifle is kinda like swallowing camels and straining at gnats, these rifles were made to hit man size targets at range, not pencil sized targets.

I do understand your plight though - if its worth reloading-its worth doing the best you can.

[jmdavis]

I can virtually guarantee that if you are making good M1 reloads a difference of +- .1 grain of powder won't make a discernible difference in group size or shape. You will have far more benefit from careful sling placement and tension than that .1 gr. You will have way more benefit from good trigger control than that .1 grain.

But in the end, you can make it as complex as you like. You are the judge of what is the best use of your time.