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Ar10 info, and more!

Started by 509gman, June 21, 2014, 04:16:54 AM

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509gman

June 21, 2014, 04:16:54 AM Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 05:03:23 AM by 509gman
Ak topic was getting derailed into ar10 territory, so I (not unselfishly) decided to start this thread. I'm thinking about what to get for my next .308. Ar10 is on the list of consideration, so is an m1a variant, and fal's intrigue me. I want a scope (not in scout position) and am willing to sacrifice some long range ability for a little more agility and portability. Which ar10, m1a would you choose or what about the fal (don't know much about them)? Opinions on the socom 16/II? Scout squad (squad scout? I dunno)? Heck, who's shot a SCAR 17?
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

509gman

#1
June 21, 2014, 04:35:10 AM
Forgot to mention I want to reload, so if anythings hard on brass, it's a minus. Fisherdawg, feel free to chime in here, too!
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

Two Wolves

#2
June 21, 2014, 10:49:24 AM
POF 308--20 in. barrel

It'll eat anything--likes steel

They use machine gun barrels for their rifles. 

:cool2:
A moral compass provides a basis for making decisions; an action is good or bad, right or wrong when viewed in the light of the individual's moral bearing. If no moral compass exists for the individual, then decisions and actions are made on the basis of purely subjective thoughts. This leads to "If it makes me happy, or makes me feel good, or if it's something I simply want to do, then it is right and good."

509gman

#3
June 21, 2014, 02:41:21 PM
Sheeh! That msrp! Nice rifle but I've got a wife to convince.
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

james76

#4
June 21, 2014, 07:13:30 PM
 I would say read Bostons Gun Bible first . That should help you make the right choice.

Big John

#5
June 21, 2014, 07:57:53 PM
Don't get a short barreled .308. The amount of accuracy and range sacrificed for a couple less inches is too much.

The M1A is one of the best rifles out of the box for KD stuff. Put a sling on the swivels, and off you go. Optics are harder to mount
on them due to the receiver design. It can be done, but part of the glory of that rifle is the iron sights. Does not mutilate brass.
The "loaded" one has better sights, and the match ones have better barrels and such. I have a standard, and it will do 2MOA all day.

The HK91 and PTR91 are semi auto G3s. The triggers are awful, but can be made better. Optics have to mount via claw mount, which
dings up the receiver, but works. Dents brass up bad and puts them into the next zip code to your forward right.

There's always a .308 Garand, but you'd have to rig a side scope for it.

There's a rifle called the FNAR, made by FNH. It is the civilian BAR, with a pistol grip stock, rails, and box mags up to 20. It is very
accurate, and scopes mount nicely on the optic rail. It is a solid beast of a rifle, but with many tiny parts. Field stripped, it breaks down into
26 parts.

The SCARS are new plastic fantastic stocks and apparently are awesome. I would not get a SCAR16 due to awesome AR15 offerings.
However, a tricked out 17 may be better than an AR-10.

AR-10s have a proven design, but very little aftermarket commonality, unlike AR-15s.

The FAL is similar to the G3, but I think it has better sights and ergo.

I own a FNAR, HK91, M1A and a Garand, along with a couple AR-15s in various calibers. If you want a very accurate, but not too robust rifle,
I'd go for the FNAR. Money to burn, SCAR or tricked out AR-10. Some money and you don't mind irons, M1A. Budget, then get a parts kit FAL,
or a PTR91. The CMP Garand is also very respectable, and it's the patriotic thing to do. For the record, the M1A and Garand shoot, to me, about
the same, just the loading is different.

fisherdawg

#6
June 21, 2014, 09:04:16 PM
+1 on Boston's Gun Bible -- can borrow my copy if you like. With 168 gr Brazilian all I had to do was dial in the standard come ups to be on paper at 600.  Love the Garand. FAL & M1A are not easy on brass.
As for optics on M1 M1A there are options for optics both scout and receiver mounts, but with certain limitations.
I know my shooting can progress a lot further on irons, so may a while before I go to glass.  Ah, so many great options in .30 cal, I'd like them all.
If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. (James Madison)

"Young man, what we meant in going for those Redcoats was this: we always had governed ourselves and we always meant to. They didn't mean we should."
(Captain Levi Preston, of the Danvers militia, at age 91, remembering the day)

That it is an indispensable duty which we owe to God, our country, ourselves and posterity, by all lawful ways and means in our power to maintain, defend and preserve those civil and religious rights and liberties, for which many of our fathers fought, bled and died, and to hand them down entire to future generations.  Suffolk Resolves, September 9, 1774, attributed to Dr. Joseph Warren

Mudcat

#7
June 21, 2014, 10:16:04 PM
I have had over the years trying to find that 1 rifle that did it for me 2 AR10s a DPMS and a Rock River both were crap in my book I had reliability issues out of both that I could not get worked out. I have had friends with the AR10 platform and they too had issues with reliability. I have had them on the line again reliability issues.
I purchased an FNAR and had pieces break on it of course FN wanted me to send it back to them and would not send me the $14 piece I needed and would not send me a spare when I sent it to them. I vowed no more FN for me.
In the mean time I had 10,000 pulled M80 bullets I wanted to fire out of something. I built a 300 black out and processed my own brass and loaded them. It performed flawlessly great rifle not not really a tack driver at 500 yards but very surprising with the right loads and fully KD capable. I ran nearly all of those bullets through that rifle and loved it. Bullets aren't as cheap anymore so I am back with a Colt 6920 for my rifle, no complaints at all.
If I had to buy a .308 rifle today it would be a PTR91 I have shot one a few times and really enjoyed it. I don't fit well with an M1 the mag just hits me wrong for some reason.
Just my .02 and own personal first hand experience.
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
--George Washington

DEH

#8
June 21, 2014, 11:10:50 PM Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 11:15:57 PM by DEH
A picture speaks a thousand words.

/_________ See Avatar
\   


This:  M25     http://www.lrbarms.com/m14riflesstandard.html
This:    http://www.sageinternationalltd.com/SIL/M14ALCS.html
This:   http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/vx-r-patrol/vx-r-patrol-3-9x40mm-30mm/                                   
-Appleseed: '08-IBC, '09-Red Hat, '09-FT Stewart, '10-RBC, '24,'26 IBC

KD '09, '10, '11, '14, '15, '16, '22, "25. RFKD '25. Pistoleer '24.

-2Cor10:4-5. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, & bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

-Eph6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world forces of this moral darkness and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Big John

#9
June 21, 2014, 11:12:31 PM
Guess I'll have to bring my FNAR so it can redeem itself to Mudcat to the Evansville area KD portion next week.

fepowered

#10
June 21, 2014, 11:38:50 PM
I have owned several Armalite AR10Bs and DPMS LR308s over the years.  I had zero reliability issues with any of them and all had acceptable accuracy.  Regarding filling the bill for agility and portability along with retaining accuracy, I would recommend a Remington R25 (DPMS pattern).  It is the lightest 20" AR you are going to find (7.75#) and it takes commonly found Magpul PMAGs in the LR/SR pattern. They are accurate and reliable and just as easy and cheap as any other AR to change the stock if you want something different.
"Today, we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are
willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."

509gman

#11
June 22, 2014, 12:27:05 AM
Of course a CMP Garand is on the list, but that'll remain (mostly) stock. I'm looking for a scoped .308 "battle rifle" "GPCR" or what have you. Didn't get to shoot but have seen and touched the reissued m14 with sage ebr stock, anyone else have an opinion on that stock?
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

Mark Davis

#12
June 22, 2014, 07:02:57 AM
I have a Remington R 25,
It does have a solid butstock and rifle length forend.
It works fine with commerical .308 ammo.
It has function issues when fed 7.62 ammo.
Remington claimes "crisp single stage trigger" I dispute that, and installed a trigger by rock river.
The camo job is a soft, dipped type. The rifle will have use patina early in life.

RedFox24

#13
June 22, 2014, 10:25:11 AM
DPMS LR308 Classic, zero problems, love it but it is heavy. I go between a scope and shooting it with irons depending on what mood I am in.   No problems with reloaded ammo and I load to the light end of the book.  Shoots good with all my pills, not near as picky as my Savage 10. An 18 inch barrel is a minimum IMO, shorter has issues at range from what I have observed.
"Preparedness is not an event.  It's a continuous process." 
Dr. Julie Gerberding, Director, CDC

eaglescouter

#14
June 22, 2014, 01:07:39 PM
Quote from: RedFox24 on June 22, 2014, 10:25:11 AM
DPMS LR308 Classic, zero problems, love it but it is heavy. I go between a scope and shooting it with irons depending on what mood I am in.   No problems with reloaded ammo and I load to the light end of the book.  Shoots good with all my pills, not near as picky as my Savage 10. An 18 inch barrel is a minimum IMO, shorter has issues at range from what I have observed.

I have 2 LR308's.  Both had significant feeding problems which were resolved by breaking in with hot loads with a greased bolt carrier group, followed by stoning the resulting bright spots on the bolt carrier group.  However this behavior/problem with DPMS uppers is not unique to their 308's as I had similar experiences with 2 chambered in 223.
Old Guy:  Do it long enough and you get really good at it.

Rifleman:  Sacramento:  Four Ought Nine
Full Distance:  Red Bluff:  What year was that?
Pistoleer:  Hat Creek:  Three Twenty One

Make yourselves good scouts and good rifle shots in order to protect the women and children of your country if it should ever become necessary.
--Lord Baden-Powell
Scouting for Boys (1908)

henschman

#15
June 22, 2014, 05:47:36 PM
I have gone down this same road.  I had a couple M-14s... loved them, but wanted something more optics-friendly.  I put together a custom DPMS LR-308 with a Criterion chrome lined barrel, and had reliability issues I am still working through.  I also recently picked up a S&W M&P 10, which definitely fits the criteria of "light and portable," being about 7.75 lbs., and has a great light-profile nitrided barrel that is ideal for a battle rifle, but it has reliability issues as well.  The  SCAR  17 is very nice, but I've only ever seen them with 16" barrels, which is just too short for me.  The new DPMS GII LR-308 AP4 has the same issue, but otherwise looks solid.  I am kind of picky when it comes to barrels -- I want light profile, at least 18", and either nitrided or chrome lined.  This really limits my options. 

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819

james76

#16
June 22, 2014, 07:01:04 PM
A standard M1a with iron sights will out shoot most owners. As for the sage ebr stock save the $800 for ammo and a appleseed.

slim

#17
June 22, 2014, 09:46:39 PM
Quote from: 509gman on June 22, 2014, 12:27:05 AMhave seen and touched the reissued m14 with sage ebr stock, anyone else have an opinion on that stock?
My homey from the north had one and said he just could not get it to shoot consistently. Something about the harmonics or balance or who knows what. Ended up selling it to fund a LMT purchase and hasn't looked back. My other homey from closer to home runs the LaRue Predatar. Both of these fellers were smacking center mass at 500 with surplus ball and made it look easy. Neither have reported reliability issues. (yet)

Personally, I like the HK/PTRs. As a "cheap" AR guy, they get me close enough in the ergonomics department and they're light as far as .308s go. They're absolutely the wrong rifle for your purpose but I bet they'd make the transition from $650 AR-15 to $1500 M-1A a lot more comfortable with the stopover at $1000. Get one, shoot it for a bit, then trade up for the M-1A.

If I had the money to go big, I'd buy the SCAR or get the platform DEH has in his avatar pic. Not knocking you personally but most modern Americans aren't tough enough to lug around .308 kit all day long. As such, every pound you can shave off your kit will help.

henschman

#18
June 22, 2014, 10:06:13 PM
My friend has an EBR-stocked M1A.  It certainly shoots well... once it's torqued down into that chassis it is basically action bedded with a free floated barrel... but it just adds too much weight to the rifle for my tastes, to the point that it would be unpleasant to take into the field for me.  My GI 22" barreled M-14 weighed 8.5 lbs. in a SAI plastic stock... his 18" barreled Scout weighed 12 or 13 lbs. in that Sage, and that was without optics or anything.  Then again, he has taken it to the Pecos Run 'n Gun (6+ mile run through the desert with 6 shooting stations) twice and did fine.  Of course he's used to carrying an M-240... also, he has a homemade biathlon sling that carries the rifle backpack-style.
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819

509gman

#19
June 23, 2014, 12:11:42 AM
^^^  ;D   Me likey backpack sling! Used to hump the pig too. Surprisingly I miss having her around. (Nothing dirty here;) I'm kinda giving the ptr another look. Anything else almost seems to be as expensive as a SCAR, which I would get if it came to spending that kind of money.  Still don't like what it does to brass tho. Guess imma have to shoot some rifles before I decide.

A question on practical accuracy and barrel length. My actual chances of shooting 1000m targets are low, the only range capable is about 100 miles away so maybe once or twice a year. Real world context (for giggles) an 800m shot is unlikely. So I'm not looking for a purpose built 1000m rifle, just would like to play out there every once and awhile. I'm leaning towards an 18" barrel, does anyone have an opinion?
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

509gman

#20
June 23, 2014, 12:15:33 AM
I'm an orange hat, and I used to carry machine guns for a living but if agree lighter within reason is better.
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

509gman

#21
June 23, 2014, 01:03:33 AM
Now that I know magpul makes prs tacks for ptrs/fals they're looking up a bit!
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

azmule

#22
June 23, 2014, 01:38:47 AM
Just out of curiosity, why not a scout mount?  Sure it looks "funny," but sight-axis is kept  closer to the bore, optics are out of the way of the action (a big plus on M1/M1A), faster target acquisition, better field of view - the only real downside is the limited choice in manufacturer/reticule options in long eye-relief scopes.
Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.

Do or do not - there is no "try."'  -Yoda

509gman

#23
June 23, 2014, 01:53:37 AM
Exactly that reason. Jus found out about the tacpro cheek risers tho, liking the idea of a scout squad with one of those. I need to find some rifles to try before I buy!
"What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
Last words of Union Gen. John Sedgwick, before he was killed by a Confederate sniper.

RODGE

#24
June 23, 2014, 09:29:39 AM
My July/August issue of RIFLESHOOTER features an article on the new DPMSII in .308.  Also, Ruger has introduced an SR-762 in .308 Winchester.  And lastly, Shooting Times in July issue has a good article on Windham Weaponry's .308 SRC AND a article on a ultralite 10/22 build.
What we allow is what will continue!

What have you done for LIBERTY today?

henschman

#25
June 23, 2014, 11:27:19 AM
^^ All 16" barrels though!  Really I don't mind the ballistics on the 16"... they will make it out to 800 + yards OK... it's just that they have quite a bit of muzzle blast.  For someone who will probably be hunting hogs with it as well as keeping it for 2A purposes, which for me means taking shots without ear pro in the woods, the muzzle blast is not a welcome addition.  18" is a lot better in that regard.  If you don't have any use for the rifle that involves shooting sans ear pro, you may be able to go shorter without caring bough.
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819

Big John

#26
June 23, 2014, 01:02:24 PM
In my opinion, the fraction of a pound the extra barrel steel weighs, and the extra 2 inches, is not worth the penalty of decreased range.

George63

#27
June 23, 2014, 01:53:33 PM
Quote from: Big John on June 23, 2014, 01:02:24 PM
In my opinion, the fraction of a pound the extra barrel steel weighs, and the extra 2 inches, is not worth the penalty of decreased range.

my compromise was 18 inches on an OBR

175gr hand loads can stay supersonic to 1000 with a 16 inch barrel - realistically, who is shooting that distance with any regularity any way? and if you do a bolt gun would be a more likely choice

Two Wolves

#28
June 23, 2014, 02:27:51 PM
Quote from: 509gman on June 21, 2014, 02:41:21 PM
Sheeh! That msrp! Nice rifle but I've got a wife to convince.

Buy it once--keep it for life!   :cool2:

Absolutely no issues, problems, complaints
A moral compass provides a basis for making decisions; an action is good or bad, right or wrong when viewed in the light of the individual's moral bearing. If no moral compass exists for the individual, then decisions and actions are made on the basis of purely subjective thoughts. This leads to "If it makes me happy, or makes me feel good, or if it's something I simply want to do, then it is right and good."

DEH

#29
June 23, 2014, 02:42:49 PM
Quote from: 509gman on June 22, 2014, 12:27:05 AM
Of course a CMP Garand is on the list, but that'll remain (mostly) stock. I'm looking for a scoped .308 "battle rifle" "GPCR" or what have you. Didn't get to shoot but have seen and touched the reissued m14 with sage ebr stock, anyone else have an opinion on that stock?

It is absolutely the bomb diggity bomb when it comes to turning an M14 into a tackdriver.  Not only are the groups tight (sub moa), but they are consistent.  No more wandering zeroes.

As long as you don't mind a 15 pound rifle that is.
-Appleseed: '08-IBC, '09-Red Hat, '09-FT Stewart, '10-RBC, '24,'26 IBC

KD '09, '10, '11, '14, '15, '16, '22, "25. RFKD '25. Pistoleer '24.

-2Cor10:4-5. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, & bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

-Eph6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world forces of this moral darkness and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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