AAR: Corona, CA 19/20Mar11

[CSHR]

The weekend was supposed to start by raining Friday night and going on into the weekend....it didn't.
Saturday it was overcast and did this odd thing of getting cold when you took off your jacket because it was warming up, so you put the jacket back on and the sun reappeared..go figure No rain. Great shooters. Wonderful people.

We also had the threat of "Nuclear Fallout" so that kept a few signups from coming. To the people of Japan, who suffered the earthquake and tsunami, my thoughts and well wishes are with you at this difficult time. To anyone who has not had the chance to visit this island nation you are missing a phenomenal country and people.


The latest arrivals signing in and getting their name tags on


Saturdays line with a gaggle of instructors


Brass Chucker explaining IMC to the shooters...and doing a great job of it too

So far this picture has taken15 minutes to get half way downloaded..


I don't have internet access so I use the local library to use it's wifi and it's taking a really long time to get these 'hosted' pictures to download so that I can post them 

OK, so now, I've three choices:
The first is to stand up and scream at all the people in here to quit watching their silly movies and music on the library computers and sucking up all the bloody band width so that I can do this AAR.
This is what I really want to do just to see the look on their faces but I've been warned by friends that this community doesn't have a very good sense of humor and probably won't realize that my needs come first           

This means I must select option number two, which is to sit here forever while the system takes it's own sweet time to do the download, or option number three, which is to call a halt to this madness and go find another place to do the work. The next closest place was the college's guest site but that now requires a log on. So I get to go looking for free wifi to finish this posting, which means tomorrow or the next day. My apologies to all of you who wait with baited breath for the photo's to see just how good you look.

Yeah, I'm done, stick a fork in me...in the time I took to dream all this typing up it's still only half way through the 3MB dnld and not appearing to be moving at all....and I might scream anyway   

CSHR

P.S. Feel free to add your own pictures to this.

[Freeman]

I'm still formatting the pictures for this thread. In the meantime, I have the first thirty or so images up.

Gallery: http://goo.gl/bBXbP
Slideshow: http://goo.gl/kigp2

Here are some of the pics:

Wow! This Appleseed stuff works!


Penny's Dad showing everyone how the sling is done.


Dave and his perfect trigger pull.


Romel showing off his new AR-style .22 LR.


Alex perfecting his standing steady hold factors.


Nathan, Megan and Trevor taking in the 3 Strikes during lunchtime on Saturday.


CSHR telling us about the fish he caught. Either that or he was giving the Third Strike of the match.


Brett and BrassChucker getting ready for the next string of fire.


The right side of Sunday's line. Jillian, in the foreground, gave everyone else a run for their money all day. We're pretty sure she's a natural.


Rich and CSHR adjusting sights after the IMC presenation.


Maddy (AQT Monster) about to give a stirring telling of the wedding day that never was.


Penny's Dad explaining the course of fire for the AQT.


Justin teaching the steady hold factors for the standing position while Penny's Dad models.


Heat shows us he still has the Rifleman skill.

See the gallery link above for more photos.

[CSHR]

Brass Chucker explaining IMC to the shooters...and doing a great job of it too



Hezikiah Wyman himself explaining just why it's not nice to mess with his family


The enthralled audience......well maybe..


AAHHHH the line in prone with their keeper uummmm instructor


The left side anchored by Brett, quiet and determined


The brothers, Danny, Alex, and Dave..


Megan our designated sniper, dad Nathan, and Trevor the older brother..


Candid shots of the photographer


Saturday..who made Colonel Morgan proud 


Our Luther Burbank Awards


Dave the Rifleman patch being awarded..good shooting!!


AQT Monster and the IMC


Congratulations Freeman!! Shoot Boss awarded by LayLoPro


Running out of batter power...see more pictures later

[DirtyDan13]

Thank you all for all the great instruction. I came into this shoot with a ton of bad habits, and with instruction I received I feel much more confident in my abilities as a shooter. Congrats to Justin and Freeman on their green hats, Romeo on his orange hat, and all who made rifleman this weekend!

[Rocket Man]

Is that... the Wearin' o' the Green I see?     Congratulations!

[TaosGlock]

Congrats on a great shoot guys!

[Freeman]

Yup! Double trouble this time. Justin made it as well. We got them in right under the wire for April 19th 

Is that... the Wearin' o' the Green I see?     Congratulations!

[LayloPro]

OK, I do have to wonder about some stuff......

Chris, why isn't your picture fixed yet??!!??
Are you busy at work, or something??!!??!

CSHR, who is Luther Burbank??  Never heard of him!!

This was not only a great shoot (9Sat/8Sun shooters) with 4 new RM, and one returning -multiple- re qualifier, but also a -FUN- shoot.......

We had 3 brothers who walked in shooting well within 3-4 MOA from the get-go; One could only make Saturday, and one brother shot the 1st 50/50 on stage 4 I have ever seen, and his other brother brought in a good score for RM on Sunday. Shame the one could only make one day....if he had come back, I think we could have made a "Perfecta-TriFecta" for their family!!

a family of Dad, son & daughter......and the daughter was the most persistent, accurate of the bunch, until we got the others squared away with loaners......

A teen lad who was quiet, attentive, and applied what he learned without any fuss (why couldn't I have had -these- kids??)

A returning young fellow who has taken the "challenge" personally, and was intent on not only improving himself, but seeing what he could do to improve others as well.....

On Sunday, we had a returning father/daughter combo who were a delight to work with again....big improvements from them both!!

Also, a returning RM & his Dad, and an "Army buddy" who had to "un-learn" some old stuff, then learn/apply some "new stuff", and responded with a great score in the afternoon....and he earned it, lemme tell ya!!

And, we got to hang some green hats on some very deserving red hats......

I can't think of much else better than that.....can you?

And let me extend a warm welcome to these folks, and hope they can come back & be around for some more Cali growth....

Sooooo.......how was your weekend?

LLP

[CSHR]

Third times a charm they say...so here we go..

Justin being awarded his Green Hat(Shoot Boss Qualified) too!



It's here where I get to say CONGRATULATIONS!!!! to both Freeman, aka Chris, and Justin, aka Justin, in completing their requirements to become AS Shoot Bosses       

Sunday turned out to be colder all day and started a drizzle/rain late in the day. Everyone appeared to have a good time learning, making new friends and listening to the history and heritage of our forefathers. Turned out to be the kind of people who stayed and helped us break down the target stands, EZups, repack the cars and shake hands until the next time.

Here we have Hezakiah assisting Robert Shurtlif  (go read your history again or come back to another AS shoot)


Penny's Dad explaining the AQT


Sunday's line, left to right


Dan, Heath, Rick, interesting how the left side of the line is our two Army guys (thanks for your duty) and Heath's dad 


Gillian and her dad Eric (USMC&thank you too, both of you Gillian for sharing his time for our country)


It's not unusual to hear complaints of how sore and stiff the muscles are, how tired people are, cold, wet, hungry, etc....neither of our young ladies, or for that matter the young men complained...they reloaded and shot and got ready for the next round of instruction and shooting. I have been extremely pleased to be a part of families like these for my past few SB assignments. They remind me of the families of 1775 polite, determined, hard working, self-reliant, intelligent, respectful, happy, ..

Romel, Danny & Dave, our right side of the line..



And our "Rifleman" scores for the Sunday shooting..with "Rifleman" patches and rockers and "California" rockers presented by Justin

Heath who is re-qualifying and the rain in the background..


Danny, brother of Dave who qualified on Sat, and had to leave to go back to Texas for school, and is now interested in adding their 'rocker' to the 'California' rocker he got here


Remember the 'left side of our line'? Well this is Dan, our Army gentleman, and his Rifleman patch presentation..happy that Heath hadn't out shot him 


Romel, high score of the day at 238, shot without the aid of a sling..found out his sling would affect his impact position by pulling on the barrel


Romel, after shooting his Rifleman score and attending his second Appleseed and expected to fit in with the Inland Empire group, getting his Orange Hat

[DocBach]

Was Romel shooting with an AR without a free-floating rail system?

[CSHR]

DocBach,
I didn't inspect it real closely, it was the .22 and although it did appear free floating it would effect the POI when the sling was snug on his support arm. and I didn't want to argue with his groups... only lacked consistency through out the entire AQT, which he finally honed.



LLP

Yeah Yeah....Blanchard was the kid with the piccolo at the North Bridge...tough enough character

and Burbank was the guy responsible for a massive amount of invention/discovery/development in plant biology in the late 1800's and early 1900's, from Santa Rosa, CA

"During his career, Burbank introduced more than 800 new varieties of plants -- including over 200 varieties of fruits, many vegetables, nuts and grains, and hundreds of ornamental flowers."
http://ci.santa-rosa.ca.us/departments/recreationandparks/parks/lbhg/Pages/default.aspx

AND

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Burbank
"Burbank created hundreds of new varieties of fruits (plum, pear, prune, peach, blackberry, raspberry); potato, tomato; ornamental flowers and other plants.[4]
Fruits
    * 113 plums and prunes
    * 35 fruiting cacti
    * 16 blackberries
    * 13 raspberries
    * 11 quinces
    * 11 plumcots
    * Ten cherries
    * Ten strawberries
    * Ten apples
    * Eight peaches
    * Six chestnuts
    * Five nectarines
    * Four grapes
    * Four pears
    * Three walnut
    * Two figs
    * One almond

Grains, grasses, forage
* Nine types
Vegetables
* 26 types[citation needed]
Ornamentals
* 91 types[citation needed]"

Sure glad somebody reads what I type......and gives me another chance to educate y'all

    CSHR

[Romeo]

First of all, I would like to thank you all for hosting a great appleseed and welcoming me aboard as a Orange Hat Jockey  

Was Romel shooting with an AR without a free-floating rail system?

My rifle was a S&W M&P15-22LR with Magpul Original Equipment Stock, Folding sights, and pistol grip.  I added a Redfield 3-9x40mm scope, Weaver Rings, and  Homemade RIS QD sling swivel.

Timeline of events regarding my rifle:
-Purchased rifle for $600, had major issues with bolt catch.  Bolt catch gets stuck inside the bolt, causing it to not operate correctly.  Fixed with a roll pin cut down to space the bolt catch detent correctly.
-Bolt catch now does not get caught up onto the bolt, but now is very sensitive, and slams forward on the slightest touch.  
-Went to appleseed, learned how to use a sling.  On Saturday 3-19, I discovered that the sling on the RIS System causes point of impact shifts to the left.  My scope was dialed in center mass, but when using a tight sling, all my groups when to the left of all my targets.  I sawed off the plastic ring on the front of my RIS *a friction fit part that was the only thing not free floating on that barrel/ handguard*, and proceeded to shoot more AQTs the rest of Saturday
-Reviewed Fred's guide to shooting a rifle, where it states 20% of accuracy comes from proper use of sling, which I cannot use since of the above problems  
-On one stage, while removing the chamber flag on my rifle, the sensitive bolt slams forward, breaking the extractor off my bolt and sending it into the wild blue yonder, never to be seen again    Luckily, I read of this problem on the web, and replaced it with a spare I had on hand
-Someway, some how, with my obnoxiously long magazines preventing my left elbow from getting in proper position and lack of slings, managed to score Rifleman on the AQT on Sunday    
-Gave up and called S&W on Monday.  Will need to send the rifle in to get it fixed  



All and all, I'm still mad that people rocking $200 Ruger 10/22 spent a third of money on their rifles and for the most part did better than me    A fool and his money soon separated, right?





ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?  IS THIS NOT WHAT YOU'RE HERE FOR?!

Here are some of my pictures.  Fun times

This one's for Jackie, who was at home sick and was unable to attend this time around






The beautiful Californian Landscape right behind the range



Nailed him right in the spleen!


This is Judy. I've had Judy since last year, and since I've got her, she suffered several major breakdowns, is difficult to work with, is somewhat unreliable, refuses to be tied down, and almost always has a screw loose somewhere. She has very expensive taste, the first $200 piece of bling didn't do, so I had buy her another type of glass.

On the plus side, Judy is slim, sexy, unique, and help me earn my rifleman's badge, and saved me from getting my arse kicked by Madi for not earning it sooner.


Justin awarding me an Orange Hat


Since Madi is a good friend of mine and volunteered to score my winning AQT, I wanted to take a picture with her.  We asked Ian with the simple task of taking one or two good pictures, but instead, he pretty much dumped the mag on us with my camera, taking about ~50 shots at us.  After depleting the camera's batteries and capacity, this was pretty much the only decent one 




The rest of the photos  
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2077672&id=1373531778&l=f519c53078

[DirtyDan13]

Great pics guys and thanks for the kind words. I am planning to shoot the June Appleseed event here in Texas, the April 16-17 is already full 

Oh well, it'll give me some time to practice, because I'll be using my other rifle for it

http://img34.imageshack.us/i/60615334.jpg/

No magnification on that Aimpoint, just the red dot. Hope I can add a Texas rocker

[Romeo]

Great pics guys and thanks for the kind words. I am planning to shoot the June Appleseed event here in Texas, the April 16-17 is already full 

Oh well, it'll give me some time to practice, because I'll be using my other rifle for it

http://img34.imageshack.us/i/60615334.jpg/

No magnification on that Aimpoint, just the red dot. Hope I can add a Texas rocker

Dan, you and your brothers did great!  The fact that your brother got a rifleman's badge and a high score was the reason why I was so motivated to get my own the following day.  Couldn't of done it without him 

And that is a sweet AR rig you got there.  Everything you need, nothing you don't.  If you ever need a magnified scope, I whole heatedly recommend Redfield 3-9x40mm, which I used at appleseed last weekend.  Survived the cold and the rain, made in the USA, lifetime warranty, and only $160 

[LayloPro]

Romol.....you never said your camera was operating with a Cali "restricted mag cap".....

Mine doesn't have that issue....and since neither you, or Maddie would stand still, taking a "decent shot" was kind of a "catch as catch can" thing.......

However, a session (or twenty) with belt feds has made me a master of "continuous shots" (as needed, of course!!)
So, I figured at some point, I would get a tolerable shot....and if they weren't, just remember the other side of the maxim....."Covering fire, doesn't......"

Besides, I'm kind of curious to see if Dave comes back to another AS to see if he can better his score at his 2nd one......-that- could be something to see, eh??  

And CSHR, was Cali even a state in 1775?? Who is/was Burbank?? A veggie eater?? We have one of those guys (or two) already!! 

And you forgot to tell 'em about Gillian's answer to ya about whether she was doing OK.......
Yeah, who's the B#dA$$ Marine??!?!?

This was certainly one of the better ones, gotta say.......
As soon as I find my software for Pix, I'll get some on here.....
Be good, everybody....

LLP

[DocBach]

 
-Went to appleseed, learned how to use a sling.  On Saturday 3-19, I discovered that the sling on the RIS System causes point of impact shifts to the left.  My scope was dialed in center mass, but when using a tight sling, all my groups when to the left of all my targets.  I sawed off the plastic ring on the front of my RIS *a friction fit part that was the only thing not free floating on that barrel/ handguard*, and proceeded to shoot more AQTs the rest of Saturday
-Reviewed Fred's guide to shooting a rifle, where it states 20% of accuracy comes from proper use of sling, which I cannot use since of the above problems 

I actually learned how to use a sling shooting air rifles in Marine Corps JROTC in high school. However, in Army basic training I learned that wrenching on the sling with an M16 does in deed throw your POI off quite a bit. Attending the Army Marksmanship Unit's Squad Designated Marksman class taught me a lot of ways how to shoot an M16 type rifle without the sling accurately out to 600m. I made a powerpoint class to teach it, I taught it a couple of times to my platoon and we had a 12 shooters in the platoon shoot expert to 2-3 experts in each of the other platoons.

I'm attaching it here, the body positions might be a little different then what you know from Appleseed, but they really do work for the M16 - this is what our guys are doing to reach out in Afghanistan right now.

[Leonidas]

Not to say that any service is any better than another, but..... I know that every Marine that goes through boot camp is taught to utilize the loop sling, as well as hit a 20" target at 500 yards. Just saying.
Semper Fidelis

[Justin]

Hey, sounds great! Why don't sign up for the next Appleseed shoot in your area and show us your stuff!! The heritage is great too!

See you on the Appleseed Trail!

 
-Went to appleseed, learned how to use a sling.  On Saturday 3-19, I discovered that the sling on the RIS System causes point of impact shifts to the left.  My scope was dialed in center mass, but when using a tight sling, all my groups when to the left of all my targets.  I sawed off the plastic ring on the front of my RIS *a friction fit part that was the only thing not free floating on that barrel/ handguard*, and proceeded to shoot more AQTs the rest of Saturday
-Reviewed Fred's guide to shooting a rifle, where it states 20% of accuracy comes from proper use of sling, which I cannot use since of the above problems 

I actually learned how to use a sling shooting air rifles in Marine Corps JROTC in high school. However, in Army basic training I learned that wrenching on the sling with an M16 does in deed throw your POI off quite a bit. Attending the Army Marksmanship Unit's Squad Designated Marksman class taught me a lot of ways how to shoot an M16 type rifle without the sling accurately out to 600m. I made a powerpoint class to teach it, I taught it a couple of times to my platoon and we had a 12 shooters in the platoon shoot expert to 2-3 experts in each of the other platoons.

I'm attaching it here, the body positions might be a little different then what you know from Appleseed, but they really do work for the M16 - this is what our guys are doing to reach out in Afghanistan right now.

[DocBach]

Not to say that any service is any better than another, but..... I know that every Marine that goes through boot camp is taught to utilize the loop sling, as well as hit a 20" target at 500 yards. Just saying.
Semper Fidelis

One of my AMU instructors was a (is a I guess, once a Marine always a Marine, right?  ) Marine and he told us that the sling could wrench POIs 4 MOA to the left. The whole thing they drilled into us at SDM was consistency was accuracy and to keep any interference you could off of the barrel, be it sling, foregrip, or even non-firing hand.

As for signing up, my wife and I will be attending the 16th and 17th Castro Valley shoot. I've tried to teach her stuff but she says I'm too mean and Army with it - I give her the same class I give the guys in my unit, so maybe she's right 

[Justin]

Alright, I barely know where to begin with this shoot. It was amazing in so many ways so let me begin by thanking everyone who came out and made it such a great weekend.

Brett, Megan, Trevor, and last but not least Gillian.
There are instances that I look at our society's youth and get worried that our heritage and values erode through the passing of generations. My confidence in posterity has been renewed. I can not begin to describe the maturity, dedication, and spirit these 4 young Americans brought with them. This is it! There is nothing more satisfying than to just witness these 4. It was terrifically amazing. Words cannot describe it! I thank all 4 of you for renewing my spirit.

Romel.
Persistence! I see a lot of potential and I can't wait to see everything you are capable of!

Dan, Heath and Rick
Thanks for coming again! You guys are  a mainstay and it is always wonderful to see you 2 come out. I hope our message is spread  back to the east.

The Texas Crew
Amazing! No talk, just action! The TX Appleseed crew are going to love you guys. Way to represent yourselves!

Nathan
IAO (Improvise adapt and overcome) Plan A never works, that is why they attached a letter to it. 

2 perfect Stage 4 scores! Unbelievable! High percentage of Riflemen! Thank you so much everyone for giving me such a great weekend. I really couldn't ask for more!

Is there such thing as a perfect shoot? If so, this was close!

[Rocket Man]

FWIW, my AR (a real one, HBAR 16")'s point-of-impact only moves about 1 MOA no matter how tight I sling up.  But it's important to know how your equipment works in your hands.  Big POI shifts can happen!

---

Congrats, Justin!  Work for you anytime.  See you on the Trail.

[DocBach]

Well, the whole point is consistency. If you use your sling wrapped up when you zero and the same way when you shoot your accuracy shouldn't be too affected. But if you zero using a sling, then have to shoot without it you'll have some degree of POI shift - the AMU's remedy to that was just to not interfere the barrel with anything.

The Marine AMU instructor, however, did the best of both worlds - he put a Daniel Defense free floating rail system on his rifle so he can use his sling without having to worry about huge shifts of POI if he did/didn't sling up.

[Nero]

As for signing up, my wife and I will be attending the 16th and 17th Castro Valley shoot. I've tried to teach her stuff but she says I'm too mean and Army with it - I give her the same class I give the guys in my unit, so maybe she's right 

I'll be IIT'ing at the Castro Valley shoot, so look forward to meeting you and your wife.    Maybe there you can give me some suggestions on my Kel-Tec SU-16 carbine, which has the same problem with slings:  The forward attachment is a horizontal pin mounted on the gas block, which transfers all the load into a light 16" barrel.  I measured an average 4" POI deflection at 50 yards when I tensioned a 'hasty' sling the same amount as I use with my 10/22.  Very difficult to keep that tension constant, and it's probably doing the barrel no good as well.   I'd like to do a 210 with it, but having trouble getting the necessary precision on stage 3 and 4 without the sling.  Could be the right answer is "Bad idea, that!" but would be interested if you have suggestions when you see it.  (The configuration of the stock/lower is very much NOT AR standard, though it's an AR type action.)

(CSHR, if you're still following, that's the one I tried and that was driving me nuts when you kindly let me jump in for an AQT at January's shoot.  Figured out later that it literally had a screw loose - rear scope mount had worked loose on the rail...  )

[Justin]

I've been hesitant to make mention of this. I hope noone gets the wrong idea or thinks there is a negative connotation to this. None is intended.

As this conversation has turned into a gear/equipment and "alternative" shooting techniques, let's not hijack the thread and post these ideas where they are more appropriate. This thread should be for the After Actions of the shoot and the people who attended it.

Thanks a bunch and I look forward to reading your ideas, techniques, and how you solved the various problems you encountered.

[CSHR]

What I'm seeing is what the instructors should know....after you check the shooter's SHF's, NPOA, & 6 steps....drum roll here...you go to checking the machinery 

At this shoot we had a shooter with a problem, LLP (aka the boss) took up the rifle, I spotted, he had impacts on the 4MOA square and then moved off...seems the rear screw on the scope had come loose and the scope migrated backwards until it was barely touching the mount, go figure, it happens though.

Nero,
I remember that problem you mentioned. Remove/alter the side mount and place one under the barrel, your problems should cease when you use the SHF..support hand relaxed, ELBOW UNDER THE RIFLE, sling around the back of the hand with the loop above the bicep and the sling snug...seems simple to me now that you've eliminated the angled tension completely...but then I'm a simple kind of a guy 

DocBach,

Keep up the good work and stay safe.
Yes, you are correct...there is no way out, once=always, followed closely by a gutteral OOOOORRAAHHHH 

Your instructor was correct...any interference is problematic, AIO...find the way around it...seems he did...and this was just with slings. This is why the instructors are often the people who've 'been there done that' and survived....they learn. These AR platforms don't have the mass that the '03, 17, Garand, M1A, have/had and slings can be a problem. Go speak with a distance competitor or a ground squirrel shooter and they'll have a long list of other potential problems for you.

That said AS instructs basic rifleman marksmanship skills and these can be applied to any distance of shooting, room clearing to 1k+.
When you are able to perform the 'basic' skills correctly the rest will fall into line.

Oh yeah, your wife is right      (my ex was too) 'we' forget how to interact with the civilian population it seems.

Appleseed has taught several classes to Army units getting ready to deploy and raised there abilities across the board....check out the forum for links/info.

Sorry I won't be in CV this time to instruct.

Justin,
I too really like seeing the 'youngsters' and families that come out to our classes....
...reminds me of my family shooting cans in the desert...back when deserts were still rocks and not worn down to sand yet   

We did have an outstanding group of people this last shoot didn't we? And 2 new Shoot Boss' 


CSHR