LTR or M1?

[Grin Reaper]

Good points, all.

SGTCap mentioned the AR as another alternative, and the current CMMG bargain deal puts this within the mid-range shopper's range (just remember it is a flat-top without a rear sight, so you'll need to add one -- here's a good deal on one http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=372401, and here's another http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=873271&t=11082005 ). 
Long term considerations for your main rifle should include parts.  Garand parts aren't scarce, but they aren't clogging up the gun shows like they used to, either.  AR parts are currently available.  I'm assuming you live in a state that doesn't fear the Evil Black Rifle.

What I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go. 

Good point.  Even with the price increase in 2007, CMP .30-06 ammo is still under $0.30/rd, cheaper than ANY OTHER RIFLE CARTRIDGE.  Hard to turn down a deal like that.

Short answer -- any of the options you and others ahve brought up would be good ones.  Get the one you can afford and can afford to shoot and go out and 9wait for it...)  shoot your rifle!

And don't forget the 6 Steps.

[VAshooter]

I don't believe that the worst AR's will shoot better than the best M1's (I have a lot of rounds through both) but I will agree that the best AR's will shoot better than the best M1's.

That is not an issue because thats talking about match grade weapons. A good rack grade AR will probably edge out a good rack grade M1 but it would be very close.

Francis Marion brought up a good point that the military has an array of weapons to back up the M16 while the civilian is limited to whatever he carries. You will never get a consesus on what is the best rifle. There are way too many shooters emotionally tied to their favorite.

VAshooter

[EJ]

perhaps one of the CMMG AR's from the bargain bin and a ceiner kit would beter suit you?

As for the AR not being a true MBR, yes and no.  It doesnt have the power of 308 or 30-06, thats for sure.  Its still an effective round.

Francis Marion brought up a good point that the military has an array of weapons to back up the M16 while the civilian is limited to whatever he carries. You will never get a consesus on what is the best rifle. There are way too many shooters emotionally tied to their favorite.

VAshooter

Understood, it is a very subjective topic.

Will it be effective, and will it accomplish the objective, are very high on my list of concerns about which rifle/round to employ.

I'm assuming you live in a state that doesn't fear the Evil Black Rifle.

I'm in New Hampshire, recently arrived from CT.

That's one of the main reasons that prompted my move.

[Snake45]

A good rack grade AR will probably edge out a good rack grade M1 but it would be very close.

Respectfully disagree. In my experience, it's a rare rack-grade AR that won't shoot under 2MOA. Actually, it's not at all uncommon for rack grade ARs to get darn close to one true MOA, even with generic "white box" ammo. You generally have to do some work on an M1 to get them under 2 MOA.

[wcmartin1]

I'm not an AR guy. 

I love my M1A, but...

After buying one for my kids, watching my son put it through it's paces at an AS with no malfs (this was my main concern other than the mousegun argument), watching my daughter get on target with it, watching my HP buddies compete with them, and shooting one myself I'm slowly coming around.

[blasphemy] I may even buy one for myself. (I'll probably get a Garand first, though. )

[Old Dog]

My first choice will always be a .30 caliber.  A life or death situation has different targets than a bulls eye, an AQT or a pop up target.  Real targets hide behind things and shoot back.  I know the value of a round that goes through more cover (making it not cover, but concealment).

Having said that, I'd still rather be working with someone that can hit what they need to with an AR15 than missing it with an M1A.  That's the point of rifle marksmanship isn't it - hitting the intended target in the best possible spot?  If you can hit it with the 5.56 why miss it with the 7.62. 

As for all the modular stuff?  Do you need all the lights, lasers, optical sights, pistol grips, CQB slings, etc. to hit the target?  Okay you guys that have seen my little toy keep your mouths shut.  I can prove it hits just fine without most of the little toys, the scope I need, the rest are just "modular" accessories.

Probably the best advice given on this thread so far is get the 22, go to an Appleseed and see if you can find some folks to let you shoot a few rounds through the AR, M1, M1A, FAL, etc. rifles and then decide what you can afford and what works for you. 

As my brother said a couple of years ago (and it seemed to tickle Fred's patriot patch at the time), "Why do I need a rifle?  I'm gonna shoot one of them with my shotgun and take his rifle and ammo if they come up here in the woods where I live."

[Nickle]

As for all the modular stuff?  Do you need all the lights, lasers, optical sights, pistol grips, CQB slings, etc. to hit the target?  Okay you guys that have seen my little toy keep your mouths shut.  I can prove it hits just fine without most of the little toys, the scope I need, the rest are just "modular" accessories.

Probably the best advice given on this thread so far is get the 22, go to an Appleseed and see if you can find some folks to let you shoot a few rounds through the AR, M1, M1A, FAL, etc. rifles and then decide what you can afford and what works for you. 

Really M1A4ME, now, I'm known to some folks as "an AR guy", but that was mostly because I knew a fair amount about them (having used an M16A1 and later, M16A2 as part of making my living, I'd better know). I do own an AR, a "plain jane" as issued M16A2 style AR. 20" barrel, no bells and whistles (or kitchen sink, flashing lights, etc).

EJ, there will be AR's at the WRJ show as well. The way things are sounding you may want to leave the wallet and credit cards at home (then again, you may want to bring them). There will be at least one table there selling AR's, and he has good deals for quality rifles. The AR is an acceptable (and fully functional) rifle to use to defend Liberty and the USA.

If your heart is set on an M1, as I said before, do it sooner, rather than later. I made the mistake of waiting to buy stuff to find it gone. The M1 will be still available after CMP quits selling them, but prices will go up, not down, and M1's from other than CMP run close or over $1000 right now.

If you haven't met CMP's competition/training/veteran requirement (need to be in one of their categories in that area), attendance at an Appleseed meets that requirement. If you don't have a rifle before the Appleseed, I can say with complete certainty that a rifle can be there for you, and it will likely be an LTR (or close to one).

[sandanbob]

Regarding the M1 Garand- I would agree that the CMP option is your best bet.  There are other sources, including private sales.  Southern Ohio Gun, for example, has Garands for $695

Code Select Expand

http://www.southernohiogun.com/new.htm.  They say the are in "good condition"- I am not sure if that equates to rack grade, or field grade, or something else.

[SGTCap]

My first choice will always be a .30 caliber.  A life or death situation has different targets than a bulls eye, an AQT or a pop up target.  Real targets hide behind things and shoot back.  I know the value of a round that goes through more cover (making it not cover, but concealment).

Having said that, I'd still rather be working with someone that can hit what they need to with an AR15 than missing it with an M1A.  That's the point of rifle marksmanship isn't it - hitting the intended target in the best possible spot?  If you can hit it with the 5.56 why miss it with the 7.62. 

As for all the modular stuff?  Do you need all the lights, lasers, optical sights, pistol grips, CQB slings, etc. to hit the target?  Okay you guys that have seen my little toy keep your mouths shut.  I can prove it hits just fine without most of the little toys, the scope I need, the rest are just "modular" accessories.

Probably the best advice given on this thread so far is get the 22, go to an Appleseed and see if you can find some folks to let you shoot a few rounds through the AR, M1, M1A, FAL, etc. rifles and then decide what you can afford and what works for you. 

As my brother said a couple of years ago (and it seemed to tickle Fred's patriot patch at the time), "Why do I need a rifle?  I'm gonna shoot one of them with my shotgun and take his rifle and ammo if they come up here in the woods where I live."

One thing that you aren't considering, or at least not mentioning, is the role of a weapon at less than 100 yards.  The m1 platform was designed as a battle rifle.  It was ment to put shots on target at ranges of 100-500 yards and in many cases beyond, and did so very well.  THe  M16/AR15 platform was designed to engage targets from point blank out to 300-500 meters depending on who you talk to.  It was/is a defensive weapon.  One reason I advocate the AR is that it is a lot easier to use inside 100 yards than the M1.  I would like to see someone run a carbine course with a fullsize M1/M1A and then with an AR to see which they prefer.  Thats why I think it is more versital.  I can take the same 16" AR15 to a carbine course that I would take to an Appleseed and do well at both.  I'm not sure I can do the same with a Garand. 

What I'm saying is there is a difference between a battle rifle and a carbine.  If you can only have one or the other, which is true for ALOT of people, you have to deside what is best for you.  For me if it is only one or the other its an AR all the way.  That being said I'm in the process of "Get both". 

[TwoGlock]

Affirmative; I currently only own a single handgun.


Learning proper marksmanship is the main reason I am here. I hope to make the most of my experience and learn as much as I can.


I'm not particularly attached to getting an M1; it just happens to be the most cost effective solution for a "real" MBR, for me at this time.

I hope to have several rifles eventually; an LTR and an MBR just happen to be at the top of the list.

This subject is very interesting to me.  It is a subject that cannot end with a single summarized statement.

I mostly agree with the observations by M1A4ME when considering a BFR.

Now back to the subject at hand.  You instructors correct me if I am wrong or out of line, but my view of "The Apple Seed Project" is that it is an educational project.  First to educate Americans in the safe and proficient use of firearms, an education that changes them from simply "American's" to "American Riflemen". Second to educate them to the facts that made this country free.  The facts about the American revolution that made us an independent nation and "Americans" rather than "British subjects" and that gave us our U.S. constitution and the 2nd and other amendments and the bill or rights.

If enough people are thus educated the only occasion that will ever require a civilian American citizen to use a BFR in anger will be because of a foreign invasion or defense from criminal activity where lethal use of force would be justified.

As you have limited experience with rifles, I have a couple of suggestions.  First is, regardless of whether you go center fire of 22 RF, learn what is the good stuff and what is "Junk".  There is too much of both to list here and besides, others will not completely agree with me as to what is "Junk" and what is "Good Stuff".

Next decide what you expect in performance from your rifle.  I recently had some work done on my Winchester M52B by a gunsmith that builds world class custom rimfire rifles.  He says that he will not ship a rifle to a customer that will not shoot groups small enough at 50 yards to prevent you from passing the case head of a 22 LR cartridge through the hole made by the group.  This cost money. About $3,500 dollars for a single shot 22 rimfire.

Consider reliability, durability, and cost.

For a general purpose rimfire I recommend the Ruger 10/22 in 22 LR.  It's not perfect but satisfies a lot of requirements.  It comes in several configurations and calibers (the 22 LR, 17 caliber rimfire models and the 22 magnum model) and two grades. The most popular is the standard grade in either blued or stainless and several configurations, i.e. Wood stock plastic stock and the deluxe with a nice walnut wood stock.

Then there is the 10/22 T (target model) which has accuracy enhancements of a better trigger pull and a target grade heavy barrel.

I have both the standard grade and a Target model.  Either is capable of perfect scores on the Appleseed AQT with its preferred ammunition if the shooter is up to it.  (I wish I were).  I proved this to myself by shooting several perfect AQT scores from a bench rest position. (Sorry Fred, I know that a true rifleman never shoots from the bench, but I just had to know).

So how does the two compare accuracy wise?  On an average the standard averages 3" with its preferred ammunition for 10 shots at 100 yards and no wind.  The Target model about 1 ½" under the same conditions.

I suggest you get Fred's guide to decide on a centerfire. http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifles.asp

The guide is chuck full of "The Right Stuff".  When I added centerfire It was with the M1 Garrand.  I eventually traded it for M1A.  Why? I just wanted one and could not afford both at the time.

We would love to have you come to our spring appleseed shoot at Henry County Gun Club at Puryear, Tennessee April 5th. And 6th 2008. http://www.hcgc.net . You don't even have to bring a rifle.

Hope this helps.


Good luck

[raf]

Heh, "Get both" is the semi-official motto of Arfcom.

EJ, you've been given a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is disjointed and anyone, even an expert, could be forgiven for being confused at this point.

My suggestion is to relax, take a deep breath, and order "Boston"s Gun Bible" from www.fredsm14stocks.com along with a shooting jacket and an instructor's kit.  You'll find all the stuff from Fred useful, but the "Bible" will give you the lowdown on just about every rifle you might be thinking about.  And a lot more besides.  I doubt there is a veteran poster on this board who has not read the "Bible" and agrees with most of it, at least.  

You will not find a better, more coherent source of info, and I daresay most of the posters in this thread will agree with my suggestion.

NOT trying to brush you off.  You nead some basic learning, and the internet is NOT the place to do such.  Too many opinions from well-meaning people who don't know you.

Buy the book, read it carefully, and you will be better informed that 90% of gunowners.  Then you can proceed confident that you are informed.  Meantime, don't be a stranger.

[wcmartin1]

Heh, "Get both" is the semi-official motto of Arfcom.

EJ, you've been given a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is disjointed and anyone, even an expert, could be forgiven for being confused at this point.

My suggestion is to relax, take a deep breath, and order "Boston"s Gun Bible" from www.fredsm14stocks.com along with a shooting jacket and an instructor's kit.  You'll find all the stuff from Fred useful, but the "Bible" will give you the lowdown on just about every rifle you might be thinking about.  And a lot more besides.  I doubt there is a veteran poster on this board who has not read the "Bible" and agrees with most of it, at least.  

You will not find a better, more coherent source of info, and I daresay most of the posters in this thread will agree with my suggestion.

Buy the book, read it carefully, and you will be better informed that 90% of gunowners.  Then you can proceed confident that you are informed.  Meantime, don't be a stranger.

Yeah... what he said.

[EJ]

My suggestion is to.. ..order "Boston"s Gun Bible"..

LOL. That was the suggestion of a friend who first informed me of P.A. 

I have been trying to get a group buy together as it would net a 40% discount off retail.

I'll get one asap if that doesn't pan out.

Thanks again all; very much appreciated. 

[TwoGlock]

Heh, "Get both" is the semi-official motto of Arfcom.

EJ, you've been given a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is disjointed and anyone, even an expert, could be forgiven for being confused at this point.

My suggestion is to relax, take a deep breath, and order "Boston"s Gun Bible" from www.fredsm14stocks.com along with a shooting jacket and an instructor's kit.  You'll find all the stuff from Fred useful, but the "Bible" will give you the lowdown on just about every rifle you might be thinking about.  And a lot more besides.  I doubt there is a veteran poster on this board who has not read the "Bible" and agrees with most of it, at least.  

You will not find a better, more coherent source of info, and I daresay most of the posters in this thread will agree with my suggestion.

NOT trying to brush you off.  You nead some basic learning, and the internet is NOT the place to do such.  Too many opinions from well-meaning people who don't know you.

Buy the book, read it carefully, and you will be better informed that 90% of gunowners.  Then you can proceed confident that you are informed.  Meantime, don't be a stranger.

You ask too much........... How on earth could EJ RELAX when he so fired up about the Appleseed Project?   

[Nickle]

My suggestion is to.. ..order "Boston"s Gun Bible"..

LOL. That was the suggestion of a friend who first informed me of P.A. 

I have been trying to get a group buy together as it would net a 40% discount off retail.

I'll get one asap if that doesn't pan out.

Thanks again all; very much appreciated. 

Check Fred's website for price comparison (just checked, he's $20). http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/books.asp

If you need to, you can borrow my copy of Boston's. It's worn and raggedy, but still readable.

And, as I said, I've got at least one copy of most of the rifles mentioned in it that are practical and affordable (except an HK, and I know of a guy over your way that's got one of those). Matter of fact, you come over to the Proctor Appleseed in April, and I can make sure you get a chance to TRY them.

[The Guy]

Look, to be quite honest, the only way to know is to shoot one of each, or maybe even two of each.

If you can try some rifles out, do so.  You never know, maybe what you really are is an Enfield Man under all that semi auto exterior.

Let's have no more of the 5.56/7.62/AR/AK/M1/A discussion.  It has been done 500 billion times out there in the net, and will go no where quick.

Go shooting with Nickle, and then get your rifle.

Remeber, net oppinions are only worth what you pay for them, but they can offer insight.

[socalserf]

I'll second the BGB. Best $20 I have ever spent. Seriously.

[Grin Reaper]

Maybe "Read Boston's Gun Bible" should be our official answer to the 'Which rifle...'-type questions.   

You nead some basic learning, and the internet is NOT the place to do such.  Too many opinions from well-meaning people who don't know you.

raf, your genius is subtle, but it's still genius.

[Nishnabotna]

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

No, it won't change the price much, but it may change availability from CMP. They've been planning on getting out of the Surplus Rifle end of it this year, if they can (before the political climate changes). Not many folks know that, but it is out there. And, they're running low on M1's, have run OUT in fact a couple of times in the past few years.

Folks, the inside info is that EJ is planning on really biting the bullet, so to say, and getting both an LTR and an M1 (assuming he likes the M1).

This makes up my mind for me.  The Govt says it wants to give some of my money back to me this year to help stimulate the economy.  Guess I know where it's going to go.

[kool aid]

Not or..... AND