How to decrease drop at heel on M1A stock?

[henschman]

I thought I might get some input from you guys on something I'm trying to do with my M1A.  I have an ACOG scope for it, which tends to sit kind of high, being that it is made to go on a flat-top AR.  I have an adjustable cheek piece that gets my head high enough for proper sight alignment, but the problem is that if the rifle is properly pocketed, my neck has to stretch up pretty high to get on that cheek rest (see pic).  So instead of my head just resting down on the rifle stock, it is pressing sideways on it too.  This causes me to cant unless I twist out the cant with my trigger hand, and even if I do, it isn't very comfortable for my neck to be stretched out so much.  This position just involves way too much muscle input for my liking.  If I set the rifle lower in my shoulder, I can take a comfortable head position, but that involves putting the heel of the stock down to my armpit, and would never hold position through recoil.  I think what I need to do is to decrease what is known as the "drop at heel" on my stock -- in other words, I'd like the heel to be higher.  How could I do this?

I would like my stock dimensions to look more like an M14E2 or a McMillan M2A stock, where the heel of the stock is as high as the part of the stock that goes around the receiver.  However, I don't really feel like paying for an E2 stock or a McMillan stock!  And I definitely don't want one of those super-heavy, super-expensive "stock chasis systems" like the Sage, JAE, or Troy.

Do you think I could get this done with some custom fiberglass work on a GI stock?  It might need a new butt pad, I suppose.  I'd have to buy a fiberglass stock from Fred to do this, since my M1A is a newer one that comes with Springfield's new plastic stock  .

What about just fabbing up some kind of plate to screw to the stock with the factory butt-plate holes that sticks up higher than the GI buttplate, and attaching a rubber butt pad to it?  Would that be workable?

Another option I'm thinking of is to put an Vltor Modstock on it.  Their stock for the M14 is a GI fiberglass stock that is modified with an aluminum rear end that allows an AR-15 sliding stock and pistol grip to be mounted, and the whole stock tube assembly is adjustable up or down 1", to go between irons and optics.  This looks like it would solve my problem, but its almost $500.  I guess that's not so much when you figure that I already spent almost $1300 on the rifle and almost $1200 on the scope, but still...  Midway has this whole stock setup listed at 14 oz.  That sounds pretty light to me -- it couldn't weigh too much more than a GI stock, if any.  Their stock also has a lot of storage space -- I daresay more than the factory M14 stock.  I don't know about a rear sling swivel, though... it looks like its all set up for those fancy side mounted QD swivels.  I'm sure I could figure something out.

I don't think I would mind having a pistol grip... I saw Guy shoot his M14 with a custom GI stock with pistol grip at the Eureka, KS boot camp last week, and it looked like a pretty comfortable setup. 

I thought some of you might have some ideas, knowing how many of you have M14s and how resourceful Appleseeders tend to be.  I know there are some guys on the forum who do fiberglass work too.  If you have any advice for me, I'd appreciate it.

Anyway, here is a pic of my current setup... you should be able to see my problem. 

[jrturbo]

try one of these.

http://www.davidtubb.com/buttplate.html

I have no financial interest in said  product. 

  I just have a rifle or 2 with one of these on it.  Works well.

Turbo

[bedford]

Have you considered a scout type system? It is mounted really low, so you should be able to use a USGI stock with little/no need for a cheek riser.  This allows you to get a good "turkey neck" like you do with iron sights.  Plus, it is a lot less expensive.    I have a system like this on an M1 Garand and I think it is a great way to go. You could sell your ACOG, and have Leupold custom shop make a custom pistol scope for it with indexed bullet drops, and still have plenty of money left over for ammo.

[crak]

Bedford, I have a scout mounted aimpoint on one of mine and I definitely need a cheek riser.  I can't imagine any optic on an M1A that wouldn't unless those mini dots are that short these days.

[Longshot]

H,

I built the stock on Guy's rifle, and futher adjusted it for his ridiculously long gooseneck ( he's standing over me laughing at the moment). That was the prototype stock that didn't work for me because of length of pull...... so.... I built a new on with a M4 collapsible stock, and pistol grip, adjustable cheekpiece, etc.
Cost me about $120 plus the original SA stock, ( military issue synthetic).

If I can help, let me know. Depends on your abilities. I could be persuaded to build another. Photos available

LS

[henschman]

KR, I was hoping you might be able to help me out!  You definitely know your way around fiberglass, judging by Guy's rifle, that M14 Dragunov stock that Oldgrunt has, and that SKS you showed me at Sallisaw.  As for me, my fiberglass experience is limited to helping my dad patch up a little sailboat years ago, and that didn't turn out too well... so no, I wouldn't put much stock (or hull) in my abilities.  I'd be interested to see your custom collapsible stock setup... do you have any pictures of it handy?  And how much of your commodity of choice would it take to persuade you to build another one?  Tell Guy his "goose neck" is much more flattering now that it's not covered up with that mane anymore.

jrturbo, that Tubb 4-way adjustable buttplate does everyting I am looking for (and a whole lot more), but I just saw that Midway has it listed as weighing 2 pounds by itself!  I guess it is a pretty big chunk of metal... it's designed for match shooting rather than for a field rifle.  I definitely wouldn't want to add that much weight to my M1A... plus it would mean I couldn't have any storage in the stock anymore.  I guess I'll have to find another solution, but thanks anyway for letting me know about it... I had seen that style of AR stock before, but never a buttplate like that which can be fitted to any conventional stock.  Maybe for another rifle someday.

bedford, I have considered a scout scope.  In fact, I'll probably be putting one on my own M1 in the near future, but my choice of the ACOG for the M1A was very deliberate and thought out... my girlfriend would say it sure as hell better have been, for $1,180!   

The stadia lines that are the width of a man-size target at each respective range; the illuminated chevron that represents the BSZ; the fact that it can be used as an unmagnified red dot optic at close quarters by shooting with both eyes open; the fact that the reticle is designed for 7.62mm M80 Ball out of a full length barrel; the fact that it doesn't take batteries; the rugedness; the clarity... There simply isn't a traditional tube scope that offers anywhere near those features, especially the reticle.  If there was, I would have gobbled it up in a heartbeat because it would be a lot easier to mount on the M1A.  What I REALLY wish is that Trijicon would make their Accupoint line of scopes with the ACOG reticle, but alas, I guess that line is just for hunters and civilians, who don't "need" a reticle for ranging man-size targets.   

Yeah, I know, its not an equipment race and a Rifleman can make do with whatever he has, but I figure if I ever need to use this rifle for its intended purpose I might be a little rattled, and the fact that the ACOG reticle is so intuitive and easy to use, even under pressure, is really attractive to me.  If the bad guy is as fat or fatter than the chevron, put it on him and squeeze.  If not, pick the line that is the closest to his width, put it on him, and squeeze.  If he pops up at point blank range, just shoulder the rifle with both eyes open, put that red chevron on him, and squeeze.  Close enough for a torso hit, no matter what range you're doing it at.

[bedford]

Bedford, I have a scout mounted aimpoint on one of mine and I definitely need a cheek riser.  I can't imagine any optic on an M1A that wouldn't unless those mini dots are that short these days.

I am sure you are correct on this for most shooters, Crak!  I have such a long turkey neck that cheekpieces don't work for me.  I didn't realize it until I thought about it, but I have 2 different holds. For iron sights, I lay my nose along the receiver.  For the scout scope, I grip the rifle higher, put my thumb along the receiver, and put my nose on top of my thumb.  It seems to work for me.

I did buy an M1A in one of the aluminum chassis systems.  I really liked it except it was so front heavy.  I needed to add lead to the stock to get it to balance, and then it weighed ~ 14lbs unloaded without optics. It is very impractical.

[Old Dog]

My scope is low enough that I have to have the rear sight all the way down to clear the scope and I still benefited from installing a cheek riser on my stock.  The front corner of the riser fits into the same spot on my cheek that my thumb does when shooting iron sights on my M1 Garand.

I also use the flip up buttplate when shooting my rifle.  I don't know if that actually allows the butt to sit lower on my shoulder but I use it anyway.

[jrturbo]

Once you swap out the std but plate and take the cleaning kit out of the stock you probably would not be adding much weight to the rifle with the Tubb adjustable. storage could be an add on pouch.

There is one other option.  The M21 stock is built specifically for scoping an M1A / M14.  The comb and heel are at different locations compared to the std. M1A stock.

Here is a link to photos of M21's and std. M1As

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=9935_13987_14156


Here is a link to an M21 stock for sale.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=134&t=782641

(No financial interest in either link - just did a cursory search and these were the 1st ones I found)

The stock is wood, and probably heavier than a fiberglass GI stock.  There is no storage. 

I have scoped my M1A and it is not a rifle that lends itself to that task with ease.  There is always some compromise. And it is not cheap. 

I wound up going back to irons and scoping my boltie. 

If you want something light(er) get an AR-10....... (sigh.... I can't believe I'm saying that, but you can scope one of those much easier)  Probably same money when it all washes out. 

Hope you find a solution

Turbo

[AZRedhawk44]

Talk to Tony Lawrence at Law483 enterprises.

http://www.law483.com/index.html

He made me a wonderful custom M14 stock for my needs.  It's fiberglass with an adjustable bedding system, but modeled after the Springfield M1A Supermatch profile stock rather than the typical GI fiberglass stock.  I like the increased swell/angle of the pistolgrip on the Supermatch.

I was searching for a fiberglass stock with a supermatch profile, that I could disassemble often with no damage to the bedding.  He met my needs.

If you tell him you're looking for "X" and it isn't on the market... he'll make it for you.  It may take a couple months, but he'll get it done.

[henschman]

Well, being that I just got my first real job this week and I'm actually going to be able to afford it, I think I'm going to buy an Vltor Modstock.  From what I've read, they are actually a hair lighter than a GI stock.  They also have even more storage... there is the hollow "buffer tube" (which doesn't have a buffer or spring in it on the M14 obviously), 2 side storage tubes, a little compartment designed for batteries in the stock, and the pistol grip that comes with it has a little compartment in it, too.  It ought to be able to easily store anything I need to keep that rifle going.  It is just a chopped GI fiberglass stock, so it still has the holes up front where I can attach my factory front sling swivel.  I will have to use one of their side swivel attachment points for a rear swivel, but that's OK.

It looks like with my ARMS #18 mount, this stock will give me the same optic height as on an AR when the stock is adjusted all the way up... and the stock will be in line with the bore, so I bet there will be less muzzle flip for faster follow-ups.  The ACOG is already sitting at the same height over bore as on an AR, so it should be all good.  I'll let you know how it goes.

[Andrew Chesney]

Here is what I used to to raise the comb height on my rifle: http://www.accu-riser.com/

It has a .75" pad on top of the riser.  They also sell a 1.25" tall pad.  They are interchangeable with a push button.

I cut off the Velcro strap and mounted the riser with some screws.





From the manufacturer:

[henschman]

Andy, my problem is not comb height, it is drop at heel... or more specifically, the difference in height between the comb and the heel of the stock.  I can get my comb plenty high with my DWP cheek rest, but the stock still has to sit in the same place on my shoulder.  That meant my neck has to be stretched up pretty high, which is uncomfortable and causes sideways pressure on the stock.

With the Vltor stock, the whole stock is adjustable up or down.  That way, the heel will always be the same height as the comb.

[Andrew Chesney]

Understood - I thought that if you were able to pull the (raised) comb closer to the heel (you can position the accu-stock pretty much anywhere on the comb), it might help.  Cheaper too. 

Good luck - I hope it works out for you. 

Live free, Andy

[henschman]

Thanks.  That is a pretty neat cheek riser -- I hadn't seen it before.  I might use one if I put together a tube-scoped M14 someday.

Nice looking rattle-can job on your stock, btw... I like the "scaled" look.  Did you use some kind of wire mesh to make it look that way?

[Andrew Chesney]

Nice looking rattle-can job on your stock, btw... I like the "scaled" look.

Thank you.  I have a stock for the winter also.  (I'm still trying to decide what colors to use for the fall)

Did you use some kind of wire mesh to make it look that way?

Nope - Just an old laundry bag for the stencil.

[Nickle]

There is one other option.  The M21 stock is built specifically for scoping an M1A / M14.  The comb and heel are at different locations compared to the std. M1A stock.

Careful with the term "M21". The real deal USGI M21 was nothing more than a National Match M14 with the appropriate optics on it. The stock was pure M14NM and though heavier and slightly wider, it was the same drop/heel as a regular M14 stock. Yup, I've handled them, never got to shoot them, though.

That "M21" stock the link shows is a Springfield Armory (IL, not MA, therefore current, not USGI) made stock. Probably exactly the ticket for this, too.

[henschman]

I had considered it, but I really would rather not use a SA M21 stock, since it would add weight and wouldn't have any storage.  The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of that Vltor stock.  I figure I'll get the tan version, and then give it a paint job similar to Andy's Scout.