Saiga 308

[Rhodes]

I was looking hard at those synthetic stocks but something just seems wrong about a Garand without wood, yeah Im weird like that. Also looking into the AR-10 since I wont be buying anything until I shoot a rifleman score. But the price difference between the Saiga and the AR is the cost of 1k rounds of 308. Decisions decisions...

That conversion on the Saiga is the most remarkable thing Ive ever seen on a rifle for the small effort and expense. It just makes it a whole different firearm, all Pros no Cons.

[Fred]

   Not sure an AR-10 should be on your list. Get a copy of Boston's Gun Bible and check out his eval before you buy one...

[Rhodes]

   Not sure an AR-10 should be on your list. Get a copy of Boston's Gun Bible and check out his eval before you buy one...

Thanks for putting me on to that, sent me off on a whole nuther path of info collection. So it seems the converted Saiga 308 in 16" is just as accurate as the AR-10 without the "issues",  cant complain about that. Have to admit the more I use an AK the more I begin to appreciate it, since break in on the Saiga Ive not had one single failure of any kind in what must be by now close to 2k rounds. It does seem however to be a bad idea to mix in brass ammo after firing steel which may the problem on the AR.

Thanks again makes things so much easier since now I can afford ammo also   now I just need to shoot that 220!

[gunville]

The benefit of an x39 is the cheaper ammo - .308 is twice the price, (.223 being in the middle.)

If only RAA would import the 7.62x54R Saiga model. That would give you ammo cheaper (currently) than x39 with all the kick and distance of .308, all with AK reliability. ( I guess I could go SVD.)

For bbl on the Siaga 308 I think the 20" is the better selection. With 308 you should get better velocity and less fireball with the 20", plus a better sight radius on the iron. 

[Rhodes]

The benefit of an x39 is the cheaper ammo - .308 is twice the price, (.223 being in the middle.)

If only RAA would import the 7.62x54R Saiga model. That would give you ammo cheaper (currently) than x39 with all the kick and distance of .308, all with AK reliability. ( I guess I could go SVD.)

For bbl on the Siaga 308 I think the 20" is the better selection. With 308 you should get better velocity and less fireball with the 20", plus a better sight radius on the iron. 

I would like that also but they dont so the 308 will do fine. The 308 is more expensive and it will force me to either do reloads or shoot it sparingly but despite its cost its very easy to find in any decent gun shop and made in the US in case of import restrictions. I love shooting my x39 its by far the most accurate true AK Ive ever held and is arguably the best MBR available for 200m and below. The AK-47 reputation for inaccuracy does not apply to the Saiga due to changes they made to remedy that without affecting that iron clad reliability.

Surprisingly, to me at least, the 16" 308 barrel is reported superior, most notable when using optics to offset sight length disadvantage. It produces slightly and I mean slightly better groups up to sub MOA. Its supposed to be due to less flex when fired. So given the easier handling of the 16" makes it a better choice for me since it will have optics, flash suppressor, and plenty of velocity for 400m. By using reloads the burn rate can be adjusted to expend all powder in 16".

But that's just me and I tend to over complicate things and at times that fireball is fun...

[gunville]

But that's just me and I tend to over complicate things and at times that fireball is fun...

Yeah, I like my MN M38 flamethrower!

So much for good neighbors on the firing line! 

[henschman]

I think that rumor about barrel whip on the 20 inchers only applied to the older model saigas, when the other company was importing them... Supposedly they have a little heavier barrel on the ones RAA is bringing in.  On mine, the barrel was at least as heavy as an m14 or an m1a, and it shot fine.  It would have no problem shooting a rifleman's score with cheap ammo.  The muzzle blast and recoil are a lot more bearable than my friend's 16" was.  A muzzle flash that can be spotted from a mile away is a big negative factor for a MBR in my opinion.  I know you can handload, but I want to be able to rely on surplus ammo if necessary.

I don't know about the actual AR-10s made by Armalite, but my DPMS LR-308C (a 20" AR in .308) is significantly more accurate than my saiga was.  so far it has been completely reliable, too.  FWHIW.

[Appalacious]

The AR-10s I've shot were slightly more accurate than the saigas I've shot (All 308).  But I would question their reliability in real world.  Anyone whos been to a Toccoa Mud Bowl knows how bad it can get.  Its gas piston for me.  Well maybe delayed blowback (word to the CETME).

J

[fepowered]

Also looking into the AR-10 since I wont be buying anything until I shoot a rifleman score. But the price difference between the Saiga and the AR is the cost of 1k rounds of 308. Decisions decisions...

The Saiga .308 meets the minimum requirements for accuracy of a rifle according to the Appleseed formula but is far from a precision rifle.   An Armalite AR10 is factory guaranteed to be  1.5 MOA or better.   I have personally owned 3 and fired thousands of rounds through them.   Mine were all 1MOA or better.  I would personally recommend an Armalite to anyone who wants an accurate reliable .308 and can afford it.   A few years ago, Armalite addressed the reliability issues which SOME AR10 owners were experiencing.   Jamming was far from the norm, but with the advent of the internet, it does not take many problems for rumors to spread.  Armalite then applied the "upgrades" which they applied to problem rifles to all rifles which left the factory.   My Armalites along with those of my friends who own or have owned them has been nothing less than excellent.  I still have my first AR10 which was purchased over 10 years ago, long before any of the running upgrades.  I still use the old style magazines in it and it has never let me down. 
Here is a quote regarding the Boston Gun Bible review:

The Armalite AR-10 was poised to be first but ranked last in reliability. But the author based his evaluation of the AR-10's reliability on reports on the rifle rather than his own hands on experience.

So it seems the converted Saiga 308 in 16" is just as accurate as the AR-10 without the "issues",  cant complain about that.
Surprisingly, to me at least, the 16" 308 barrel is reported superior, most notable when using optics to offset sight length disadvantage. It produces slightly and I mean slightly better groups up to sub MOA.

My personal experiences with the 2 Saiga 16" .308s I have owned were different.  Although reliable as expected, the best groups with either using optics were between  2-3 MOA. 

The AR-10s I've shot were slightly more accurate than the saigas I've shot (All 308).  But I would question their reliability in real world.

I would have no qualms grabbing my AR10 or AR15 off of the rack for any "real world" purpose I may need them for including for those purposes which my life were to depend upon.  I have been using the direct impingement gas system for nearly 20 years on active duty and off and I have no compelling urge to make the switch.

[CaptG]

I wonder if Boston's review of the AR10 would be the same today. When he wrote it, the Armalite was the only premium one available. I've also got a DPMS & it's a 1 MOA shooter. I've had no reliability issues other than it's rather picky ammo appetite due to a tight .308 chamber (it doesn't like privi 7.62, but has fed evrything with a NATO headstamp w/o a problem). The biggest shortfalls I see in the DPMS are mag expense and lack of parts interchangability with anything else. If you get one buy some extra parts and be prepared to wait, DPMS lead time for spares is slooow.
Guy

[Rhodes]

The whole AK vs AR thing has been done to death and it is basically apples and oranges. Given the 308 is an improvement over the x39 for longer range the 308 Saiga is an improvement if a costly one. At times I am perfectly happy with the reality of 99% of use being under 100 yards much less 300. Other times I would like a bit more range, tough calls given resources.

The problem with accuracy has has been stated is it most often is gained though tightening the specs on critical areas that unfortunately cost you somewhat in other areas. A picky eater is a reliability issue as much as a weapon that jams. At times we under appreciate reliability because it does not show up on a score card. All are really subjective.

[Rhodes]

Well I did have to do something I did not wish but Im glad for once. I found a new 21" 308 Saiga for 399.00 about 150.00 or more under current pricing. Yes I have some work to do on the rifle to make it into what i wish but heh I enjoy it any way. So I have my 308 MBR project and when finished most likely will sell the x39 if all turns out well. Hope to get some benefit of the vase knowledge base on the 308 that resides here as this will be my first 308 project.