M14 vs M1 Garand

[Wade]

I was handed an  match grade M-1a and sa ball ammo at ridgecrest (I am used to an M-1 Garand) I found no problem with the 20 round mag getting in my way ,The only problem I found with the M-1a was OHS witch made 2 out of the 20 rounds go over the top of the target (600 yards steel) ohs is a seruose problem folks it can creep up to any Rifle ,,,,,ok your wondering what is this OHS problem we all get it once in awhile ,,,Operator Head Space  ,I had to do the math for my come up the rear sight had not been indexed ,I did not do it just right .

Other then the price of ammo I would take either one  and with the m-2 ball ammo being flat based it don't go as far as acurratly as the 7.62x51 nato .

Based on all that  if I had the extra cash around to buy an M-1a match grade Rifle (or even a standerd M-1a) I would ,,,I would still keep my M-1 tho.

Wade

[colycat]

I have been having problems getting youngsters to want the M1.  I love mine.  They think it is not sexy enough, I guess.

[colycat]

OK, I am going to buy another M1.  Im thinking, if I ever have a shoot that has more the 60 people,(  should be easy next yr)  I will offer it for a raffle.  Its how I got mine and its a good promotion for AS.  Think about it, 20 buck gets you into a chance for a real rifle with the odds being 1 in 35.( only 35 tickets sold) All of us Instructors  could do this, I think.

[Wade]

OK, I am going to buy another M1.  Im thinking, if I ever have a shoot that has more the 60 people,(  should be easy next yr)  I will offer it for a raffle.  Its how I got mine and its a good promotion for AS.  Think about it, 20 buck gets you into a chance for a real rifle with the odds being 1 in 35.( only 35 tickets sold) All of us Instructors  could do this, I think.

Um I think you are wrong,,,I for one could never give up an M-1 Garand  ,call it a short coming  greed?


Wade

[Old Dog]

For purposes of Appleseed and AQTs there is no real advantage to the big magazine.

Some folks find it easer to get prone with the M1.

The M1 kick more than the M1A?  Never realized it.  Similar bullet/weight.  Similar rifle weight.  Similar bullet velocity.  To me the advantage of the M1A is that flip up butt plate.  I use it in all three positions.  Some day I may "carve" on a spare M1 stock to see if I can get an M14 butt plate mounted to it.  I think my M1A is heavier than my M1 though.  The scope/scope mount, cleaning kit in the butt and bipod probably cause that.  The M1 is kind of muzzle heavy due to the synthetic stock, the scout scope mount and pistol scope on the barrel.  You get used to the "feel" is you use it enough.

For more serious work, like those described in that short story about UN troops moving on a small town out in the flatlands of the west a mix of M1s and M1As might be a good thing.  One of the things we learned in the Army was when setting up and ambush the M16's should be set up with a combination of 30 rnd. mags. in half the team and 20 rnd. mags. in the other half.  That way everyone didn't run out of ammo and do a mag change at the same time.  Not sure anyone does things that way today with all the 30 rnd. mags. out there but it sounded good back then.

Two great rifles.  Enjoy'em!!

[Appalacious]

I certainly love both, and plan on picking up a couple field grade M1s in the VERY near future.

I have a question, though.  Does it concern anyone that the m1 has no flash hider?  I consider that a good feature of the m1a (even though my scout squad has a brake, not a hider).  Who here has fantasized about a flash hider installed on their garand?  Don't judge me if I'm the only one 

J

[SamD]

I've never noticed that a flash hider or lack thereof has made any difference in how well I shot or in the accuracy or amount of returned fire.

The are a couple of flash hiders available for the M1 if it's an issue for anyone.
A US gov model that clips on to the bayonet lug and a commercial one that replaces the CG lock.

Sam

[Nickle]

The Army/Marines had 2 different kinds, one officially adopted (M2), one left "experimental" (T37). The T37 was never fully adopted, though some are said to have been fielded. Both were only intended for the M1C and M1D Sniper rifles, and if I were to put a flash suppressor on my M1, it would be the T37 type.

They sell for $30 to $50, and at those prices, I'd say they probably are replicas. Some yahoo tried selling one (real one, not a replica) this month on Gunbroker starting at $250. Needless to say, he got no bids.

Take notice that they aren't used by the match shooters. Also note that National Match M14's had the suppressors opened up some.

[Old Dog]

I've only used the T37 type.  Looks nice.  Probably not really necessary due to the big long barrel on the M1 Garand. 

I had to drill mine out quite a bit on the inside as the bullets were "skating" up the bottom prong and hitting 6" high at 25 meters.

[Appalacious]

Thanks guys.

J

[longjohn]

Is that the consensus, that they're not needed on an M1?  I'd hate to muck up a perfectly good rifle if there's no point.  I was considering getting one of the T37 replicas from Fulton Armory or Sarco (I think they have them).

[Garand69]

 The problem with flash hiders or any other device attached to the end of a barrel is it concentricity, and does it allow exiting gases to pass the bullet evenly. If it does not, you will have accuracy issues. If it contacts the bullet, even worse (hench the tapered reamer treatment to M14 flash hiders). Most of the T-37's that I have seen were poorly made and the flash hider cuts were not equally spaced around the bores axis. Do they look kick a$$, hell yeah, but as an aid to making Rifleman or concealing your position, I think they are a waste.

[Old Dog]

One thing about it.  If you get it, and don't like it or have accuracy problems it's as easy to remove as it was to install.

To install - remove the gas plug, unscrew the gas cylinder lock (keep this in your pocket), screw the T37 on it (takes the place of the gas cylinder lock) and reinstall the gas plug and tighten it.  If it doesn't work out you can remove the T37, reinstall your original gas cylinder lock and you're back to normal.

After all these years with my M1A, an M1 just looks naked with that T37 on it.

To each his own.  Many folks don't like my synthetic stock or scout scope set up either but it shoots just fine for me and feels right - and that's what counts.

[Talon]

 

[kissell]

Sorry guys I couldn't find the best site for this inquiry. Having been chartised for 3 days over my missing the intent of Appleseed and stressing markmanship, a little thought  came to me. Several years ago I attended Appleseed in Evansville (RED BRUSH) and noticed when the shooters took the line there had been no ammo inspection for the gas-guns. Hopefully you already caught my point, but if not, let us suppose some dufus decides to use his half-a** ammo reloads, or stick too hot a 308 in his 7.62X51 and suppose this thing blows up and the poor fellow to his right has to eat what's left of his op. rod. What then, just a casuality of the training? I would highly recommend gas-gun ammo be inspected prior to the entering the firing line. You know the old saying "if it can go wrong, it will". Not trying to change how Appleseed does things, just looking out for you a little.

[Surculus]

I have been having problems getting youngsters to want the M1.  I love mine.  They think it is not sexy enough, I guess.

Get'em to use the right dictionary. I forget what publisher or printing it was [sometime post '80, but one of the dictionaries available for general referral at the college library where I went to school had a line art Garand under the heading "rifle."

It doesn't get much cooler than that!

[Surculus]

Is that the consensus, that they're not needed on an M1?  I'd hate to muck up a perfectly good rifle if there's no point.  I was considering getting one of the T37 replicas from Fulton Armory or Sarco (I think they have them).

Well, the T37 type [being screw on] does prevent the use of a bayonet w/ the rifle, if that's of any consideration... 

[Geddys Uncle]

I've got a Garand. Love it dearly, but, it's a 9pound sledgehammer.
Got a trio of #4Mk1's, too. Love'em dearly, and shoot'em well.
Got a gaggle of Mosin Nagants in various variants, and various grades of "what the hell kind of story could THIS one tell?"
Got a couple of Yugo Simonovs
Got a couple of long-barreled Mausers, one Turk, one Czech. (the VZ24 started the whole addictive-behavior thing...my gateway gun, if you will)
Got a Schmidt-Rubin K-31 (straight-pulls are smooth...think "hand-operated semi-auto", and GOOD GOD! what accuracy!)
Got an AR, one scoped bull-barrel/freefloated 5.56 upper and a more conventionally outfitted 6.8SPC.


Love them all.  If the SHTF, which one would I carry to the fracas?  Depends upon who my comrades-in-arms were, really.  I'm a scratched-and-dented markdown of a guy, no longer really suitable for run and gun, grab and stab.  Put my butt on a wooded hillside with a Garand or an Enfield (both have peepsights....that kind of assignment would be too important for me to be putzing around with a notch rear-sight), and I'll rain death on the higher-value badguys and destruction on the more expensive pieces of their equipment, while you high-speed/low-drag young whippersnappers get upclose and personal with the confused and leaderless former subordinates of the guys I popped.....make it count, however, because when I become a mortar-shell magnet, I'm no longer fast enough to outrun the shards, and my lead-based thunderstorm mightn't last very long.

So, IMHO, which rifle is best?  Match the piece of equipment to the mission that you're going to assign to the man.  Give the running-and-attacking and "in your face!" guy something light and fast-handling, like an M4.  Give the fat old stationary bastard a Garand, some sandbags and a pile of en bloc clips full of M2 ball.  Give the "in between" reinforcement guys something intermediate, like an M-16/AR15, or a Mosin Nagant carbine, or an AK, or a Simonov, or even a Schmidt-Rubin K-31


For hardhitting/universal ammo, however, I think "best-case-scenario" might be a bunch of guys with 5.56AR-15's and a few guys with AR-10's.

If I had to be used in a run-and-gun capacity (what totally chitty chain of events would have to take place for the Free World to depend on MY running speed?)  I'd prefer a standard-configuration AR.  They're light and accurate.  A small low-horsepower HIT is more valuable than a larger, higher-horsepower MISS....If I've got that kind of condition going on, how much longer will it take for my breathing to settle down if I'm lugging a Garand, compared to an AR?

I hope and pray that NONE of these scenarios, and NONE even remotely similar come to pass.

[M1D]

I've read all of the posts on this thread and learned some things, laughed at some things, and generally enjoyed it, but it seems that the 'best' rifle for any individual is what that individual is most proficient with.  I am fortunate in that I own several MBRs, and unprepared in that I am not yet proficient with any of them.  My plan is to do virtually all of my practice with an LTR until I am at least a Rifleman and then practice with each of the MBRs until I am equally proficient with all of them.  That said I have to agree with those who have said that different rifles can be best utilized for different types of situations.  The 03-A3 is my favorite to shoot and the one with which I am, at this point in my development, the most accurate, and will always be an iron sight weapon for use inside 500 yds.  The M1D is my second favorite and since it is scoped but retains the utility of iron sights is potentially my best all around weapon when I have developed the skill to properly utilize it's capabilities.  The M14 is probably my 'carry'/'utility' rifle with the potential for both accuracy and ease of use.  The scoped AR10T is probably the 'Reach Out and Touch Someone' rifle but the one to which I am least attached.  The M1 Carbine, Mini 14 AR15, and AK 47 types are perimeter defense or assault weapons.  Why so many MBRs (I don't yet own them all)?  I am the one within my 'squad (family)' with the resources to obtain them and have each one assigned to an individual who would have the primary responsibility for the purpose to which each rifle is best suited.  I don't plan to ever use these weapons for these purposes but I don't plan for my house to burn either but I still pay the insurance premium.  Meanwhile I will continue to go to Appleseeds, practice, and recruit others to do the same and will be having fun at the same time.

[henschman]

the fact that you can get 3 or 4 m1s for the price of an m1a is pretty tempting (and pretty decisive for me).  why not grab one as a shooter and another to keep for parts? 

[Rhodes]

Generally I like to avoid this kind of thread since nothing is ever settled. But here is my 2 cents and excuse the inflation. I hate talking about other peoples choice of weapons so can only give my opinion on mine.

Ive had enough of the M-16 and the 223 in the military.

I am very impressed with simple rifles that would shoot under the conditions of a battle field. Mud, sand, dirt, rain, all kinds of matter falling from the sky, etc in short no telling what that rifle will have deal with to operate. MBR is not for putting holes in paper and the one thing it must do is fire no matter what and hit center of mass close enough to do what I need at up to 300 yards. Of course every rifle can and does fail but its the likelihood that matters. When I see a receiver packed with mud fire dependably that's the weapon I want in my hands given a choice.

I avoided the AKs from mil surplus just due to the fact of what they go though before they get to us and purchased a Saiga. After converting that god awful fire control group it's a fine MBR. Yes I want an Garand also for every reason I wanted the AK plus its the quintessential American Battle Rifle by which all others are judged. I know ammo is not cheap but Id rather have 90 rounds of 30 cal rifle than 300 of a lesser caliber. Yeah I know I'm weird.

[Old Dog]

I hear the wait is pretty long now (so hurry up and order a bunch) but the Greek surplus from the CMP is the best deal out there on ammo.  Its the right caliber for your CMP M1, its non-corrosive, its reloadable, its dependable and accurate.  Don't get caught wishing you'd ordered some (lots ).

[fepowered]

I avoided the AKs from mil surplus just due to the fact of what they go though before they get to us and purchased a Saiga.

There is no such thing as a mil surplus semiauto AK...  This is a misconception.  The WASR rifles are all new production rifles as were the MAC 90s, Maadis, MISR, etc of years past.  Most of the SKS rifles you will find are what you can consider surplus with the exception of some Chinese versions exported by Norinco in the late 80s early 90s.   
It is precisely because of my USMC experiences with the M16 that I am a huge AR proponent and this is my "go to" rifle.   I would rather see someone with a SKS than with nothing because they are saving more money.  That is the beauty of Appleseed.  You are encouraged to "run what you brung" and rifle snobbery is just plain taboo and foolish.   A person can argue on other boards 24/7 about what is better, but our message and mission both dictate that it simply does not matter if you can shoot 4MOA with it and qualify as a Rifleman.   

[B9]

I hear the wait is pretty long now (so hurry up and order a bunch) but the Greek surplus from the CMP is the best deal out there on ammo.  Its the right caliber for your CMP M1, its non-corrosive, its reloadable, its dependable and accurate.  Don't get caught wishing you'd ordered some (lots ).

Order limit of 12 cans (192 rounds) per year now.

[Rhodes]

I avoided the AKs from mil surplus just due to the fact of what they go though before they get to us and purchased a Saiga.

There is no such thing as a mil surplus semiauto AK...  snip..

It is precisely because of my USMC experiences with the M16 that I am a huge AR proponent and this is my "go to" rifle.   

I would rather see someone with a SKS than with nothing because they are saving more money. 

That is the beauty of Appleseed.  You are encouraged to "run what you brung" and rifle snobbery is just plain taboo and foolish.   A person can argue on other boards 24/7 about what is better, but our message and mission both dictate that it simply does not matter if you can shoot 4MOA with it and qualify as a Rifleman.   

I know the import system and replacing the receivers, been dealing with it for years now. Some are good some not, some barrels better than others, wanted that new Russian one along with that excellent barrel, its even cheaper now. Been looking for a used hydraulic press to stamp out one or two AK receivers myself right now just for giggles, might be fun.

As for the M-16 I think it has to do more with what part of its cycle you were introduced to it. Vietnam era was not its shinning moment and it really made us jealous of those AKs. It stuck so that's where I come from on this. I finally have the MBR I always wanted and since Tech-Sights is bringing out good sights for it Im happy.

I really like the SKS once a couple of items that are well documented are fixed. I wont go into it here but if anyone has one go to the SKS forums and see how to check your rifle. Kind of the Russian Garand especially with the Tech-Sights installed.

Amen to that. So far with the Ammo being what it is of late the 22LR is what I saw on the line in all but a couple of cases, one AR and Saiga. I see that as a good thing though since people were more focused on the shooting than the rifle. Fortunate side effect of an unfortunate event.