At Your SECOND 25M Clinic, What Rifle and Ammo Did You Use? Lessons Learned?

[DEH]

The thread about your first rifle and ammo use at a 25m clinic is interesting. https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=69095.msg428613;topicseen#msg428613

The reason I am starting this thread and asking this question is to see what lessons we learned from our first clinic.

At my first clinic in 2008 I used my Springfield Armory M1A with Federal American Eagle 150 grain .308 with a simple 2 point sling.

At my SECOND clinic I used a Thompson Center R22 with Federal Brown box .22LR and a 1917 sling.  The lesson I learned is that I needed to work on my fundamentals more and that .22 was the less expensive way to do so. Also the appropriate equipment helps.

I did not learn every lesson as I was still trying to use the inadequate factory sights at this event.

[Zorak]

With practice, the rifle I used for my first Appleseed could have easily shot Rifleman, but I can never leave well enough alone. I had my 10/22 in a Nordic Components chassis that made it look like an AR-15. Post-Appleseed, I went to give it a really thorough cleaning, and realized that all the bits in the chassis made the gun a lot harder to maintain. I put it in a more conventional chassis, then decided that since I had to remount the scope anyway, I could afford a newer and better scope. Never mind that a great many people have qualified with irons or scopes worse than a 20yr old 4x32, I wanted more.

[Mrs. Smith]

Same as the first, actually. In fact it's still my preferred 25m platform. I swapped out the tech sights for glass, but other than that it's exactly the same. I've shot over 240 many times with it.

Pre-1985 Marlin model 60

[Leadslinger66]

At my first event, I shot my 10/22 but had trouble with it. I borrowed a 10/22 from Tellico to finish the event. After repairs and a few upgrades, my 10/22 is still in use today; many AQTs and loaned out many times.

At my second event, I shot my Smith and Wesson M&P 15T. I don't remember exactly which ammo, but likely Federal  55gr XM193. Of course, that was back when .556 was about .25 per round.

[Smallbore]

M&P 15/22 Performance Center with Eley Club ammunition.
Same combination ever since (unless I'm using a high-power rifle, then it's handloads).

Lessons learned, do not use polymer sling rails. I used so much sling pressure in the prone position that the rail teeth snapped. This actually happened twice during the weekend.

[Big John]

Technically, at my first Appleseed, which was an instructor shoot day that I got vouched for and got into, I shot a Colt AR at KD which I still have. Had I had it sighted in better (thing needs a decent amount of mechanical windage left off the stock sights that dumb me thought was barrel pulling when I was dumb) I might have qualified.

At my first 25, like said in the other thread, a 10-22 my Dad gave me with a busted stock that had been his departed friend's truck gun for pests. I put a stock and a scope and a sling on it. Qualified.

At the second 25, I put a Volquartsen trigger pack in it. Picked up several points. It'll do 240s if I do my part and I check the scope's sighting beforehand.

I don't clean it enough, it was light firing in the cold last winter.

[Bundt Pan]

My first and second were with a mostly stock 10-22, just did the auto bolt/extended mag release, and tech sights. At the time (and probably still mostly accurate) my issues were not quality of equipment but quality of shooter. Lots of dry fire between 1 and 2 was the difference. I also added vet wrap to prevent slippage on the comb. Facial hair and smooth wood are a bad combination for maintaining my turkey neck.

No idea on the ammo.

THe more time ive spent on the 10-22, stock fitment is becoming more apparent of an issue. I struggle getting "cozy" and i think a lot of that is the stock.

[Dmthomp32]

At my second event I used a 10-22 that I built with a Simmons 3-9x AO scope and shot Aguila Pistol Match ammo (love that stuff pretty cheap and runs in all my guns). I eventually moved up my game from a 216 (first match high with irons) to shooting 230's with one questionable 240. Biggest things I figured out in my second event where the following: how to settle into your NPOA (stop forcing/man handling your shots), use the least amount of scope magnification, and when standing they literally mean put that buttock on top of your collar bone. That last one took my stage one scores to almost a 48+ every time.

[Gus]

I like the question!

In my case I kind of outsmarted myself and in a way, did significantly worse. Part of it was equipment and part of it was my left shoulder.

I used the same rifle, a 10/22 Sporter, but I removed the tech sights and installed an 'ultra cheap' Tru-Glo 4x scope. I bought it off Ebay for, I think, $12.  As it turned out, I got exactly what I paid for.....

The day before my second Appleseed event, I went out to the Birchwood range and zeroed the rifle. All went well. I was as prepared as I could be.

I had injured my left shoulder between the March '19 and April '19 events. Without a great deal of pain, I could not get into prone, but standing and sitting was pain free. So, I fired standing in stage one and sitting in stages 2, 3 and 4. That's ok because I shoot near equally from seated as I do prone.

Anyway that Tru-Glo scope failed sometime on Saturday afternoon. I had a terrible time of it and I was wondering if it was my shoulder, the sun going in and out when clouds rolled over, and other issues. finally, during prep, I was doing some dry fire. I could clearly see the crosshairs bouncing around when the hammer drove the firing pin forward!  That was my 'A-ha!' moment. But that moment of clarity didn't come until well into the AQT grind on Sunday.  Despite that I managed one score of 214. Most of my AQTs were in the 160s and 170s.

As for ammo I was using CCI Mini Mags, 40 gr round nose.

After that shoot I replaced that Tru-Glo with a 2-7x Nikon rimfire tactical and switched over to using CCI Standard Velocity.  All has been well ever since.

In Liberty,

Gus

[BD]

I brought the M1 for the second one too.  The biggest change was I picked up four 2 round enblocs in the interim.  I brought an ammo can full of loaded enblocs and before every AQT, I'd take one apart and clip up four 2 rounders.  Then I could focus on the target without doing any magazine prep between rounds.  Scores went up.

[Not Sure]

I upgraded from a borrowed Marlin Model 60 to a Ruger Target 10/22 model 1262 for my second Appleseed.  I was adventurous and installed a Kidd trigger kit.  I topped with a Nikko Stirling 4-16x and knew I was good to go.  The patch remained elusive, however.  Toward the end of day 2, I realized I was pushing the rifle forward off my shoulder to get proper eye relief despite the scope being mounted about as far forward as it would go on the stock Ruger scope rail.  Once the rail was replaced with a Volquartsen extended rail, the patch was earned at 3rd event.

[Not Sure]

Forgot the ammo part.  That was upgraded from Fed Automatch to the old Eley bull ammo the CMP used to sell.  I still have about a case and a half of it.

[devilkitty]

Same Ruger 10/22T and old Tasco. This time it wore a Boyd's thumbhole varminter stock which fit me much better, Volquartsen extractor, and sported a Kidd trigger. I sported a month of dry fire practice. I also learnt that the old girl thought the Federals were gumdrops - I used to keep a 0.16" ten shot group I shot off the bench in my wallet to look at if I started to think it was the rifle. 235 and an orange hat...

[TNPatriot]

at my second, i used the same 10/22 but it was properly bedded in Boyds stock, had a better sling(1907) and new glasses/contacts so i could see. 

[mmirate]

At my second clinic I was using a homemade AR lower from a different, more rigid material than at my first clinic, paired with the cheapest hunk-o'-junk .22 upper I could find, and CCI Mini-Mags (standard velocity stuff will stovepipe consistently on this upper as the bolt is unusually heavy).

[Twineagles]

My first was a scoped bolt action CZ 452 Scout with a neoprene sling, and only 1 - 5 rnd magazine. It was 2008 and the 2nd Appleseed ever in Iowa. I signed up based on a flyer handed me at a gun show. I ended up pulling the scope, my neck was sore from lifting my head to see through it. Best results for that day 174.

The second I used a 10/22 with tech sight, and a GI web sling. I danced around scoring a patch, A 204 and a 206. It was late August in Iowa, and the heat took its toll. My last AQT of the day was 186.

My third I had mounted a scope to the 10/22 and some foam pipe insulation to raise my cheek mount. That worked the first AQT of the day 212. As I was walking back to the line after being presented with my patch, I was hit in the back by an orange hat tossed by the shootboss. I worked the rest of the shoot.

[Sim]

Appleseed #2 was shot with a recently purchased 10/22 model 31216. This model's main features are a threaded barrel and a Magpul X-22 MOE stock. Both of these features are great for turning the rifle into a light, quiet, very fun plinker. Neither of these features are useful for precision shooting. 

The factory trigger was not good on my rifle, easily 5 pounds with a bit of crunch. Polishing in the garage did not have a major effect, but my wallet pride wouldn't allow me to buy a full trigger or kit from Kidd or Volquartsen, so I settled for a target sear and target hammer from Power Customs for $70 all in. The improved trigger is excellent and I'm sure contributed 10 points to my score.

Tech sights were easy enough to mount on the rifle, and are even co-witnessed with the red dot that I use in plinking configuration.

I also made a custom adjustable cheek riser to address the main shortcoming of the MOE stock. I probably could have bought the one sold on the Appleseed store to similar effect, but I am apparently stubborn about these things.

Sling swivels popped right in to the pre-molded "studs" in the stock and worked great.

Overall, the improved trigger and the cheek riser were the two biggest factors in my improvement over event 1.

[Fulcrum]

I already posted about my Second Appleseed Rifle in the First Appleseed Rifle thread, but I can always talk a bit more about my rifles!

For my second Appleseed, I upgraded from a 10/22 Backpacker with a Hunter forend to a 10/22 60th Anniversary Special Edition. Ruger always has about a dozen, maybe more, models in production, and I picked this model for my second Appleseed rifle specifically for features I wanted based on lessons learned at my first Appleseed.

Lesson 1 — Takedowns don't group well or hold zero under sling tension. I chose a new rifle that is not a takedown. This is actually the main reason I felt I needed to buy a new rifle!

Lesson 2 — It's important to be able to customize your length of pull and cheek height to get repeatable eye alignment in the scope. The new rifle I chose came with a Magpul Hunter stock that includes spacers for length of pull, and you can buy Magpul cheek riser kits to adjust the comb height.

Lesson 3 — QD sling mounts and swivels are handy. The Magpul Hunter stock on the new rifle has multiple mounting points for QD cups. And it also has hard points for studs if you prefer.

Lesson 4 — Trigger quality can make a difference. This is not actually a lesson I had learned personally through experience, but I had heard a lot up people discussing upgraded triggers, and I bought the second rifle knowing it came with an upgraded BX trigger, and I can verify, it makes a difference.

Lesson 5 — Anything that can help you keep track of round counts and get your magazines prepped before an AQT starts is helpful. So I bought a couple clear mags for stages 2 and 3 at the same time I bought the new rifle. Then I bought a couple more for my next Appleseed, and a couple more for the one after that. Now I have 6 and can load up a full AQT worth of mags and see how many rounds are in each one.

That was my thought process for making my purchasing decision for my second Appleseed rifle, and I've been very happy with it. Since then, I've learned a lesson or two about reliability and made some parts upgrades to keep the rifle running smoothly and have been more diligent about cleaning up gunk and keeping things lubed properly.

I have pretty happy with the Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32 scope I bought from the Appleseed store for my first rifle and moved to the second rifle. It's good for stages 1-3, but I'm starting to think it's not quite enough for stage 4. My eyes are very bad. This may be my next lesson, and I might try to upgrade it next.

[wingwrench]

  At my first two 25 meter events I ran a borrowed 1930 something pump action octagon barrel Savage with Redfield adjustable rear sights, and a brass bead front sight. Couldn't tell you the ammunition.

  My brother in law's father had put food on the table often as a young boy with that rifle.

  The rifle still ran fine, and was quite accurate.

  I shot rifleman's score the second shoot.

[AdmiralKirk]

Winchester Wildcat.  First Appleseed I went with a Marlin 795 with tech sights.  Front sight fell off the first day.  With the Winchester Wildcat the rear sight fell off the first day. 

[codyClemonade]

The rifle that's still my go-to. 10/22 in a Magpul Hunter stock, Vortex 2-7 scope. Stepped up to CCI Standard Velocity ammo.

The only upgrades I've made since that 2nd event was a BX trigger and swapped the scope rail to the 20MOA version to shoot a 200yd RFKD.

[Maximus]

I had a similar experience.  Was oblivious to the sling requirement, so found out the hard way that 5.56 mini 14 with no sling at 25M and iron sights left quite a bit to be desired.  Not having the correct detachable sling is a major handicap, and I think the 22lr is of course much easier to shoot.  Obviously a better trigger makes for a better experience as well. 

The other mistake I made at another even was when I went with a scope, it was mounted to far back.  So while scopes are great, shooting of a bench vs prone for me makes a difference in the mounting position.   That was the other big take away for me!  Also with a scope, I found I need some kind of cheek riser to get the eye in the right position, otherwise I had to shoot more from of a chin weld than a cheek weld!   I do think the iron sites are the most comfortable to shoot.   

Next time I went 22lr in 10/22, properly slinged with tech sights and was on my path to rifleman.  22lr is the way to go in my opinion at that 25m distance, and it makes for a much more pleasant line vs a bunch of 5.56/.223 that have a much more intense report that fatigues other shooters too.