Willams peep sights

[Mark Davis]

Williams has started selling a new sight that might be of interest to Rimfire KD shooters here.
It is micrometer adjustable, dovetail mounted, and at it's lowest setting within a few thousandths of the height of the infamous, aggravatingly difficult to adjust, lacking reference of direction, Tec-Sight.

Williams, FP series GR TK # 9685

https://www.amazon.com/WILLIAMS-FP-GR-TAR-KNOB/product-reviews/B004Y6Z57E

Left the Tec-Sight front on, should work.

Had to do a small amount of stock inletting to get it mounted.

Have not been to the range yet.

[pblanc]

I do not find adjusting elevation on the Tech Sight TRS200 all that difficult, once you get the hang of it and have the tool sold by Tech Sight.  But this does look interesting.

Does this mount on the 3/8" dovetail center rail on the stock Ruger accessory rail?

Do you know what the diameter of the aperture is?

I assume that you had to relieve the stock for the left hand body of the sight where the elevation adjustment screw is housed, yes?

If so, have much did you have to relieve the stock and what type of stock was it?

I would like to hear a report as to how well it works with the Tech Sight front sight after you have a chance to shoot it.

[Mark Davis]

The sight has 1/2" elevation adjustment. My rifle has a 18 1/2" barrel and a Tec-Sight front sight, with a sight radius of 22 1/4".

Right triangle with .5 height, 22.25 width gives an angle of 1.2873.

60 minutes in a degree, gives this sight 75 minutes elevation.

With the elevation adjustable front Tec-Sight, this Williams rear sight can be used to full advantage.

From my dope book, 10-22, 20" green mountain barrel. CCI Blazer ammunition

Logan Range 4,200' elevation. Temp 60F.

320 yards requires 54 minutes elevation from my 25, and 75 yard Zero.

[Mark Davis]

Having bought the Tec sights 11 years ago, My special tool sold by Tec sights has probably rusted away by now, laying in the dirt of some range. Could be Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon.

The Williams has knobs turned by hand, a small flat blade screwdriver should be used  to tighten the lock screw when adjusting windage. Other wise adjusted with fingers.

It does mount on a 3/8 dovetail, and might even fit an 11MM rail.

Pin gage measured aperture .092, you have the option of moving the sight along the rail, front to rear, giving a bit of adjustment. Using that adjustment will require more stock inletting.

The stock is Ruger, wood. I removed a rectangle, about 5/8 wide, 1/2 tall, 1/8 deep.

I will try to post a pic, been having some trouble on that front since a phone "upgrade".

[pblanc]

A picture would be great.  I have a birch 10/22 carbine stock that I would be willing to inlet to accept this sight.

[Mark Davis]

Sight goes to the bottom of inlet when adjusted too lowest setting.

[maxwell]

Mark, is the sight close enough to your eye with the Ruger dovetail? I really like the idea of this, as I have a Stevens 416 trainer with similar sights, and the lack of a knob on Tech Sights is perpetually annoying. Thanks for pointing out a new option!

[Mark Davis]

It seems OK so far, but no shooting yet.
I'm a big guy, and 10-22s are sized for people just under average size.
As it sits now, it could come back about 1 inch on the rail.
Hope to make it to the range in the morning.

[Mark Davis]

Range report.
This sight is not, a no tool required system.
A flat jeweler's screwdriver is needed to making windage adjustments.
A small flat (larger than the jeweler's) screwdriver is vital for elevation adjustments.

Without tightening the lock screws enough that the sight will not adjust, the sight adjustment values are difficult to repeat. And the group sloppy too!

Logan range 4200' elevation
Air temp 16F
Wind calm
Ammo, Winchester 555s

Posted a squares target at 25 yards fired 5 at the center two hits in the bottom row of squares, three off the paper, but a group about 3 minutes.
Gib screw was not snug.
(The gib screw is in the elevation dovetail the sight slides up and down on. When tight, the sight stays stationary)

Adjusted up 18 clicks, gib screw was even looser than before, group was 10 minutes higher, four shots 4 minutes right one shot 1 minute right.

Adjusted up 18 clicks, gib screw was tight. Group was centered windage, but gained 1 minute in elevation.

Getting a little smarter here.....

Adjusted up 20 clicks, gib screw tight. Group was centered for windage but hit 5 minutes higher.

Adjusted up 16 clicks, gib screw tight. Group was 2 minutes wide centered in the square, and 4 minutes above last group.

I did not adjust windage. I did not adjust elevation on front sight.

Starting with loose gib screw, and the sight bottomed out, the first group was 21 minutes low.
Adjusting the sight up 72 clicks brought the group to point of aim.

The sight has 428 more clicks of elevation.

I plan to adjust the front sight so the 25 yard zero is closer to 10 clicks from the sight bottomed out.
This will make finding the rifles zero as easy as adjusting to the bottom, and count up a few clicks, then count up more for greater distance.

[pblanc]

So at least for the sight radius of your rifle, each click of elevation adjustment shifts POI by 1/4 MOA, yes?  Do you know if the windage adjustment per click is the same?

[Mark Davis]

It's pretty close to 1/4 minute per click.

I had aspirations of shooting a box on the target, the ammo I was trying to use up, pretty marginal quality, pop, pop, splut. has a good percentage of weak rounds. Started getting cold and reliable function was going down hill fast.

So headed home for honeydos. We are forecast high 30s and sunshine for Wednesday. Being two days out I'm not holding my breath.

I did not adjust the windage, with the gib screw tight and the windage lock screw tight, it shot to center.
I would assume Williams has been building sight long enough to use the same threads. And the adjustment value should be the same.

[pblanc]

What were your thoughts on the size of the aperture peep?  The reason I ask is that it seems to me that some might find an aperture of 0.92 a bit large for some applications.

I am currently using a TSR200RL rail-mounted rear sight.  This works just like the TSR200 but mounts on the center 3/8" dovetail rail of the Ruger 10/22 accessory rail.  It can be slid forward or backward on the rail similar to this Williams sight.  With the sight body lined up flush with the rear end of the rail, the peep is in about the same location fore and aft as your photo shows.

The standard peep on the Tech Sights TSR200 series is .062" diameter.  I have been playing around with what Tech Sight calls an "insert ready aperture system" (IRAS) which replaces the rear sight post with one of a larger diameter that accepts insertable apertures of different diameters.  The three diameters are .042", .062", and .086".  I am currently using the smallest .042 aperture insert but it could be a little bigger.  The Tech Sight IRAS sort of works, but the inserts are silicone and can be deformed or accidentally pulled out of the rear sight post.

I do see that Williams makes and sells apertures of .050" for this sight, which might be just about perfect for my needs.  I would be using this strictly for target shooting at 25-50 yard ranges most likely.

[Mark Davis]

My eyesight is to a point where aperture sights are getting difficult.

Looking through the sight I can see the wings of the frontsight on either side, but cannot see the top of the wings.
They go out of view right at the last bend.

The large flat visible on either side of the peep is very comforting, it's like the feeling of control you get sighting down a side by side double barrel shotgun.
The flat is also good reference of how level the rifle is, as you settle into NPOA.

Like you mention, The aperture can be changed, or even left out which leaves a ghost ring about .200 works pretty good, should you go hunting and need a wider field of view.

Small lenses are sold to fit in the aperture for old, fuzzy eyed guys like me.

[Mark Davis]

Another easily fixed, but likely a bloodgiving flaw.  Those two setscrews on the right side are 5/16" long.
They will be replaced by 1/8" setscrews.

[Mark Davis]

The 1/8" set screws were to short, and despite using Loctite, the sights were falling off the rifle within 100 rounds fired.
Replaced them with 1/4" set screws, and just a couple threads length stick out, much less likely to tear a piece of skin off your knuckles while racking the bolt.

My old front Tec-sight needed a little clean up and burr removal so it could be adjusted lower. The hole for the plunger and spring would not allow the plunger to go deep enough for the front sight post to bottom. I took a #29 drill, and holding in with a small chuck and turning by hand made the hole deeper, until I could just see the bit start to break through the bottom of the hole. Then polished a wire edge off the plunger.

This allowed me to get the front sight a few revolutions  deeper. Now my 25 yard zero is 31 clicks up from the rear sight bottomed out.

This sight, with 22 1/4 radius gives 9 minutes group change with 40 click adjustment.
So the value of adjustments is just under  (10% less than) 1/4 minute per click.

Same value for both windage and elevation.

[pblanc]

After reading about Mark's experience with this sight, I went ahead and bought one and tried it for the first time the day before yesterday.  I ordered an aperture from Williams Gun Sight with a .050" diameter peep as well.

I mounted this sight on the dovetail central rail of the standard Ruger 10/22 accessory rail on the top of a stock carbine model with 18.5 inch barrel and a synthetic black stock.  I had previously mounted a Tech Sight front sight on this barrel and was using a rail mounted TSR200RL Tech Sight rear sight on this carbine.  I have replaced the A1 style front sight post that came with the Tech Sight front sight with an A2 style post. 

I am not trying to go for maximum MOA elevation adjustment capability for shooting at distance as Mark was, so I did not feel a need to get this sight mounted at as low a sight height axis as possible.  I zeroed the sights at 25 meters and at that range I still have 3/4 of the elevation "up" adjustment available on the rear sight.  I did not have to relieve the synthetic black carbine stock at all to fit the sight.  If I wound the rear sight all the way down, I might conceivably need to relieve the top of the stock a few millimeters but I don't anticipate a need to do that. 

Here are my impressions, good and bad, compared to a Tech Sight rail-mounted rear sight which I had been using with the Tech Sight insert-ready aperture system vinyl aperture inserts.

First, the sight seems to be quite solid and mounts securely.  The steel apertures work much better than the vinyl apertures of the Tech Sight IRAS.  The sight picture is much improved.  The sights also allow for much finer adjustments of both elevation and windage than the Tech Sight rear sight.

The sight is considerably more bulky than the Tech Sight TSR200RL.  I don't really see this as an issue, although some might.  I would not call this sight easier to adjust than the Tech Sight TSR200 series sights.  Quite the opposite.  Adjusting windage requires using a very small jeweler's screw driver in a very small set screw.  Adjusting windage on the Tech Sight is easier, but the adjustment is much coarser.  To adjust elevation you don't need the fiddly Tech Sight elevation adjustment tool, but you again need the tiny jeweler's screw driver plus a larger screw driver for the GIB screw.

For target shooting I think this sight when used in conjunction with the Tech Sight front sight works very well.  Just set the rear sight to a fairly low elevation setting and use the Tech Sight front sight post for coarse elevation adjustments, then the Williams rear sight for fine elevation adjustments.  It also allows for much finer windage adjustments than the Tech Sight rear sights.  The apertures are much preferred to those of the Tech Sight IRAS.  I preferred the .050" aperture to the larger one.  But making adjustments on the rear sight is a bit fiddly and requires decent eyesight and good light.

[Tennessee Beast]

I just set up my Ruger 10/22 DSP with the following:

Williams FP-AG-TK Receiver Sight
Lyman Globe Sights: #17ATC @ .852″ height,"
Williams Aperture 3/8″ Diameter with .050 aperture
Weaver T0-9 top mount base ( one piece tip-off base)

This set up is a little higher than Mark's setup, but does not require inletting. 

[Tennessee Beast]

Update...this combo won't work at 25 meters.  I guess I will get the lower rear sight.

[Mark Davis]

Hope you get it worked out with minimal trial and error.

[Tennessee Beast]

I ordered the other sight.  I will give a full report soon (February?).

[Tennessee Beast]

The GR sight came in. I'm going to try the GR base and AG top.  The AG top is shorter and does not require stock modification.   I lose about half the elevation range, but wasn't planning on shooting past 100 yards anyway. Full details to come.