Thoughts on AKM-style rifles for Appleseed?

[ErikO]

In a couple months I will be taking delivery of a new production C39V2 (none of the previous manufacture issues are apparent) and was wondering if anyone has thoughts on optics and placement of said optics that would work best for both standard Appleseed shoots and possibly Known Distance events.  This particular rifle comes with the Zhukov handguard and stock but no side rail on the left side of the receiver.  Right now I am down to deciding between either a Ultimak gastube mounted red dot (probably a Primary Arms) or else a steel Master Mount (aftermarket side rail that requires no gunsmithing to install) and a traditional .308 optic.  I will be using an M1/M16 style sling on QD mounts, so that much I already have planned out.

[2 clicks low]

It's not about the gun.
It's never about the gun.
If you like the AK, shoot the AK.
If you want a scope get one. Or just use the iron sights.
You have the sling, don't NEED anything else.
2 clicks low

PS (I have yet to see anyone make rifleman with a red dot)

[maxwell]

standard Appleseed shoots and possibly Known Distance events
[…]
I am down to deciding between either a Ultimak gastube mounted red dot (probably a Primary Arms) or else a steel Master Mount (aftermarket side rail that requires no gunsmithing to install) and a traditional .308 optic.

Get the traditional optic or use irons if you're going to shoot KD. I have a Primary Arms RDS, and it's been reliable and held zero; the RDS is nice for fast target acquisition and making hits, but not so great for groups (based on what I've observed on the line and my own limited efforts with it…YMMV!). I hear there are people who have shot a Rifleman score with one and we'll work with what you've got, but it would not be my first choice.

[ErikO]

It's not about the gun.
It's never about the gun.
If you like the AK, shoot the AK.
If you want a scope get one. Or just use the iron sights.
You have the sling, don't NEED anything else.
2 clicks low

PS (I have yet to see anyone make rifleman with a red dot)

Roger that, exactly the sort of advice I anticipated.  Thank you for bringing me back to sanity before I spent a ton of money on geegaws instead of ammo and range time. 

I'll start with the stock irons and go from there, using the sling instruction I already got. 

[ErikO]

standard Appleseed shoots and possibly Known Distance events
[…]
I am down to deciding between either a Ultimak gastube mounted red dot (probably a Primary Arms) or else a steel Master Mount (aftermarket side rail that requires no gunsmithing to install) and a traditional .308 optic.

Get the traditional optic or use irons if you're going to shoot KD. I have a Primary Arms RDS, and it's been reliable and held zero; the RDS is nice for fast target acquisition and making hits, but not so great for groups (based on what I've observed on the line and my own limited efforts with it…YMMV!). I hear there are people who have shot a Rifleman score with one and we'll work with what you've got, but it would not be my first choice.

The Master Mount and a quality optics rig will likely work better for me financially in the long run especially with the KD, I appreciate it. 

[jmdavis]

Red dots have been used by riflemen in the past. EOTech's and Aimpoints, and even Ultradots work fine at 25yards with reasonable dot sizes or with a 6 or sub six hold. And I have seen them used at KD ranges to good effect on popups, steel, and hits count targets out to 400 yards.

I don't recommend them, but they do work particularly when co-witnessed with irons.

The biggest issue I have seen with AKs is the ammo being used. 6 MOA ammo with a 4 MOA rifle, and even a 2 MOA shooter makes a 210 at 25m or a 200 at KD difficult. But you can make hits on targets.

[maxwell]

And I have seen them used at KD ranges to good effect on popups, steel, and hits count targets out to 400 yards.

A word of explanation as to why I wouldn't use one for an Appleseed KD: the Primary Arms RDS that I have is a pain to adjust, requiring a screwdriver and a good feel for tiny clicks. A2 irons or target turrets are easier to work with when you need to adjust your zero at each firing distance, IMHO. High-end red dots may be different.

[Mutant Texan]

In a couple months I will be taking delivery of a new production C39V2 (none of the previous manufacture issues are apparent) and was wondering if anyone has thoughts on optics and placement of said optics that would work best for both standard Appleseed shoots and possibly Known Distance events.  This particular rifle comes with the Zhukov handguard and stock but no side rail on the left side of the receiver.  Right now I am down to deciding between either a Ultimak gastube mounted red dot (probably a Primary Arms) or else a steel Master Mount (aftermarket side rail that requires no gunsmithing to install) and a traditional .308 optic.  I will be using an M1/M16 style sling on QD mounts, so that much I already have planned out.

Have you considered other options?

The 7.62x39 is my favorite caliber.  With that being said, I absolutely hate the AK platform for a rifle.  I do however love this platform for shotguns (my favorite is the Saiga 20).  I tried many AK based rifle designs and gave up on them.  Based on my own personal experience shooting the AK, the AK is accurate enough to hit a redcoat sized target at 100 yards consistently.  The legendary reliability of the AK is gained by the large tolerances in the rifle at the expense of precision.

Do you want the AK for reliability?  I have never fired any of my rifles to the point of it malfunctioning due to neglect.  I believe not cleaning & lubing a gun is no different than running a car without oil changes until you get the low oil pressure alarm or the engine starts to malfunction.  So is the AR-15 less reliable than the AK?  I have no idea because I would never let it get that far.  I will also add that I do not clean my barrels with solvents.  I simply run a bore snake through the barrel a few times to remove any fouling and use CLP to clean/lube the other parts of the gun.  There is empirical data that suggests that the precision of a barrel may be adversely affected by cleaning the bore down to ferrous bare base metal with solvents.

When I shoot the 7.62x39, it is with either an old Yugo SKS or my CMMG Mutant (AR platform).  I am a big fan of the AR platform because of the sight options, modular design and ergonomics.  The CMMG Mutant was designed from the start to be chambered in the 7.62x39 rather than trying to modifying an existing AR-15 model to shoot the 7.62x39.  The Mutant also has a .308 bolt in a modified bolt carrier so it has a lot of built in safety margin.  The magazine well is designed to accept the standard AK magazine including drums.  You get the best of all the characteristics of the AR and AK.  The only down side to the Mutant is that is more expensive than the AK by a few hundred bucks.  I run a 2x shotgun scope on my Mutant and have had very good luck with it.

One more thing to also mention about the 7.62x39; the bullet drop is so bad past about 300 yards that I will not bother trying to shoot a KD with it.  The full power calibers or the 5.56x45 appears to be better suited for long ranges because they are more forgiving on bullet drop.  I learned this the hard way after unsuccessfully trying to use the 7.62x39 caliber at 500 yards.  I think I was able to get some hits on the target a few times but more shots missed than hit.

Shooting a rifle well requires both a well built/designed rifle and, more importantly the shooter's skill.  You could gather 10 shooters to shoot each rifle platform at 200 yards with bulk ammunition and develop a Gaussian distribution for each rifle.  I would bet my next paycheck that the AR would end up with a smaller standard deviation.  The precision of the AR design may be enough to makeup for any deficiencies of the shooter's abilities and enable them to score a rifleman score.  That would also mean that more skill is required to use the AK platform to score rifleman.