S&W M&P 15-22 - Dry Firing Not Recommended

[Mango]

Page 14 of the manual states, "Caution: Never dry-fire the rifle as damage to the firearm could result."

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/S&W_M&P_1522_Rifle_Manual_09-01-2013.pdf

I still love my M&P 15-22; it's a fun little rifle.

[jmdavis]

You can dryfire any rifle. The question is, should you dryfire it without something to protect the chamber. For the S&W you could use:

A spent casing from the rifle

A foamy ear plug

A cut piece of a magnetic business card

The plastic of a wall anchor

A dryfire plug


etc etc etc

You need to dryfire if you want to be a good shooter.

Keith Sanderson dryfires an Olympic Rapid Fire Pistol. If one can do that, I assure you that you CAN dryfire the 15/22. You just want to protect the chamber.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

[Big John]

There are 20 packs of orange plastic 22LRs sold for about 4 bucks a piece out of online vendors. I find they last about 20 shots a piece.

[V]

Any one of a mechanical bent see why it would be damaged?

I'm willing to bet that line is a lawyer line 

[Big John]

Nope. Rimfires should not be repeatedly fired as a general rule without something in the chamber.

Centerfires are ok, as the pin just punches air. The rimfire pin may overtravel and hit the chamber wall that the other side of the rim normally locates against. You will will either peen the pin (flatten it) or dent the chamber wall, whichever steel is softer. This happens over time, so one dry fire is not going to ruin the rifle, and it depends on how hard, or even if, the firing pin actually hits the chamber wall without a round being there.

Dry firing a centerfire empty is worse than with a snap cap just because the pin is banging against the extents of the bolt instead of being caught by the primer, but it is much less of a big deal. In either case, the primer is supposed to catch and absorb the energy of the pin via deformation. If it's not there, something else does.

Some very precise target rifles might get something out of calibration by not hitting what it expects as well.

Normal rifle, some 20 rounds dry firing at an Appleseed will not hurt it. Thousands of dry fires might.

[slim]

I'm willing to bet the S&W M&P 15-22 "no dry fire" rule is to protect the sensitive extractor more than anything in the chamber. Repeatedly slamming that bolt home on an empty chamber probably causes that extractor to fly off into the carpet or grass after a few reps.

Every now and then I have folks tell me they don't want to dry fire their rifles. I do my best to explain the inner-workings and what's likely to cause damage and what's not but, at the end of the day, it's their rifle. If they don't want to dry fire I'll say, "Just simulate it." or they can work the clicky pen.

[V]

Thank you. I was looking for specific knowledge of the rifle posed not generalities.

Cheers

[Big John]

Well, excuse me, then, sir.

[V]

Well, excuse me, then, sir.

Its all yours.

So long and thanks for all the fish.
Cheers

[Prescott]

In my humble opinion, I make the best .22 snap cap on the market.   They are vastly superior to the ones you can buy on line.   I am going to start making them in larger quantities and hopefully I will have them for sale through a national outlet this year.

They can be ordered through the Support our Volunteers - Small Business listings at http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=18263.0

[FiremanBob]

Prescott's snap caps really are superior. I tested a few. With one, I had the firing pin strike it at the same spot on the rim over 100 times and it still held together at a thickness sufficient to protect the firing pin and barrel.  You can't get much longer lasting than that. They also cycle very well for ball-and-dummy drills.

As for the M&P, I don't have one, but since this thread was posted I researched the question. The M&P does have a roll pin in the bolt that is supposed to stop the firing pin from extending as far as the bolt face. I would have to try one firsthand to know how well it works. Assuming the stop pin works properly, there should be no reason that you cannot safely dry-fire the M&P with an empty chamber.

[malabar]

Just for the record, rimfires of various stripes really can be damaged by repeated dry-firing. I have a Marlin 92 that's about 100 years old.  It had been dry-fired so many times that the chamber deformed from repeated hammering by the firing pin.  This is a common enough problem on old rimfires that Brownells makes a tool to swage out the deformity (and yes, the tool really works).  On more modern guns, the chamber steel is hard enough  that this is not an issue, but damage to firing pins and extractors is common.   Back when I was competing with my old Anschutz, I used to pop out the firing pin to dry fire.

OTOH, firing pins are easy enough to replace that I wouldn't let it stop me.

tk

[Monkey]

I'm willing to bet the S&W M&P 15-22 "no dry fire" rule is to protect the sensitive extractor more than anything in the chamber. Repeatedly slamming that bolt home on an empty chamber probably causes that extractor to fly off into the carpet or grass after a few reps.

Every now and then I have folks tell me they don't want to dry fire their rifles. I do my best to explain the inner-workings and what's likely to cause damage and what's not but, at the end of the day, it's their rifle. If they don't want to dry fire I'll say, "Just simulate it." or they can work the clicky pen.

I don't know about an empty chamber, by I can tell you that if you send a bolt home on a standard Appleseed chamber flag, the probability of a wayward extractor is high.

DAMHIKT.

I've tried some plastic "action proving" rounds in the 15-22 with marginal success.  Have yet to try Prescott's though.  Perhaps I'll give it a go and report back.

Regards,
Monkey

[ChestyPuller]

I have 3 MP15-22's that I lend out in AS, they have been extensively fired in live and dry fire, DRY fire will not hurt them at all, but as said above dropping the bolt on a chamber flag will send parts flying

dry firing a centerfire will NOT hurt it at all,  I have been doing this for 30+ years with no problems

If you want to get better you have to dry fire alot

[MostlyHarmless]

 

[ItsanSKS]

I would counsel everyone to not dismiss out of hand a manufacturers warning to not dry fire a rifle.  Their engineers were undoubtedly involved in the decision to issue the warning, and unless you have definitive proof to the contrary, you are safer in the long run following their recommendations.

The claim that dry firing a center fire rifle will not hurt it is patently false in some cases.  The SKS rifle being just one example, one I happen to have first hand knowledge with.

[Unbridled Liberty]

I would counsel everyone to not dismiss out of hand a manufacturers warning to not dry fire a rifle.  Their engineers were undoubtedly involved in the decision to issue the warning, and unless you have definitive proof to the contrary, you are safer in the long run following their recommendations.

The claim that dry firing a center fire rifle will not hurt it is patently false in some cases.  The SKS rifle being just one example, one I happen to have first hand knowledge with.

Quite right.  If you dry fire an SKS on an empty chamber enough, the bolt face around the firing pin hole will start to push out, like a little volcano.  Then eventually you will start to get pierced primers, resulting in gas blowback into the bolt via the firing pin hole.  I always use snap caps when dry firing my SKS.

UL

[Agrivere]

I would counsel everyone to not dismiss out of hand a manufacturers warning to not dry fire a rifle.  Their engineers were undoubtedly involved in the decision to issue the warning, and unless you have definitive proof to the contrary, you are safer in the long run following their recommendations.

The claim that dry firing a center fire rifle will not hurt it is patently false in some cases.  The SKS rifle being just one example, one I happen to have first hand knowledge with.

My experience with firearm manufacturers has apparently been quite different from yours.  I find most of their warnings and recommendations are born from a desire to avoid lawsuits and warranty claims than any sort of well considered engineering analysis.

Most manufacturers will void your warranty if you shoot reloads, and yet many of those same manufacturers sell reloading components.  Should we keep the stock trigger on our rifle because modifying it or replacing it might void the warranty?  I'm sure we could all come up with a very long list of ridiculous recommendations that various manufacturers have on their firearms.

The way I see it, barrels, firing pins, bolts, and such are wear items that need to be replaced from time to time.  Whether they get worn out through dry fire or live fire is irrelevant.  If you're worried you'll ruin your firing pin through dry firing, my answer would be "So?".  When it's ruined replace it.  If you're worried you'll damage the barrel through dry firing, my answer would be "So?".  When it's ruined, replace it.  Worried you'll mess up the bolt?  If you do, replace it.

This logic of course only applies to those firearms where replacement parts are relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain, and that's certainly not true of all firearms.  A quick check on Ebay tells me I could replace the barrel, bolt, and firing pin on a 10/22 for less than the cost of a brick of ammo.   I don't know how many thousands or tens of thousands of dry firing cycles it would take to ruin a rifle (if it's truly even possible), but that's simply a cost of shooting, just like ammo and cleaning supplies and range fees and targets.

Rifles like the SKS (and I'm sure there are others - do your research), which are known to have definite problems when dry firing, or which have parts that cannot easily be replaced, should of course be considered differently.  But like many others, I can't even begin to count the hundreds of thousands of times I've dry fired my rifles and my pistols, and I haven't had the first problem.

Bottom line if you want to improve your marksmanship, you must dry fire.  Find a way to do it that you're comfortable with, and then do it.  A lot.  Use snap caps, take the firing pin out, whatever works for you.  Personally I'd rather replace a $5 firing pin from time to time than take the time to remove it every time I want to dry fire, but do what works for you.

[jmdavis]

A little strip of magnetic business card, cut so that it covers the chamber but does not engage the extractor goes a long way toward protecting you firing pin, chamber and extractor. It seems to me that the biggest problems with 15/22's is the chamber flag being slammed by the bolt and launching the extractor into the grass.

The learning opportunity here is that you should have spares of common use items. It just makes sense, even if you don't have to wait weeks for replacements from Europe.

Dry firing, properly done, is the most important thing a marksman can do to improve his performance. But you have to do it and do it right.

[azmule]

#4 drywall anchors work just fine at pennies apiece.  I buy 'em by the box and hand 'em out to at every shoot.

[jmdavis]

The anchors work too, but they have to be trimmed to keep the extractor from engaging and they cost money. I get the magnetic cards in the mail from my Dr, Dentist etc.


Spend the time to watch this video. When one of the top shooters in the world (working at a range and with access to free guns and ammo) tells you that he dry fired over 100k shots to live firing 500 shots and rose to be ranked 1st in the world, you might want to listen.

By the way Sanderson, is Triple Distinguished (Rifle, Pistol, International).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-4maiu3hg

If you are in a hurry, go to 11:16 and watch from there for information specifically about dryfire.

[Lomshek]

Any AR .22 conversion kit or dedicated .22 upper that uses the Ceiner design (CMMG, TacSol and others) will break the firing pin after a few hundred (at most) dry fires.  I had two (one Ceiner and one CMMG) break at an Appleseed (mine and my brother in law's) on the same day and only had one spare firing pin.

CMMG was kind enough to send me a handful of firing pins at no charge and verified that dry firing will break the FP's.  Since then I've used the plastic dummies.

I'm stocked up right now but will get some from Prescott when mine are worn out.

[Nevada Smith]

I'm willing to bet the S&W M&P 15-22 "no dry fire" rule is to protect the sensitive extractor more than anything in the chamber. <snip>

I don't know about an empty chamber, by I can tell you that if you send a bolt home on a standard Appleseed chamber flag, the probability of a wayward extractor is high.<snip>

Definitely! Here are two links from the same thread about my personal experience:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=8676.msg79574#msg79574
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=8676.msg82331#msg82331

[Texas T]

I think that it is interesting that S&W says not to, but when you go to Ruger they say, very specifically (at http://www.ruger.com/service/faqs.html):

Can I dry fire my Ruger rifle?
Yes. All Ruger rifles can be dry fired without damage, and dry firing can be useful to familiarize the owner with the firearm. However, be sure any firearm is completely unloaded before dry firing!

[Charles McKinley]

I will often loan out my 10/22 for the dry fire exercises to people that don't want to dry fire their rifle.  I don't want to think about the thousands of dry fires it has on it on top of live rounds and it keeps going.