Review of Que's 10/22 Bolt Work

[FiremanBob]

A frequently asked question in all the 10/22 forums is "Who is Que and what does he do to improve my bolt?" I just published a blog post that I hope answers this question: https://1022companion.wordpress.com/2015/02/24/working-over-the-bolt/

[DrRichP]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for this post. I too have had bolt and trigger jobs done on all 9 of my loaner 10/22s (Oh, the $ I've spent). Your blog is excellent in explaining what is/was done and why.

What I have wanted to do for some time is to do a side-by-side comparison. What I mean by that is to shoot a 5 shot group with a stock factory bolt, and then (in the same rifle) shoot a 5 shot group with a Que's modified bolt. Perceived reliability improvements aside, I'd like to know if there are any improvements in accuracy, and if so, to what degree. Particularly with respect to the bolt face squaring and head spacing.

Have you done any such comparisons?

[viperrt1]

Good to know stuff there.

[FiremanBob]

Rich, I haven't done a face-to-face test of the bolts, but once it warms up in a week or so I plan to do that. Right now I'd still need snowshoes to post targets, and it was -2 this morning.

I'm also working on a thorough test and review of the Takedown model.

[Maximum Ordinate]

Que is a good guy.  I've had the opportunity to meet the guy a few times (he lives nearby).

His work is quality and he has a good turn-around time. 

These days, I do a number of these mods myself, but I still go to Que to face the bolts (with a new firing pin) and pin my firing pins.

[PHenry]

all 9 of my loaner 10/22s

God Bless u brutha! There's a man who puts the mission first. I'll have to quit whining about my three and maybe even cleaning rifles I never shoot. 

[grunt soldier]

I have several factory bolts that could use this.  seems like pretty quick turn around and fair pricing.  thanks for posting the info!

[mac66]

While people seem to rave about Que's work,   I've yet to see anyone actually do a quantifiable before and after comparison showing measurable improvement.   

[FiremanBob]

I have a factory bolt in a Takedown that I'm reviewing this month. I plan to test it against my bolt at 50 yds with a scope. I don't know what to expect.

I think part of the question is what we are measuring. I would expect the Qued bolt to have better reliability with standard velocity and quiet ammo.

The one rigorous test of all variables that I have seen on RFC indicated that barrel work and an improved trigger are the main sources of improved accuracy in 10/22s. After those the returns diminish quickly, as long as your barreled action is a good, solid fit in the stock.

[mac66]

I have a factory bolt in a Takedown that I'm reviewing this month. I plan to test it against my bolt at 50 yds with a scope. I don't know what to expect.

I think part of the question is what we are measuring. I would expect the Qued bolt to have better reliability with standard velocity and quiet ammo.

The one rigorous test of all variables that I have seen on RFC indicated that barrel work and an improved trigger are the main sources of improved accuracy in 10/22s. After those the returns diminish quickly, as long as your barreled action is a good, solid fit in the stock.

My point is that without a baseline to compare it to,  how do you know how much improvement if any doing a bolt, barrel or even trigger job does?  I've suggested that unless you test the exact bolt, barrel or trigger before and after having the work done your assumption of improvement is faulty and unprovable. Any suggestion of that on RFC gets one verbally abused and branded a heretic (ask me how how I know  O I've been on RFC a long, long time.).  I am pretty sure no one on RFC has actually done that.

In all fairness I think it would be hard to measure reliability with a bolt. What would you use for a baseline?  Would you have to shoot a 100 or 1000 rounds of every type of ammo to determine a failure rate before and then after?  No one is ever going to do that. Until that happens a bolt job is simply an act of faith that what you are paying for actually does something worthwhile.

By the same token  I've never seen anyone take a stock barrel and shoot it for accuracy, send it off to Que and then test it again. Every single time they've also done a trigger job, and/or bolt job and then claim his barrel job improved accuracy but with no proof.

Hey if this stuff actually worked I'd be first in line, but until someone proves it with tangible, measurable data I remain skeptical.

[Singleton]

I'll have to find a thread I read recently on RFC. I believe it was originally written a couple years ago, but a contributor started with two off-the-shelf 10/22's and proceeded to change one thing at a time after getting a good baseline. I think the test was pretty scientific without needing an enormous budget. Some of the variables were a modified and trued bolt, a set-back barrel and trigger work. If anyone recognizes what I'm referring to and knows how to find the thread, please chime in.

[FiremanBob]

Singleton: that would be this thread: http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535662. It is very interesting.

I did have have Que do both bolt and barrel on two 10/22s, and there was definitely a difference in accuracy afterwards, though not reliability. In fact, with the tighter chamber some ammo won't function well at all - particularly Minimags, which get stuck in the rifling before being fully chambered, fail to fire, and then won't extract. Armscor, which has an unusually blunt bullet, won't feed at all.

[mac66]

I'll have to find a thread I read recently on RFC. I believe it was originally written a couple years ago, but a contributor started with two off-the-shelf 10/22's and proceeded to change one thing at a time after getting a good baseline. I think the test was pretty scientific without needing an enormous budget. Some of the variables were a modified and trued bolt, a set-back barrel and trigger work. If anyone recognizes what I'm referring to and knows how to find the thread, please chime in.

I know the one you are talking about but I think he changed more than one thing at a time in that he already had a trigger job or different trigger parts when he did the bolt or barrel thing.   If it is the same one I'm thinking about his biggest accuracy gain was by taking the barrel band off.

[Agrivere]

I had not seen that thread before, and found it interesting.  I did a very similar test a year or more ago, taking a stock 10/22 and recording groups, changing something, recording more groups, etc.  Never took the time to write it all up (had intended to, but life got in the way), but I reached some of the same conclusions (and some different).

1. As was said in that article, ammo matters.  Not all shooters can shoot tight enough groups to see that it matters, but it does.  Not all rifles will do best with the same ammo of course, so testing your rifle is essential.  It's also not uncommon to find some of the better "cheap" ammo to shoot quite well.  Match ammo is more consistently reliable, but certainly not necessary.  I've shot many good scores with CCI Standard, and I know others have done extremely well with CCI Blazer and Mini Mags.  I've even gotten some "okay" groups with ammo like Remington Thunderbolt, but as a general rule the bulk box ammo is not what you want.

2. Never seen a 10/22 that shot better with a barrel band.  Take it off.  Don't look back.  Leaving it on might not hurt, but it almost certainly won't help.

3. A HIGHLY overlooked component of 10/22 accuracy is the torque on the takedown screw.  Makes a BIG BIG BIG BIG difference.  Get a torque wrench, and set it to 15 inch pounds.  Tighten the takedown screw.  Go shoot.  Fiddle with it if you want - you might find your rifle does better at 12.5 inch pounds or 17.5 inch pounds, but the torque on the takedown screw matters a LOT.

Things that made a difference, but were lower on the "bang for your buck" scale:

1. Triggers.  I love a nice trigger.  It's a nice to have but fairly expensive upgrade.  Certainly won't hurt anything, but you can get used to most any trigger, even the stock Ruger one.  If you want the best VALUE in a 10/22 trigger upgrade, the Volquartsen hammer replacement makes a big difference, and it's not real pricy.

2. Match barrels.  Every 10/22 I have shot will shoot sub-MOA with just a few of the changes mentioned above.  Match barrels are nice, but certainly not needed.  The biggest difference you'll notice with a match barrel is that it will shoot everything better. What I mean by that is less testing is needed to find ammo that shoots well.  While a factory barrel might shoot 3-4 MOA groups with ammo it doesn't like, and sub MOA with ammo it does, a heavy match barrel will cut the big groups down a lot more than the little groups.  At least in my experience.  Especially if you're willing to find ammo your factory rifle shoots well with, the match barrel isn't really going to add that much.

Ironically I haven't ever had a bolt worked on, so I can't really comment on that, though I certainly hear good things about the work Que does.  It makes sense to me that it would improve accuracy, though I'm not sure it will do that enough for most shooters to notice.