Horror Story: M&P 10 and S&W Customer Service

[henschman]

Have you ever heard that its dangerous to buy a firearm with a proprietary design, because you are stuck relying on just one company for replacement parts?  I'm here to tell you that is a very valid concern, particularly with Smith & Wesson products.

I bought an M&P 10 last year, intending to use it for hunting, as well as in the battle rifle/DMR role.  I liked its light weight and longer barrel.  When I first bought it, a member of another forum told me about a friend's rifle, and showed me a picture showing how the stamped text on the skinny part of the barrel apparently imprinted itself somewhat inside the bore as well -- he asked me if mine had any such issues.  Upon inspection, I didn't see anything like the stamp imprint, but I did notice an odd ring around the bore in one place.  It looked to be about the same diameter and height as one of the lands of rifling, but it was simply a ring all around the bore in one spot, about midway between the gas block and the muzzle.  I found it odd, but didn't think anything of it because I had already fired the rifle, and it exhibited very acceptable accuracy and seemed to function OK. 

Fast forward to last year's Pecos Run 'n Gun... a 6 mile run through the desert in West Texas, with shooting stations along the way.  I carried my M&P 10 for the event, along with my M&P .40 pistol.  I was using Lake City 147 grain M80 ball for the event. The rifle shot great -- I shot the best time on several of the rifle stages with it.  Now a little context -- this event occurred in the middle of the largest flood in living memory in that area, and there was some standing water to traverse.  At one point in the course, I crossed some thigh deep water, even falling into a waist-deep hole at one point.  After clearing the water, I retracted the charging handle and shook the rifle muzzle-down, just as a precaution against having any water retained in the bore (I was carrying the rifle slung across my chest in a "low ready" type position, and it did go partly under water during the crossing).  When I got to the next stage, which involved a not-particularly-difficult 200 yard rifle shot, I fired a shot that I called good when it broke, but which did not score a hit.  I also had a failure-to-feed malfunction.  I cleared the malf and fired again... again calling the shot good but getting no hit, and having the same malf.  The RO said that I was hitting way in front of the target, like 20 yards out.  I disregarded this because I thought if it was a miss, it was a very close one and he must be mistaken.  I fired another shot I called good... but this time I saw the mud fly in front of me from the bullet's impact, way lower than I was aiming, and again had the malf.  Now I knew something was wrong, and began inspecting the rifle.  Loose scope mount?  Nope, it's tight.  I then noticed the barrel.  To my horror, it was split down the middle, with the split centered about halfway between the gas block and muzzle, and showing daylight all the way through.  Incredibly, neither myself nor the RO noticed the split when it happened.  Well, needless to say, that event was ruined, and I was unable to complete the rest of the stages.  Other runners saw the rifle and thought that I must have plugged the barrel with mud.  however, I never dropped the rifle or pushed the muzzle into the ground (it would have had to go in pretty far to not only plug up the flash hider but also the muzzle itself)... the worst I did was crawl under some barbed wire with the rifle cradled in front of me, getting a little muddy, and going through the water with it.  Upon reflection, I thought about the strange ring in the rifle's bore, and realized that the barrel had split right at that point.

Now on to dealing with S&W's customer service.  I called and was eventually able to reach a CS rep, who e-mailed me a return shipping label, and I sent the rifle off.  About 2 months later, I received a letter stating that they determined that the split barrel was not due to a defect in workmanship or materials, and that they were declining to fix it under warranty.  They did, however, offer to sell me a replacement rifle for $1100 and change.  I called the rep whose name was on the letter, and asked how much a new barrel for the rifle would cost.  I was shocked when he told me that they do not currently sell barrels separately for the M&P 10.  I asked how much they would charge me to re-barrel the rifle if I paid for the work.  He said he would have to check with management to see if this was even a possibility.  After not hearing from anyone in a few weeks, I called, left messages, and finally heard back from one of their senior engineers who told me that his supervisor told him that they cannot replace just the barrel assembly on a rifle.  I confirmed that they did not sell M&P 10 barrels.   I said, somewhat incredulously, "so you won't warranty it, you won't fix it, and you won't sell me the parts to fix it myself?  I basically have an $1100 paperweight?"  He seemed somewhat embarrassed to have to give me this news.  He said that he had no control over what management's policies were, and that if it were up to him, he would replace the barrel for a small fee.  He said he was going to return the rifle to me. 

So that's my situation.  I have a broken rifle with well over $1000 tied up in it, with no way to either have it fixed, or to fix it myself.  I suppose I put myself in that situation, by buying a proprietary design from a company that doesn't stand behind their products.  Well, good job Smith & Wesson.  You fooled me once.  One thing is for sure though... I am not going to make that mistake again.  Oh, and I'm going to be carrying a Glock from now on.

[jmdavis]

I wonder if that barrel was "ringed" from a problem during test firing and they sent it out anyway?

S&W had been making strides at improved Customer Service, but after this story and the stories of shooters who have bought new S&W Model 41's that were horrible, one has to wonder.

[FiremanBob]

One of many S&W CS horror stories I have heard. I almost bought a semi-auto Thompson but walked away after I learned that S&W had bought the company and the only tech support was to send it in to them.

[fepowered]

--Edit----

[DEH]

Hindsight is 20/20 so don't beat yourself up over it I suspect we have all done something similar.  Sorry to hear about your 1100$ paperweight.  I will say that when I think about purchasing a weapon that one thing that goes through my head is "Does this use proprietary parts and is there something out there like it that doesn't?"

Also, I would recommend that ANY time you see something on a gun that just doesn't look right that you need to contact the company and find out from them what they want you to do.  Preferably via email so you have a paper trail.

Ring around the bore indicates that it might have been fired with water, oil, bullet or another obstruction in the barrel and is otherwise called a bulged barrel.

Just as a brainstorming thought:  Have you contacted any gunsmiths to see if they have a solution?  I also don't know enough about the MP10 but would another company's upper fit on it?

[Mango]

Sorry to hear about your bad customer service experience.  If S&W believed the the barrel failed due to having an obstruction or water, I can see them denying warranty coverage. 

Could you install an aftermarket barrel, like those at Midwayusa.com?  Maybe even put on a longer barrel?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/660397/dpms-sass-barrel-lr-308-308-winchester-bull-contour-1-in-10-twist-18-fluted-stainless-steel-black-teflon?cm_vc=subv660397

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/634615/dpms-sst-barrel-lr-308-308-winchester-bull-contour-1-in-10-twist-24-stainless-steel?cm_vc=subv634615

[henschman]

No, as I said, I cannot install an aftermarket barrel because S&W is the only one who makes barrels for this rifle.  Their barrel extension and bolt are proprietary.  Anyway that barrel is the only reason I bought the rifle... it is the closest thing to a FAL or M-14 barrel I could find in a .308 AR.  Nobody else makes anything similar.  If I just wanted another heavy stainless barreled rifle, I wouldn't have bought such a proprietary design to begin with.

The "ring" I describe in the barrel didn't appear to be a bulge... it was the opposite.  Like a tight spot, or a spot where a ridge encircled the entire bore.

[viperrt1]

That horrible why would they not be willing to put another barrel on it, if your willing to pay the price. That just bad business there. The story your telling makes me think there not building there rifles but farming them out, thus Its cheaper to lose a customer here and there then to reissue or fix the problem. 

A qualified custom shop should be able to make you a barrel for that rifle regardless of design. but then again by the time they do that it may be cheaper to buy another rifle. being Custom barrels can run up to $500 plus install and labor

[henschman]

One thing is for sure -- I won't be buying another one of those POS.

[Big John]

If you used a credit card, see if you can challenge it. Else, there is small claims court. Part it out on gunbroker for some return on investment. Write a certified letter naming and shaming everyone directed to the company president and send it certified mail. Include when you expect a response by. If you don't get a response, or don't get the one you want, send another letter, certified mail, to the same guy explaining how you are now morally obligated to warn your fellow gun owners about their shoddy service and bad manufacturing, then proceed to trash them on every forum known to man, write the NRA and other gun rags, and do that until they give in.

[DEH]

FWIW:  I am glad you shared with us.

[Santander]

As I get older I have more of a need for scoping my rifle.  The AR-10 (type) of platform is ideal for this.
I looked at many different rifles and it came down to a choice between S&W MP-10 and Ruger's SR-762.  I went with the Ruger SR-762.
As it turned out, I got one of the lemons which it would not drive most normal ammo (different mil-surp ball, Lake City, Federal GM) on any setting.
I added an aftermarket trigger and it ran better (due to lighter hammer reset and different geometry) on the most open gas setting but still having problems loading from some magazines (not enough return energy for the bolt carrier).  So... undergassed and under spring'ed on the BC return.
I sent it back to Ruger and they called me back indicating that they would need to send me a new rifle.
I just got the new rifle last week.  I am back in business.  This is the first time I have ever used any firearms manufacturer's customer service.  While I hate that I had to use it at all, Ruger did it right and they sent more mags, another case, etc.

I'm sorry that you are having problems with the MP-10.  That is a very nice looking lightweight rifle and functionally it's supposed to be a tack-driver.
It's disappointing that S&W is neither making it right nor working with you to replace the barrel.  I guess their stock price went up by 14% today based on sales alone, not customer-sat & reputation.

--Tony

[Charles McKinley]

Thanks for sharing.  I was going to buy this rifle due to the ambidexterus controls. 

The stock price is up as they are in contention for the new military pistol contract according to the Motley Fool.

[Shooter30-06]

Count me as another who has had difficulty with the Smith & Wesson Customer service.  the night sights on my wife's M&P stopped all illumination after only two years.  When it was returned to S&W for expected replacement I was told that their night sights were not expected to work like tritium sights like Trijicon.  When I pointed out that night sights were pretty worthless if you cannot see them at night the customer service rep was not amused.  Buyer Beware.