Reloading for the .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO

[sgtrock]

Dear Sir
  I reload for .308, in my M1A and 30-06 in my M1 as well, The A2495 will work just fine in both, the pressure curve is right for these rifles, I also use my favorite IMR4895, which these rifles were designed around in the begining,, remember to work your load up to your rifle, keep it under max for these rifles, they don't like to be over powered, plus parts are getting hard to find and very expensive, but I am sure you know that.  Hope this helps,  your zero will change, mine changed by 3 mins. at 300yds at 5 o'clock in my M1 Garand, no big deal there just shoot in lots after zeroing for new load, 
ppss, if it's corrosive, I pull'em period, they never get within a mile of my gas operated rifles, I shoot leagues all year with mine, don't have time to clean that harshly, plus it will rust out your equipment in a heart beat             sgtrock

[oladcock]

Got a question for you guys. Dug through all the posts and only a couple mention 180gr bullets. I've got a bunch of 180 hot cores and load data out of the Speer manual. Has anyone tried this combo out of the LR-10 platform?...O.L.

[George63]

my lr 308 had a stock DPMS 10 twist barrel and did ok with 175 gr, 180 would probably be at the edge for a 10 twist in a semi auto

[nmmi9100]

OL:

If it's 1:10, those 180s will stabilize fine.  My only concern is that 180 is heavy for caliber, especially in a gas gun.  I'd be a little cautious how I loaded them...DI guns are not as port-pressure sensitive as a Garand or M1A but there still is a concern.  I've loaded a fair bit for an AR-10 20" but I never loaded anything heavier than 168s.  When it comes to my rifles...and I've got several 308s...175s and 180s are reserved for bolt guns.

I use use Varget for powder with 308 and 30-06.  My go-to bolt gun load for 308 is 175 grain Nosler Competitions BTHPs in Lapua Brass, WLR primers, and 42.5 gr of Varget.  But to me, that load is too hot for use in a semi-auto.  2600 fps in a 24" Remington 5R, 1:11.25" twist.

-David
Edgewood, NM

[Old Dog]

My M1A had the best groups ever with 180 grain Sierra matchkings and it has a one turn in 11" barrel.  1 turn in 10" is supposed to be even better for the heavier bullets.

[PHenry]

What is this I am hearing about "small base dies" being required for M1A? I was recently told that standard Dillon (or others) will not cycle properly in M1A??? I find hard to imagine as I have run a lot of factory reloads thru one and never notices a problem.

It is even mentioned in this publication:

[oladcock]

Thanks guys, since it's my wifes gun, I'll try it! Just kidding honey!    Got solid data in the Speer manual, the only difference will be the brass. And I'll keep them on the light side, wasn't too concerned on the gas system but with increased recoil might be an issue. 165gr Rem Accu-Tips in front of 45grs of Varget are tack drivers out of it. I'll post how it goes....O.L.

[George63]

small base dies may be a good idea for the first resizing if you buy brass that may have been from a MG, after that only use SB dies if needed for reliable function as they will shorten the life of the brass

[Old Dog]

Anyone tired of me saying, "every rifle is different."

My M1A is over 30 years old, came from the factory with a match barrel (1 turn in 11 inches with 6 lands/grooves - so it ain't GI, oh yeah, its stamped NM, Geneseo, IL on the bottom of the barrel) and the Pacific (Hornady) .308 dies I bought for it back then have resized brass just fine.  Any brass, all brass, all the time.

For that matter, if rifle chambers can be cut differently from one barrel to the next then I figure dies could be different as well.

Its quite possible another rifle with a match chamber/barrel could not use reloads from standard dies and its quite possible a standard/issue barrel might require small base dies.

Try it and see.  Small base dies, if you don't need them, will "work" the brass more and possibly shorten life (number of times you can reload it.)

[Son of Martha]

Or, of course if you have multiple semi-auto rifles in the caliber.  That way no worries about functioning.

Heard lots about SB dies shortening life of brass, never observed it--I think it's one of those "theoretical" things, like not tumbling loaded rounds...I am on the sixth reload of mixed 7.62x51 and .308 brass with no problems noted. most done with SB dies.

But until I started using SB dies I had occasional FTF/FTL.  Multiple rifles and range pick up will do that.

SoM

[sparks1]

Not had the problem with 7.62x51 yet...however with 5.56x45 the FTF has happened. Soooo, I use SB dies. Corrected that FTF. Also use a case gauge to double check sized brass before loading. Learned the hard way with 300 rds of loaded ammo that failed to load/failed to fire at a shoot. Just did not bump back the shoulder that needed few thousanths and the bolt would not close. Also a bugger to try to extract those rds too.

So an extra step now..but it saves the hassle of no ammo to shoot at a match.

[oladcock]

"however with 5.56x45 the FTF has happened. Soooo, I use SB dies. Corrected that FTF. Also use a case gauge to double check sized brass before loading."

I had the same happen but it was only a couple rounds out of several hundred .223. Got the case gauge and check them after loading since bullet seating and crimping can screw up a shoulder. I've only found a couple out of thousands of rounds that wouldn't set down flush in the case gauge, but even they chambered and fired. All with a normal die, not a SB. I am using a SB for the .308 and so far, so good. Hope to get out and shoot the 180 grainers tomorrow....O.L.

[oladcock]

OK...A little data on 180gr Speer Hot-Cor bullets from a DPMS LR-10, 16" lite barrel, all shots hand held from a bench.

The Speer manual lists 40-44gr Varget with this bullet. CCI LR primers, 2.80" OAL. The only the brass we used differs from the book, used R-P. Shot 5 each at 40grs, 41, 42, and 43grs....41 and 42grs shot the best groups with the 41 slightly better at a little over 1" throwing out the first cold barrel shots. No high pressure indicatons. Subjectively recoil about the same as 165gr. So, I see no reason a person can't shoot 180's out of these guns.....O.L.

[Dangerous Oldman]

OK, so I finally got some compatible powder, some large rifle primers, and some 168 gr. HPBT bullets and dusted off the .308 dies.  Loaded up some freedom pills and head to the range.  Understand that I used once-fired brass from the same rifle (SIG 716 chambered in 7.62X51) but the brass was a mix of Military 7.62 and Civilian .308, mostly Federal .308.  All brass was de-primed, wet rotary polished, annealed, full length resized, vibratory polished, hand primed with CCI "Military" primers, and finally loaded with between 40.6 and 41.6 gr. of IMR4064 in .1 gr increments in groups of five.

Yesterday I headed to the range to ladder test my loads.  I started the session with some Federal Fusion 168 gr. factory ammo to confirm zero on the scope.  Five rounds later and I had re-established the zero on the scope.  KI load up the 40.6 grain hand loads, pick a target, and bang, all goes as planned but the next round doesn't feed and I have to hand-cycle the bolt.  No problem, I notice the gas piston is set to single shot.  I adjusted the piston, cycled the gun, and bang, all is well but the third round doesn't feed right? 

At that point I thought I had it under-gassed and put the suppressor on.  Cycled the bolt again, and... nothing. Not even a click.  I pushed on the bolt seat, squeezed the trigger again and this time "Click".  Then I tried to cycle the bolt and find the cartridge is jammed in the chamber!  I had to bang the butt stock on the table the jar it loose!  So starting with the bolt locked back, I put the magazine back in, closed the bolt, and... same thing. The bolt didn't seem to want go into battery and the cartridge is stuck in the chamber.  I had to use the same butt-stock on the table top method to get it out. 

Then I loaded up 5 more of the Federal Fusion rounds and try them.  Yep the gun is still fine.  All five rounds work just like they are supposed to.  And the brass is all in decent shape.  I got all the gear back to the bench and did some measuring on a factory round and then on three of the reloaded rounds.  I couldn't find anything drastically oversized on the reloaded ammo but it still won't chamber fully.

Where do I go from here?  I will scrub the chamber next to make sure it is not all gummed up for some reason, but I am pretty sure it will be good as is.  Any suggestions on next steps?  I can provide the case measurements but other than that...

[eaglescouter]

Run your recently loaded rounds into a case gauge to determine if you set the shoulder back correctly in the sizing operation.
It is possible to fail to fully resize the used brass, resulting in a load that will not fully chamber.
You can also end up with brass that chambers too deep and the firing pin can not adequately reach the primer.

[Tennessee Beast]

 

Check to see if the dies are adjusted correctly. While unlikely, it COULD also be an out of spec die.  You can compare your ammo with the proper measuring devices (calipers and micrometer) with the standard.

[Lomshek]

OK, so I finally got some compatible powder, some large rifle primers, and some 168 gr. HPBT bullets and dusted off the .308 dies.  Loaded up some freedom pills and head to the range.  Understand that I used once-fired brass from the same rifle (SIG 716 chambered in 7.62X51) but the brass was a mix of Military 7.62 and Civilian .308, mostly Federal .308.  All brass was de-primed, wet rotary polished, annealed, full length resized, vibratory polished, hand primed with CCI "Military" primers, and finally loaded with between 40.6 and 41.6 gr. of IMR4064 in .1 gr increments in groups of five.

Yesterday I headed to the range to ladder test my loads.  I started the session with some Federal Fusion 168 gr. factory ammo to confirm zero on the scope.  Five rounds later and I had re-established the zero on the scope.  KI load up the 40.6 grain hand loads, pick a target, and bang, all goes as planned but the next round doesn't feed and I have to hand-cycle the bolt.  No problem, I notice the gas piston is set to single shot.  I adjusted the piston, cycled the gun, and bang, all is well but the third round doesn't feed right? 

At that point I thought I had it under-gassed and put the suppressor on.  Cycled the bolt again, and... nothing. Not even a click.  I pushed on the bolt seat, squeezed the trigger again and this time "Click".  Then I tried to cycle the bolt and find the cartridge is jammed in the chamber!  I had to bang the butt stock on the table the jar it loose!  So starting with the bolt locked back, I put the magazine back in, closed the bolt, and... same thing. The bolt didn't seem to want go into battery and the cartridge is stuck in the chamber.  I had to use the same butt-stock on the table top method to get it out. 

Then I loaded up 5 more of the Federal Fusion rounds and try them.  Yep the gun is still fine.  All five rounds work just like they are supposed to.  And the brass is all in decent shape.  I got all the gear back to the bench and did some measuring on a factory round and then on three of the reloaded rounds.  I couldn't find anything drastically oversized on the reloaded ammo but it still won't chamber fully.

Where do I go from here?  I will scrub the chamber next to make sure it is not all gummed up for some reason, but I am pretty sure it will be good as is.  Any suggestions on next steps?  I can provide the case measurements but other than that...

You should get a Hornady or Sinclair headspace comparator.  It will allow you to perfectly measure your fired case headspace dimension so you can make sure you're properly sizing the cases.  Insufficient resizing is probably the most common cause of bolts failing to close into battery or requiring excessive effort to extract.

A bullet seated way too long and jamming into the rifling could do it and requires a different comparator to measure.

A neck that's way too long and hitting the throat could do it too and would probably be the most unsafe possibility.  They make a tool for measuring that too.

You didn't mention it and if you're not trimming cases after sizing your necks could be too long.

[Lomshek]

Just realized who this was!

If you're coming to the Half Day 'seeds at Bone Creek in a couple weeks and want to bring the rifle, cases (factory unfired, factory fired, reloaded fired and reloaded non fired) I have all the comparator tools and we can figure out where the problem is.