Hello All,
I finally committed to an Appleseed (New Philadelphia in April) and joined the forum, and I am itching to get out there and shoot. In the interim, I figured an intro might be in order. I grew up and currently live in the suburbs east of Cleveland. I've been involved in shooting my whole life and spent 7 years in the Army. Since leaving the Army, I have missed the shooting and qualifications, so learning about Appleseed made my day.
I've been building up to attending an Appleseed since I first learned about it in late fall of 2016. I went out and bought a rifle (Ruger American Rimfire) a set of TechSites, and a GI web sling. I also ordered some of the targets from Appleseed. I have heard that .22s tend to be particular about ammo, so I ordered an assortment of target ammo, threw everything in the car, and headed out to the range for sighting in and testing:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16473735_1380359255340469_3316163111479009930_n.jpg?oh=4f04fb3fc4d756568c5e7ade1abcbc3f&oe=59388C43)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16640709_1380359252007136_7110876317579975923_n.jpg?oh=8228bbfab2e1a4e46c72d1411d700e89&oe=593DED59)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16508603_1380359178673810_1468214894956201493_n.jpg?oh=d2b0a608a829a4518739f9f9d125611a&oe=5909813F)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16473925_1380359175340477_330920609494863006_n.jpg?oh=7f95e77117b430f7c2fe8baeae480f4e&oe=59016758)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16640641_1380359172007144_3885133849584573678_n.jpg?oh=a28e41f3235f58e4cacf8d74c087d7d6&oe=58FFEEDF)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16640616_1380359168673811_4010586462674352891_n.jpg?oh=353abcaf7d396845c7f9680aa6328a58&oe=5949944A)
Ultimately, I was not very happy with the results. I was really struggling with the sights, much more so than I recall from my experience in the Army with my M16A1 and M16A2. The groups were all fired from a bench rest with bags, and yet they are extremely inconsistent, and the inconsistency goes beyond merely the size: the point of aim is not terribly consistent either. This leads me to believe I am simply not very good with iron sights anymore, and I know for a fact that my eyesight is not what it once was. Anyway, nothing was horrible, so I thought I could probably still do okay at Appleseed. I went ahead and did some positional practice with some cheaper Thunderbolt ammo:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16602958_1380359265340468_6272442271745704598_n.jpg?oh=6d7b0e54455c11bd8c5d27ce932263de&oe=590E6300)
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None of these strings were timed, just getting an idea of what I could do with the rifle. I left the range a little sad at my eyesight limitations, but mostly happy that I could even see the targets and hit them.
Then I went to the local indoor range. This is a newer facility and really quite nice, probably the best indoor range I've been to. Still, the lighting indoors is not the same as outside. I found that I could barely find the rear peep hole to look through and had a very frustrating session.
Thus, I broke down and bought an inexpensive scope (Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 4-12x40mm with adjustable objective). I've done some preliminary shooting at the indoor range and, thus far, am extremely pleased with my decision to go with a scope. I am hoping to gather some more ammo and get to the outdoor range prior to April so that I can get it sighted in from a bench and do some more ammo testing. If I do, I will get some more pics and post the results. If not, I look forward to meeting everyone in April and doing some shooting.
St8space
Forgive me if this is a silly question, but do you shoot with your dominant eye? I ran into the same (eyesight) issue a few years ago and decided to solve it by switching sides to my dominant eye. Went to a Rifleman's Boot Camp to learn to shoot lefty, and it gave me a whole new outlook on things. ::)
That said, I still usually use a scope, especially for Known Distance.
Not a silly question at all. I do shoot with my dominant eye. I was lucky to wind up right eye dominant (I write lefty), so I don't have to deal with brass flying across my face lol. My fiancee, on the other hand is left eye dominant. I was teaching her how to shoot my AR (back when I had one) and she was trying to look through the scope with her left eye while holding it right handed...that doesn't really work so well lol.
My input would be don't sweat the equipment and ammo so much.
Appleseed is about practical field shooting -- 4MOA. From your targets -- irons or scope -- you're well on your way. We want you to be able to pickup a "rack grade" rifle, with surplus/bulk ammo and shoot 4 MOA. It's mostly about technique and not so much about equipment.
My advice? Use a scope for the first Appleseed. You've already got the GI sling. The Ruger American is a fine little rifle...the bolt action will give you a little bit bigger challenge for the timed portions but roll with it...semi auto if you can. Buy a brick (or 3) of CCI Blazer or Federal bulk pack.
If you get a patch with that, come back and shoot it with irons.
Thanks for the advice SteelThunder. I figure, if I manage a patch with the scope, the irons will simply be the next challenge.
A couple of things from my perspective:
1. Don't overthink this too much.
2. Go to an Appleseed.
3. Other than a rifle, GI web sling, mags and ammo I wouldn't invest in any addt'l equipment until after your first AS. It's easy to turn this into an equipment race and easy to purchase the wrong equipment. Wait and see what you need. You will learn plenty at your first shoot.
4. Your problem with the sights MAY be related to the shorter sight radius of the Ruger compared to the A1 and A2. Closer sights are harder to focus on than the ones that are farther out. If you are older you may have problems focusing on closer objects anyway. While the shorter sight radius does not affect the mechanical accuracy of the rifle (usually), it may affect the practical accuracy when the hardware interfaces with the software (you).
I'll echo everyone else's comment on equipment and ammo: match ammo is overkill for Appleseed's standard. Buy ammo that doesn't malfunction and/or gunk up your chamber too bad, and you'll be fine.
In addition to DEH's sight radius comment, do make sure you're focusing on the front sight, not switching back and forth between front/rear/target. My eyes are too old to get away with that.
The comment about point of aim not being consistent and having trouble finding the peep sight makes me wonder if your head position is correct. Try getting your eye closer to the rear sight (turkey neck) and establish a good cheek weld: this ensures correct sight alignment, which we teach as the first step of firing a shot.
Went to the indoor range today and got in a little practice from standing. Unfortunately, the outdoor range I typically go to (ODNR at Grand River) is closed in January and February, so the rifle still hasn't been sighted in properly from a bench, but it's good enough to hit the 100 yard targets. And, quite frankly, I doubt I'd see much of a difference from standing lol.
Anyway, all of the shooting was done with a loop sling (first time using one for me), and I learned a few things. First, when I go to run the bolt, the butt pops out of the pocket and onto my deltoid. This is truly annoying, and doesn't seem to occur when I use the hasty sling. Second, where the targets are hanging in the indoor range, I can slide my support hand all the way back under the magazine, and I still don't get a good natural point of aim on the top, 100 yard target. Obviously, side-to-side is not an issue.
Still, I managed to hit the 100 yarders with reasonable consistency. Hopefully, the instructors at Appleseed will help me to overcome some of my shortcomings and shrink the groups down into the 5 ring. All-in-all, it was a good session. I really enjoy this rifle. The bolt is plenty smooth and, being a .22, the throw is short and fast. The trigger on this gun is about as good as any I have ever had. It's infinitely nicer than a stock AR trigger lol. It also just feels good in my hands, and I suspect the longer, 22 inch barrel has a lot to do with that. I also suspect it will be close to 1 MOA accurate once I get a chance to shoot it from the bench with the scope.
So, here are my results. I did initially attempt to shoot an entire redcoat target from standing, and then got realistic and stuck with the 100 yard targets:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16708234_1384717278238000_6541513128051568456_n.jpg?oh=ea31df6078ab7056ab1a4f4b5eafbec0&oe=593C77AF)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16684392_1384717268238001_477660066632637936_n.jpg?oh=059f96c4da47068f8b83d14df9722e5c&oe=593977EC)
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It's funny how much military shooting changes through the years. When I was in, we only shot from prone (supported and unsupported) and foxholes (also supported and unsupported). Also, the further targets were always the taller, full-size silhouettes and they only went out to 300 meters. So, this Appleseed shooting from three positions and out to 400 is going to be a pleasant challenge and a good learning experience.
Hope everyone's having a great weekend,
St8space
Your shooting looks good to me. You are mostly in the black, and mostly in the black usually means you are in the neighborhood. Check the consistency of your cheek weld is good advice. Watch your breathing. Exhale and squeeeeze at your respiratory pause. Focus on your front sight, and come out to an Appleseed. Give the coaches a chance to watch you and offer instruction. You can do this old school, bolt action and iron sights. BTW: 40 grains and subsonic (around a thousand fps) is a good starting point. Send, 'Em.
Thanks for the encouraging words and advice Rev.357.
New Guy,
I will be your Shoot Boss in April at New Philly. Your dedication in preparing is impressive. Can't wait to meet you and work with you on your patch. Scope or open sights, doesn't really matter. I suspect after our Sat instructions on the fundamentals, I suspect you will do just fine.
Now, you are bringing your wife with you right?😃
Would love to have her join us at the event.
See you in April.
Corvette
Not sure at this point, still working on getting her out shooting. She's shot my pistols and AR, but has never really been into it. Maybe some quality instruction would help with that. She is very intimidated by guns. I will likely try to get her or my son out with me. Looking into picking up a 795 or a 10/22 when tax returns come in. Just gotta make a decision before the shoot sells out lol. Eventually, I'd like to get my daughter involved as well, but I think all four of us at once would be a stretch right now.
My 2 cents, Get the Tickets to Your shoot now, If You have to barrow a loaner rifle or 2.
As for ammo to me it looks like Your rifle likes the federal Gold Metal Match. If You can afford it and You may need upwards of 300 to 500 rounds of it for an Appleseed event.
the Thunderbolt looks good also. and try also Federal Automatch. yes it will work in Your bolt action.
Please Enjoy Your event.
TomM1Thumb
Well, if the wife, son or daughter wish to join us, let me know. We can always arrange for loaner rifles for them. That way, if its not their cup of tea, you have not invested much beyond ammo. We do it all the time. I have four or five rifles that students use regularly. I never get to shoot them, I just get to clean them at the end of the weekend. ;D
Just let me know when you sign up, what you might need in terms of equipment.
Corvette
Quote from: St8space on February 12, 2017, 04:34:29 PM
Not sure at this point, still working on getting her out shooting. She's shot my pistols and AR, but has never really been into it. Maybe some quality instruction would help with that. She is very intimidated by guns. I will likely try to get her or my son out with me. Looking into picking up a 795 or a 10/22 when tax returns come in. Just gotta make a decision before the shoot sells out lol. Eventually, I'd like to get my daughter involved as well, but I think all four of us at once would be a stretch right now.
Welcome to Appleseed and the forum.
I have to use a scope now but I still might try irons some time just to torture myself.
When I read about your issue the first thing that came to mind is cheek weld, I know a couple guys have already said it.
Until I got my scope mounted far enough forward I could not reproduce my position because I was turtle necking. I had to find a good stock that fit me for LOP and position my head high enough to see through the scope. Then it was just get the fundamentals down and practice, practice.
I hope to meet you sometime at an event. It is nice to hear of your persistence. It will pay off.
Overenthusiastic Newguy,
I have been enjoying your story. I was Overenthusiastic Newguy last August when I heard about the Appleseed Program. I immediately registered for a weekend last October in Marion. To say I couldn't wait would have been a massive understatement. So, I know what's going through your mind. I would not try to give you any shooting advise. The Appleseed Instructors are more than capable of that. But, I may be able to offer some help from the newguy point of view.
1. The most important thing that you can bring is a TEACHABLE ATTITUDE. They will cover every aspect of firing the shot. You need to
be listening.
2. Make sure you are thoroughly familiar with your rifle. You need to know how to operate it and be smooth when changing mags.
3. They will tell you that what they tell you works. It does! See number1.
4. Let the weekend happen. You will have a great time. The shooting, the history, it's all good.
5. Someone might say that it's like drinking from a fire hose. For me it was more like eating an elephant, but we did it one bite at a time!
They will cover something then you will work on it. So, it was a graduated learning process.
Before the weekend I fired about 1000 rounds to get ready for the weekend. I was never able to complete an AQT in the allotted time. During the weekend I qualified on the second, timed AQT on Sunday morning. I think I'm probably much older than you and my old eyes could not see through my glasses and peep sight in the prone position. Glasses too low, sight too high. So, I went to a scope that I focused without my glasses. Then I used clear safety glasses. My son qualified with the peep sights.
I hope this helps. You will have a good time.
PaRifle1777
Thanks for the advice PaRifle1777; it's nice to hear from another newer Appleseed guy. To your point on equipment familarity, I do believe magazine changes are indeed going to be a challenge. My rifle uses the same magazines as the 10/22, but mine is particularly picky about how I insert the mag, and, if I don't get it right, it just won't go. Many years ago (mid 90s) I owned a 10/22, and while I never had to do changes against the clock, I seem to recall it being more forgiving. It could just be a matter of break in, who knows? I have been practicing though, so hopefully it won't be a major issue.
My eyes definitely have been giving me problems though, so I have an eye appointment Friday. I have always required glasses for distance correction, but of late I am having to hold menus and such at arms length to read them, and that is recent (within the last year or so). So I am going to stick with a scope for this first one and see how that goes.
Have a great day and happy shooting,
St8space
I pulled this out of the archive...it is the best review of why <heresyalert> GROUP SIZE DOESN'T MATTER, or more specifically why it doesn't make sense to obsess, and spend massive amounts of time/money, over equipment and ammo. Of course this is within reason...a rifle and ammo that is reasonably accurate is what we need. Once we get over that, practical accuracy -- the software side -- is WAY more dependent on shooter technique. I also concede that spending lots of time and money on rifle/ammo accuracy is addictive and fun.
Of course this is all because of statistics and normal distributions. The linked article uses Monte Carlo simulations showing the effects of a hypothetical rifle/ammo combo. Looking at a 10" target at 700 yards (~1.5 MOA target), no wind, no "shooter factor", a 1 MOA rifle/ammo combo gets you a 69.7% hit probability. Drop that to 0.5 MOA capability and your hit probability goes up to 78%. Drop to 0.3 MOA and probability only goes up to 80% and at 0.1 MOA you're getting tiny gains to 80.7%. Net-net, good enough is good enough. It's all about technique.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/ (http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/)
You're doing just fine. Your focus on building a solid position, thinking through the 6 steps to firing a shot and learning/practicing/not "cheating" on NPOA will be the best investments you can make.
St8Space,
I guess I didn't think about the magazine in your rifle being the same as in the 10/22. I found this gadget called a "Companion Bumper" made by Tandemkross. (Spelling may be incorrect). The Companion Bumper attaches to the bottom of the Ruger magazine and gives a nice little lip on each side of the mag to grip it. I used it on the mag loaded with 2 rounds in the second and third stages of the AQT. In addition to the lip to grab it adds a little weight that helps the mag want to fall out. I know a lot of guys that say you need different parts on the 10/22 to make them better but at least for me the stock rifle worked fine. I found CCI Standard velocity more than adequate for this type of shooting. You can find them for $35.00 - $40.00 for 500 rounds.
Good luck.
PaRifle1777
Quote from: PaRifle1777 on February 16, 2017, 10:28:17 AM
St8Space,
I know a lot of guys that say you need different parts on the 10/22 to make them better but at least for me the stock rifle worked fine. I found CCI Standard velocity more than adequate for this type of shooting. You can find them for $35.00 - $40.00 for 500 rounds.
Good luck.
PaRifle1777
Mostly agree. The only items that I added to my Ruger 10/22 rifle when I shot my first Rifleman score was a set of Tech Sights, a USGI sling and QD sling swivels. The stock sights on a 10/22 are terrible!
I found out early on that the slower 40 grain ammo to be more consistent. Leave the HV at home and just bring a standard velocity ammo.
You did not say if you are having trouble inserting or removing the magazine.
For my 10/22 clone I have to insert the magazine with the front edge slightly tilted up in the front. I don't really know why, I just found that it is more reliable that way.
My magazines drop when I release them. I know that with some 10/22s the magazines are tight and will not drop free. I have read that a little, meaning with a high grit paper, one can try to figure out where they are hanging up and remove a tiny bit of material from the mag or stock.
You might also pose the question to Bob the fireman (I think that is his name) on the forums.
And I totally understand about the eyes.
Thanks for the link SteelThunder, that was an interesting read. I am a nerdy engineering type, so the math is right up my alley.
Quotea 1 MOA rifle/ammo combo gets you a 69.7% hit probability. Drop that to 0.5 MOA capability and your hit probability goes up to 78%.
So, as long as I get to 0.5 moa (approximately 1/8th inch groups at 25 yards), I should be good O0 Just kidding. Actually, I'd be ecstatic with 1 moa, and okay with 1 to 2. I am definitely not pleased with the 2 to 4 that I got with the peep sights. It may be sufficient for rifleman, but it's pretty disappointing regardless.
QuoteI also concede that spending lots of time and money on rifle/ammo accuracy is addictive and fun.
This is it really. I do understand that I could achieve rifleman with "rack grade" accuracy, but where's the fun in that? I actually do not have a ton of dough to spend, so I won't be souping up a 10/22 anytime soon, but it DOES sound like fun :) I grew up reading Guns and Ammo and I always wanted to grow up to be Ross Seyfried lol. So, I will likely continue testing rifles and ammo from a bench to see what they do. But don't be fooled, that's not all I am doing. I just love shooting, so I am practicing my fundamentals and positions, both at the range as well as dry firing at home.
QuoteI found this gadget called a "Companion Bumper" made by Tandemkross.
Thanks for this PaRifle1777, I found their website and these look like some pretty handy additions, so they have been added to my list of nice to have items for future purchase.
QuoteI found CCI Standard velocity more than adequate for this type of shooting.
Standard velocity seems to be the consensus, so I will likely stick with that. I can't recall who recommended them, but I picked up a box of Federal Auto Match to try out. They were 26 bucks for 300 rounds and that's pretty reasonable. Also, oddly enough, the Thunderbolts seem to do okay and they are even cheaper. I am not sure what the ballistics are for these, but I will run some groups with them to get an "official" idea of how they perform.
QuoteFor my 10/22 clone I have to insert the magazine with the front edge slightly tilted up in the front. I don't really know why, I just found that it is more reliable that way.
Hello goodoldfriend, this is exactly what I have going on. And the angle is fairly specific; too flat or too canted, and it just won't go. I don't think it will be a showstopper, just something I need to get used to so I can achieve smooth reloads.
QuoteMy magazines drop when I release them. I know that with some 10/22s the magazines are tight and will not drop free.
Mine do not drop free, so I may do a little tinkering with this. I've been running the bolt back after my last shot and popping a finger through the opening to make the magazine fall out, but this is kinda slow.
So I got my son registered for New Philadelphia in April this morning, and he's excited to get out there with me.
I went out and picked up a second rifle. Believe me, I agonized over this one. It's like nobody makes an inexpensive rifle that has everything that I wanted, so I had to make some major compromises:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16806861_1394570343919360_8047869779449473186_n.jpg?oh=0b5989fe48512fcf49b68959f7a3dd58&oe=58FF3BBB)
I realize that some people have complained about this rifle, so we'll see, I took a pretty big risk on it I guess. It doesn't have sling studs, but I can install those with no problem (I already bought them).
I like that it came with a scope, even if it is a cheap one. It looks reasonably clear, but it doesn't have an adjustable objective, so I'll have to see how it does at the range. I don't much care for dovetail mounting, but, again, I'll have to see. I do know that whoever mounted it at the factory hasn't much of a clue, so I'll be pulling it off and putting it back on properly. It looks like I should be able to move it forward quite a bit as well. Ultimately, if the dovetail rings give me problems, it appears as though the receiver is drilled and tapped for Weaver or Picatinny.
I don't find an issue with the magazines (some people complain that they are difficult to load) and I really like the way they go in and out of the gun (very smooth and positive). Again, we'll have to see how they feed at the range.
A sharp eye will note the lack of irons. So this won't ever be a peep rifle, unless I have a gunsmith drill the barrel for a front sight post. I am okay with that for now. If the wife and kids get a hankering for the challenge of irons, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
For now, it feels like a solid rifle and it didn't break the bank (less than a 10/22 without a scope). I think the family will have plenty of fun with this rifle.
I have a Remington 597. I think it was my first rifle. It was not long until I replaced the scope.
I always liked the way it shoots. The dovetail is a pain. I don't know if I ever got the scope moved forward far enough. It was no big deal to install sling studs. I can't remember if I just drilled the holes small and sort of self tapped the studs in, it seems like that is what I did.
I did not get a scope base although that was always on my list of things to do...maybe this summer.
I hope you post how things are going with this rifle.
Quote from: St8space on February 17, 2017, 04:04:39 PM
I went out and picked up a second rifle. Believe me, I agonized over this one. It's like nobody makes an inexpensive rifle that has everything that I wanted, so I had to make some major compromises:
For now, it feels like a solid rifle and it didn't break the bank (less than a 10/22 without a scope). I think the family will have plenty of fun with this rifle.
I am sure that it will work. If you want to try a Ruger 10/22 without spending a lot of money, go to a gun show and pick up a used one. I know from my buying experiences that the new Ruger 10/22 are more expensive than many of the others. I have not tried a Marlin or Remington rifle and don't have any personal experience on them to make an informed opinion.
All of my practice thus far (both live and dry fire) has been untimed. Today I thought I'd run through the stages against the clock, dry fire. What an eye opener. The second and third stages require blazing speed with that bolt. I can get all the shots off as long as I do everything just right. If I fumble the mag change, forget to turn the safety off for the first shot, or don't get close to NPOA upon sitting, forget about it lol. Also, the pressure of the clock encourages rushing the shots and I am guessing that, had I been firing live, my scores would not have been stellar.
This is also the first time I have worked with my glasses, rather than contacts. All the action makes my glasses start to ride down my nose until I am looking through the upper rim, giving me a doubled scope picture.
Anyway, all of this adds up to increased respect for those who have the patch, particularly those who have done it with a bolt gun.
Suggestions to a Military Rifleman. by Townsend Whelen is a great book on shooting and running a bolt gun.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=39075.msg281721#msg281721
There are also a few threads here with suggestions on shooting score with a bolt.
As EZ3 has said many times, "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast."
Good shots are more important than fast shots. 7 shots in the 5 ring are more than 10 in the 3 ring and misses.
Once you get used to it you will have time left over in stages 2 and 3.
Learn to work the bolt without breaking your cheek weld. If you can find a Rifleman to make sure you aren't engraining bad habits.
Bring someone with you. With a little notice we can get a loaner rifle, sling, mat, etc.
Finally and most importantly RELAX and have FUN. The techniques and the score will come.
Just a guess here but your comb probably isn't high enough and your scope isn't far ahead enough. I can post pics of my Ruger Rimfire American if you want.
Chuck
Hello Chuck. Thanks for the book suggestion. I had been aware of it, but, for whatever reason, never got around to reading it. I was pleasantly surprised to find it on Google Play Books as a free download. The American Rifle is on there as well and I read the first chapter last night.
QuoteLearn to work the bolt without breaking your cheek weld. If you can find a Rifleman to make sure you aren't engraining bad habits.
I've been running the bolt with the rifle shouldered, but I believe that I am lifting my head. Thanks for the tip, because, thinking about it, reacquiring the proper eye relief must be taking a lot of time. I'm going to try to incorporate your advice in my next practice session.
QuoteBring someone with you. With a little notice we can get a loaner rifle, sling, mat, etc.
I signed my son up and got him a rifle to shoot. I suspect bringing the whole family would be too much right now, even with loaners. However, if it gets closer and the shooting line isn't filling up, and they want to come, I might consider having all four of us attend.
QuoteJust a guess here but your comb probably isn't high enough and your scope isn't far ahead enough. I can post pics of my Ruger Rimfire American if you want.
I'd love to see your setup. I am not entirely pleased with how my scope is mounted, but I will work on it in the future as money permits. However, I haven't even attended my first event and I am already daydreaming about a centerfire lol. And there is the rest of the family to consider; I'd love to get them all out there and qualified eventually.
Btw, I realize that this thread is getting a bit long winded. I am not really sure about forum etiquette and splitting threads, so if I should start new threads, let me know. I just know that I enjoyed reading about other's experiences, so I figured this would be a good running commentary for other new shooters. And, as you may have surmised, I do enjoy writing. In fact, I spend about 75% of my professional time doing just that.
My experience with the Remington 597 is they like to be clean. Also to hold the bolt back if you didn't empty the mag is a little tricky. In the mag well is a small pin you need to press while holding the bolt back. I have seen some strong scores shot with them.
Mike
Push that scope as far forward as possible in those rings. I like my 597. Be careful what you feed it. It will like to stay clean. Plan on cleaning Saturday night. They are plenty accurate. Malfunctions have been the issues I have seen. Easiest .22LR mag to load, once they break in. Keepshooting.com has 597 mags on sale TODAY.
Quote from: The Wolfhound on February 20, 2017, 09:06:18 AM
Push that scope as far forward as possible in those rings. I like my 597. Be careful what you feed it. It will like to stay clean. Plan on cleaning Saturday night. They are plenty accurate. Malfunctions have been the issues I have seen. Easiest .22LR mag to load, once they break in. Keepshooting.com has 597 mags on sale TODAY.
Thanks for the tip on keepshooting...can't beat that price, even with shipping. I went ahead and ordered two.
I'm late to the party but I'll share my experience. My first Appleseed I shot I had a bolt action. Boy that was an eye opener! It's an accurate rifle but I'm not near fast enough on the bolt and I had difficulty keeping my position. Hats off to those who can do it with a bolt action, I can't. I found out why semi-autos are the most common on the line, lol. It can be done with a bolt action but a semi-auto makes it easier, at least for me. After that I got a 10/22. When doing mag changes my mags would catch on the sharp edge of the stock. Well 30 seconds with a file to round out those edges made a world of difference.
And don't worry about the clock. Just forget about how much time you have and do you thing, you'll be much better off. I realize that's easier said than done but 1 good shot is better than 3 rushed shots that miss the mark. The speed will come with practice as you become more comfortable.
Good luck and have fun.
Yes indeed d2331, that bolt is screaming in stages 2 and 3, and I'm just dry firing lol. Well, like that exercise guy says, I'm gonna do my best and forget the rest.
Just a quick update. I received my sling and swivels from the Appleseed store yesterday. I mounted the sling on the Remington and tested it out with a standing hasty sling. And guess what? The front stud pulled right out of that cheap plastic stock. So, if anyone has any tips for fixing it, that would be great. I thought about epoxy, but I doubt it will hold. I've done a cursory search for machine thread studs with nuts, but haven't found anything yet...
I have pulled front studs out of plastic stocks, wood stocks, and repaired several other for family and friends.
Typically will use a HB2 (or 2A or 2R) from Harris Bipod. These adapters can be fit into your stock with a little work from a dremel tool, utility knife, small chisel, etc. I then use good old JB weld to hold it in place. On plastic stocks I will "dimple" the plastic with a soldering iron or a heated nail to give the JB a little bit more to grab onto. I don't truly know if it is necessary, but I have not had one fail yet after the repair.
If you get some JB in your threads don't sweat it, just chase them with a tap. Pretty simple. Even a cave man, like me, can do it.
Keep them in the middle & we will see you on the range!! Have a Great American Day!!
I will try to revisit my 597 and see how I got them mounted. My gut feeling is that I drilled the hole or holes smaller than the threads. I do recall pulling the cap off of the back of the stock so I may have mounted that with a nut inside. It seems like I ordered two sets of studs when I did mine.
If the front one is pulling out you may have to do some remediation with epoxy. I would think that a good two part epoxy (or JB Weld) should allow enough strength to anchor it.
I know there are aftermarket stocks available for the rifle too. Boyd's comes to mind.
Thanks for the tip on the Harris stud Square-Eye, that looks like it will work.
QuoteI know there are aftermarket stocks available for the rifle too. Boyd's comes to mind.
As flimsy as the stock stock is, I'll probably end up having to do this eventually, it's just not in the budget right now, so I just have to make do.
By the way goodoldfriend, have a great boot camp!
Please look and see if this might help You with Your sling swivel Problems
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/534909/grovtec-sling-swivel-stud-pack-7-8-machine-screw-with-spacer
St8space,
Thanks, it was great...tiring, but great.
Time for a quick update. So, Jonathan and I drove out to the ODNR range this morning and guess what? Yeah, nobody bothered to show up and open the range. I had called Friday and was assured that the range would indeed be open from 9 to 5, and their website also did not indicate otherwise. We waited until 945, and still nobody showed up. I finally called the poacher hotline (the only number that produced a pulse on the other end) and they claimed that the range is closed until April. Needless to say, I am somewhat aggravated by this. Had I known, I wouldn't have driven an hour there and an hour back, and I would have waited until April to buy my annual permit.
Anyway, to salvage the day, we stopped in at Point Blank (an indoor range) on the way home and shot the Remington for the first time. Earlier in the week I repaired the sling stud, so we were able to do some offhand work. And then came the second disappointment of the day: We pegged the scope all the way to the left and all the way down and it still wouldn't hit to point-of-aim. I guess I should have known that cheap scope mounted to the dovetail grooves was going to be trouble. So, I am not sure how to remedy that issue. I am thinking about just remounting it and seeing if that helps any. If not, I may just have to spring for a decent base, rings, and scope.
On a positive note, I am extremely pleased with how the rifle shot. Jonathan and I were both able to turn in some decent scores on the offhand target using Kentucky windage. Also, we shot about 50 rounds of Federal Automatch, 50 rounds of CCI Mini Mag 36 grain CPHP, and 10 rounds of SK Rifle Match with only one malfunction (failure to feed with the CCI). We currently have four magazines and we tried them all with none displaying any issues. Also on a positive note, I am extremely happy with how Jonathan shot, and I think he really enjoyed getting to shoot the rifle for the first time. He's shot various firearms before, but has never really spent a lot of time shooting, so I couldn't be any more pleased with how well he did. So, the results are below. The upper-left target has a red dot on it to indicate our approximate point-of-aim:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16991873_1421159871260407_1800835269213957752_o.jpg?oh=4cb90a3e12dd531291345dc0f7c6935c&oe=593B2BDE)
Update on the Remington: I did not disassemble the 597 prior to shooting it yesterday, I simply locked the bolt back and ran a bore snake through it to clear any grease from the factory. I see now that was a mistake. I took it apart for cleaning and found considerable grit in the receiver, as if it had been shot outside (recall that we shot in the indoor range because the outdoor range was closed). Furthermore, I found that the barrel was loose, with a considerable gap (maybe a 1/16th or 1/32) opening and closing just by wiggling the rear of the receiver by hand. I checked the wedge screw and it was very tight, wouldn't turn either direction easily. It also appeared as though there was dirty, corroded pipe dope where it threads into the barrel. I know, it shouldn't be pipe dope, but that's what it looked like. Anyway, I turned the wrench around to the long end, ran the screw out and found that the threads are flattened out:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17097662_1422492347793826_5549135985690018931_o.jpg?oh=e54742bd5aec1d57b997a3b408a5346c&oe=5926C919)
It's a wonder we were able to hit anything with the rifle. In fact, it's a wonder we didn't rupture any cases, because the only thing maintaining headspace was the bolt return springs. Now I need to figure out who to contact. I have never seen a new rifle that was that filthy from the factory, which leads me to suspect that someone from Dick's was shooting this rifle and messing around with it. Recall that the scope was poorly mounted, yet another indication that it had been messed with after the factory. The magazine follower did have some carbon on it, but it wasn't excessive, so I had assumed it was from test firing at the factory. Something tells me that either this rifle was returned or that an employee is taking guns out and shooting them...
Just got off the phone with Remington and they were nice-as-could-be and they didn't give me any hassles, so that speaks well of them so far. I have to box the rifle up and send it to them for repair. I am guessing it won't be back in time for April's shoot, so I am hoping Corvette will maybe have a second loaner available :) I'll hit you up as it gets closer and I know more...
I would talk to the manager at Dick's.
St8Space
Sorry to see that you drove all the way to the ODNR range to find that it is closed. If you are driving that far to find a range you can certainly check out the Orwell Gun Club. This is my home range and we will be hosting our first AS in May! The range is open anytime to members and on Monday evenings we are open from 6-8 for members and non-members alike. We also just recently built a indoor air gun range(10 meters) for winter time and for when it is raining. Also if you do not receive the Remington back in time for your AS I have a couple you could use for loaners. Good luck.
Wow, I would call Remington again and let them know you need it for the April event and ask if there is any way it can be expedited. The worst they can say is no.
EGW is the only base I have ever found for that rifle but there might be others. This is a link to their site for the item. You may be able to find it for less elsewhere.
http://www.egwguns.com/scope-mounts/remington-597-picatinny-rail-scope-mount-0-moa/
I searched again and found this for much less cost. I know nothing about the vendor:
http://gnarlygorilla.com/remington-597-tactical-multi-slot-weaver-base
Those look like decent groups to me, very nice. I need to step up my practice and shoot better now!
Weekend Update: On Saturday, I took the Ruger out and got in some more practice. All of the groups are offhand at 25yds with Federal Gold Medal Match, except for the last one, which was CCI Mini Mag 36 gr CPHP:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17192053_1433157626727298_116962378019797178_o.jpg?oh=d27a9564512f8259864702d8d0e5570d&oe=596340D9)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17191987_1433157643393963_266558426867093726_o.jpg?oh=52b61547165a0be93c6ebd16bb158446&oe=5969CE37)
Those smaller targets sure are a challenge offhand. I may have mentioned it, but I sure do love that Ruger.
On the Remington front, I was working on returning it to Remington and that turned out to be more of a hassle than a $200 rifle is worth. So, I decided to fix it myself. The barrel is now mounted properly with no wiggle and the gap between receiver and barrel is closed up. So I took it to the range this morning to get it sighted in. The target below shows basically how that went down. Fixing the barrel issue did seem to bring the group back to the left, but did nothing for the elevation. So I swapped the front scope ring with the rear. The next group fired didn't even hit paper, so I brought the adjustments back to midrange and pulled the target in to 7 yards until I could get close. I fired several groups, making adjustments along the way, and, once it was good, I moved it back to 25 yds. After some more adjustments, I was able to get it grouping very close to point of aim. As a bonus, the adjustments are no longer at their extremes:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17211978_1433157573393970_523163289647155530_o.jpg?oh=1dd80997e7b29d01ef5917a3e5fe6789&oe=595F6D41)
All of that shooting was done resting on the table as best I could (recall that this is an indoor range). I then moved on to some offhand shooting:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17310245_1433157570060637_5590191516648640112_o.jpg?oh=f0bdf064dc8ff526ca822173383c698f&oe=59333BAD)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17191676_1433157566727304_853113692343932896_o.jpg?oh=2bbed312c43b919f3041f67fe0633553&oe=592C8904)
Clearly, as long as the shooter does their part (something I don't always do), the rifle is plenty capable. By the way, the initial sighting in was done with Federal Auto Match, along with some of the CCI Mini Mag 36 gr CPHP. The offhand shooting was done with the CCIs. I had one failure to fire with the Federal Auto Match (good primer strike, so it was definitely the ammo), and no other malfunctions whatsoever. All-in-all, it was a good weekend of shooting.
As an aside, I had a gentleman approach me at the range to ask where I got the targets. He is a Marine veteran and wanted to get some targets like the ones he shot at in the military. I gave him one of mine and briefly told him what I knew about Appleseed. He seemed pretty interested, so, who knows, maybe we'll see him at a future shoot.
Quick Update: I took another brief trip to the indoor range for some practice. I took both rifles and started with the 597. After checking the zero, I decided to try a redcoat with my elbows resting on the range table (my version of prone lol). I was on the 400 yard and pulled my second shot off target :-[ To add insult to injury, the trigger ceased functioning. Switching to the Ruger, I threw five shots at the shingle. Then I made an attempt with the Ruger on a second redcoat. And...close, but no cigar:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/r90/17359372_1440579759318418_8885258353014455944_o.jpg?oh=8326f933276fcb99453fbfa136588b48&oe=596A9DE1)
I then went on to work on a regular qualification target. Stages 1 and 2 are offhand, while stage 3 is with my modified prone. I ran out of ammo on stage 4:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/r90/17349917_1440579765985084_4098901415496010154_o.jpg?oh=c186677e67f5551a5f37eb207d812021&oe=5927228B)
After getting home, I pulled the 597 down and found the mechanism connecting the trigger to the sear disconnected at the sear. The pin is apparently just pressed into the sear. I did some poking around on the internet and found that I am not the only one to experience this issue. In fact, I found a thread wherein an Appleseed instructor was relating similar experiences with two other 597s back around 2014. So, apparently, Remington doesn't see a need to fix their shoddy design (mine was manufactured in 2016). Anyway, I took it apart and pressed the pin back in place and it is functioning for now. Some comments suggested that Remington may mail a replacement trigger group, so I may give that a try. Otherwise, the rifle is quite accurate, as shown in the above target. So, as long as I can keep it functioning, whomever uses this rifle should have a good shot at their patch.
Notice how your groups shrink with the size of the target.
Pick a smaller aiming point on stage one. I suggest the top of the V circle if you can see it.
Sorry to hear about you problems with the Remington. On the bright side you will know the workings of it well.
See you in April,
Chuck
You've got a sharp eye Chuck, thanks for the advice. I think I've just been trying to guesstimate where the center is. I'll pay closer attention in my next practice session and see how well I can make out the V ring and try to aim tighter.
I'll be at New Philadelphia too in April. Fingers crossed the weather breaks a little. When I was there last year, it was sweltering hot.
I'll be using my new Ruger 10/22 w/ scope this time. Hopefully, I fair a little better than I did last year with a carbine length AR w/ iron sights shooting M193 ammo.
I don't know if I'm more excited for the shooting or the history. Corvette's passion and story telling ability is incredible.
Quote from: BamaFan7 on March 17, 2017, 10:50:33 PM
I'll be at New Philadelphia too in April. Fingers crossed the weather breaks a little. When I was there last year, it was sweltering hot.
I'll be using my new Ruger 10/22 w/ scope this time. Hopefully, I fair a little better than I did last year with a carbine length AR w/ iron sights shooting M193 ammo.
I don't know if I'm more excited for the shooting or the history. Corvette's passion and story telling ability is incredible.
I hear ya, I'd rather our first Appleseed not be a winterseed. As to using a centerfire, that'll be somewhere down the road for me. That Ruger should do good by you though, and it's so much cheaper. I've missed owning a .22...it's so nice to be able to go out and shoot on a regular basis without breaking the bank. I am intrigued by the history myself, and it will definitely be good for the kids to hear as well. What they teach in schools these days is a mockery of our nation and it makes me sick. I look forward to seeing you there.
Does anyone know what the typical course-of-fire at the New Philadelphia Appleseed will be? In particular, will the stages be broken up with preparation periods, or will it be shot as one continuous stage? Or do I need to prepare for both? I am going to order a spare magazine for my Ruger as a panic magazine, but I'd rather not spend 80 dollars on four if they aren't necessary...
EZ3's daughter shot score at her first Appleseed with a bolt gun and ONE seven round magazine. (7 fives are worth more the 10 threes)
You should have at least 2 magazines. There is a post in deals and steals about mags for $11 somewhere and if you go on eBay you can get 3 mags for a little over $36 including shipping.
There will be the red coat which is 13 rounds, squares for sighting in with instruction in between 5 rounds per square, stage 2 and 3 need two mags prepped 2 rounds and 8 rounds, ball and dummy drill is easier with two mags.
I have extra mags unless all my rifles are loaned out.
This is another reason to look at the entire "system" (gun, magazines,ammunition) when purchasing a firearm. Without a magazine you firearm is little more than a poorly shaped rock or club. Especially if it has a dangerous magazine disconnect rendering your gun ineffective if the magazine falls out.
A 10/22 cost more up front but shares mags with your Ruger American Rimfire. Ruger mags are comparatively cheap, if you have time and shop around, and are available almost every where, if you need it NOW. (See rock/club comment above) I've never heard anyone complaining that they had too many magazines, too many different magazines that don't interchange is another story. Nothing like showing up at the range with mags that don't work with your exotic gun in an off caliber and can't even barrow something to get by.
If I was starting over from zero I would buy 10/22, 9mm Glocks, 5.56x45 AR mil spec rifles, and a pump 12 gage. This is just my personal preference. I've been in this game for along time and have odd stuff and it is a pain sometimes. I have a 357 Sig, expensive and hard to find.
Just my $0.02 that depreciates every day.
To the groups being larger on the larger targets:
As mentioned by Charles Mckinley, your groups get bigger as the targets get bigger. Why is that?
I will tell you...., it is because you are staring at the target. It is VERY EASY to do on the targets as they get larger.
I use this as a teaching point when someone cleans the Redcoat target. I mean, they hit the shingle, 400 and 300 targets were tiny cloverleafs. 200 and 100 target groups were large. Only ONE reason for this and that is staring at the target.
Does not matter if one is using irons or a scope, it will be the same result ALWAYS if you are staring at the target.
Try keeping intense focus on the front sight or reticle for the rapid seated and standing portions and you will see improved results.
R/
Chris
Overenthusiastic,
Please take some time and read this post, it is more of what I have alluded to above.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=50101.0
R/
Chris
Lastly (for now),
Are your shots on call?
Simple question, but.....if you are not calling the shots, then you are NOT FOCUSED on the front sight.
I'd venture to say that you are not calling your shots on the 100 yard target (standing).
Start FORCING yourself to keep that eye open, and stay focused on that front sight. You will see marked improvement if you learn to discipline yourself to CALL the shot.
We TEACH/PREACH calling the shot, but sadly to say....many have no idea what that is.
I take videos, or have others take videos so I can critique myself.
This is one of me practicing on the SCATT system a few weeks ago. I am shooting on a simulated 600 yard target, it is fairly realistic with the exception of wind.
CALLING the shot! I am calling the shot in this vid, albeit fast....before looking at the shot value on the SCATT.
You will see the last shot (2nd shot) was INSIDE my call..., I called it a 10, and it was actually an X.
THIS is what shot calling is about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL9WAsBwUBE
R/
Chris
Quote from: Charles McKinley on March 18, 2017, 11:30:04 AM
EZ3's daughter shot score at her first Appleseed with a bolt gun and ONE seven round magazine. (7 fives are worth more the 10 threes)
You should have at least 2 magazines. There is a post in deals and steals about mags for $11 somewhere and if you go on eBay you can get 3 mags for a little over $36 including shipping.
There will be the red coat which is 13 rounds, squares for sighting in with instruction in between 5 rounds per square, stage 2 and 3 need two mags prepped 2 rounds and 8 rounds, ball and dummy drill is easier with two mags.
I have extra mags unless all my rifles are loaned out.
This is another reason to look at the entire "system" (gun, magazines,ammunition) when purchasing a firearm. Without a magazine you firearm is little more than a poorly shaped rock or club. Especially if it has a dangerous magazine disconnect rendering your gun ineffective if the magazine falls out.
A 10/22 cost more up front but shares mags with your Ruger American Rimfire. Ruger mags are comparatively cheap, if you have time and shop around, and are available almost every where, if you need it NOW. (See rock/club comment above) I've never heard anyone complaining that they had too many magazines, too many different magazines that don't interchange is another story. Nothing like showing up at the range with mags that don't work with your exotic gun in an off caliber and can't even barrow something to get by.
If I was starting over from zero I would buy 10/22, 9mm Glocks, 5.56x45 AR mil spec rifles, and a pump 12 gage. This is just my personal preference. I've been in this game for along time and have odd stuff and it is a pain sometimes. I have a 357 Sig, expensive and hard to find.
Just my $0.02 that depreciates every day.
I have two for the Ruger and four for the 597. I am going to get a third for the Ruger as a panic mag and just in case one goes bad. I had read elsewhere in the forums that sometimes they run a single, long stage that requires six magazines, but it sounds like I needn't be concerned about that.
As to oddballs, I once owned a Savage model 99 chambered in .358. There was only one factory loading at the time, it was almost impossible to find, and extremely expensive when you did. But man did I love that rifle. It had the older, non-detachable 5 round rotary magazine, the straight pistolgrip stock, and a Williams peep sight. It was a joy to just hold that rifle, and I could shoot 4" groups at 100 yards with it.
Then I had a S&W 1006 in the early 90s. Again, so hard to find ammo and it was not cheap. But, it was a beautifully made handgun and a sweet shooter.
I should never have gotten rid of either of those, but, out of practicality, I did. I'd love to have them back, especially that Savage.
Quote from: navybowhunter on March 18, 2017, 12:40:24 PM
Lastly (for now),
Are your shots on call?
Simple question, but.....if you are not calling the shots, then you are NOT FOCUSED on the front sight.
I'd venture to say that you are not calling your shots on the 100 yard target (standing).
Start FORCING yourself to keep that eye open, and stay focused on that front sight. You will see marked improvement if you learn to discipline yourself to CALL the shot.
We TEACH/PREACH calling the shot, but sadly to say....many have no idea what that is.
I take videos, or have others take videos so I can critique myself.
This is one of me practicing on the SCATT system a few weeks ago. I am shooting on a simulated 600 yard target, it is fairly realistic with the exception of wind.
CALLING the shot! I am calling the shot in this vid, albeit fast....before looking at the shot value on the SCATT.
You will see the last shot (2nd shot) was INSIDE my call..., I called it a 10, and it was actually an X.
THIS is what shot calling is about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL9WAsBwUBE
R/
Chris
Thanks for the advice. I know with irons to focus on the front sight, but I never really thought about it with a scope because it almost feels like they are on the same plane. I do call my shots to a certain extent, but nothing formal (no notebook). I am probably much more diligent with this in dry fire because there is no hole in the target to tell me where I hit. When shooting "furreals", I am not very precise about it, but I can definitely tell you when I am way off. Something else to keep in mind for my future sessions. I need to start noting this stuff down so that I can review it just before I shoot.
Quote from: navybowhunter on March 18, 2017, 12:28:40 PM
To the groups being larger on the larger targets:
I use this as a teaching point when someone cleans the Redcoat target. I mean, they hit the shingle, 400 and 300 targets were tiny cloverleafs. 200 and 100 target groups were large. Only ONE reason for this and that is staring at the target.
100% agree that staring at the target will result in larger groups for larger targets. That is if you are trying to get tiny groups on all targets.
If all you care about is hits, like on the Redcoat from the prone position, the other explanation for larger groups on larger targets is that the larger targets can be shot faster with less concentration. If the object is to hit the target, and not necessarily have tiny groups, there is simply no need to spend as much time.
This happens all the time when I shoot 3Gun. I'm going to have larger groups on a rifle target that is 25 yards away than one that is 200 yards away...simply because the 25 yarder is so easy to hit.
But...it doesn't take away from the fact that staring at the target is "a bad thing" (TM)
Quote from: St8space on March 18, 2017, 10:12:18 AM
I am going to order a spare magazine for my Ruger as a panic magazine, but I'd rather not spend 80 dollars on four if they aren't necessary...
I don't know if I replied to this but I think this might be a good deal on the Ruger mags.
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/44912
I am a little excessive (LOL) I usually have 5 or 6 mags that I run when I shoot an event. I do my best to stay prepped and in the bubble.
Also...what good advice about where focus needs to be. I guess I knew that but I am questioning if I do it or not. Looks like a good excuse to schedule some trigger time.
Several eBay sellers have the 3 packs for $36 with shipping included.
The shipping in the above post starts at $7.00.
As Charles said trigger time is valuable. Whether it be a 22, high power or a air gun. The CMP sells the daisy single shot reconditioned for 105. (thanks Charles). Stupid accurate and a great training tool in your backyard or even in your basement. Your eye cannot focus on three things at once. You have to pick something. Pick the front sight! As far as number of mags go well I now have 7. I found it easier to charge mags at one time before a cof in order to keep more focused during it.
It's the evening before Appleseed! So, time for a last minute update, and it's a big one. I went out and bought a KD rifle. That means that I now have a rifle for each of us (me and my two kids). So my son gets to shoot a brand spankin' new AR-15, and he is very excited about that. Unfortunately the scope that I ordered that was supposed to get here today didn't. They changed the delivery date to tomorrow at about 1 this afternoon. Sigh. Oh well, it WAS rather last minute. Anyways, so I had to take the scope off my bolt gun and mount it on the AR-15. Which means I am back to Tech Sites. Bolt Gun + Peep Sites = Rifleman not likely LOL. Either way, who cares, as long as we all have fun and learn to shoot better, and I am sure we will. Very exciting indeed. So, here's the new gun, along with my bolt gun wearing peeps:
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17833995_1471585292884531_4926435282029899328_o.jpg?oh=eb150c2cb00d0f300119ea8c582e641e&oe=599A7137)
I actually do like the look of those Tech Sites on my Ruger, but they are definitely going to put my eyes to the test. By the way, the AR is a Colt Competition CBA-16H from Cabelas. It's a very basic gun that was reasonably priced. And they claim MOA accuracy. We'll see. Eventually. As for now, I took it to the indoor range and got the scope fairly well sighted in while leaning on the table. It ran flawlessly for the 30 or so rounds I put through it. After getting the scope close, I threw ten shots into the 100 yarder offhand and managed a 48. Not too shabby I reckon:
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17807625_1471586796217714_5240515379333055528_o.jpg?oh=b8de4d84dc20e32830bc8a72c5494fee&oe=594E24D5)
Then I went ahead and checked the peeps on the Ruger. They were still surprisingly close. Then I did some offhand work with it and managed my best score to date, a 49. Heck, I may even shoot better with the irons. Well, realistically, those 400 yarders are illusive to my weak eyes, I have to admit. But I am looking forward to the challenge anyway:
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17834205_1471586799551047_8201544880770709795_o.jpg?oh=99af9e2fb93bf7d4b996b68f9ed1b279&oe=595D2FEA)
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17834075_1471585652884495_4379086307532440502_o.jpg?oh=acd71b0c897efa93c4f353ffd26b3855&oe=5959AC6F)
So, here's to a good weekend of shooting. See ya'll in the morning.
We pray this will be a safe and memorable weekend for all on site. With Corvette, you are in good hands. Pay attention to the instruction. Pay attention to what happens. We are anxious to hear the blow by blow in a few days when you have recovered.
Okay, so here goes, the wrap up for this thread. Hopefully I can remember everything.
So, the weekend started off chilly, in the upper 30's, low 40's. We began with a thorough safety briefing and moved immediately into a redcoat. Unfortunately, I didn't mark the targets, and now I really cannot remember which is which. We shot a redcoat in the morning and at the end of each day. I never cleared it, but I came mighty close:
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After our first redcoat, we moved on to some solid instruction on the prone position and the six steps to completing a shot. We shot some squares after each block of instruction:
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Then we talked about natural point of aim (NPOA) and did a drill wherein we practiced shifting NPOA and firing one shot into each square:
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Next, we learned about MOA and sight adjustment, followed up with adjusting our sights and confirming our zero:
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This brought us to the sitting positions and some practice, as well as the standing position and practice:
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That wrapped up the shooting and instruction for day one. Of course, we had a great heritage lesson or two, as well as a wonderful lunch, complements of our hosts.
Back at the hotel, I noticed that I seemed to be grouping a bit low, which wasn't a problem on the larger targets, but was definitely causing me to miss the 400 yarders. Thus, after some cleaning, I bumped my rear sight up two clicks.
Day two started with another block of instruction on safety. Then we moved on to a redcoat (shown above) and then a lengthy review of all we had learned on the previous day. We also got some more details regarding the patriots who built this great nation. After some more practice squares, we moved on to instruction on the AQT.
We began with a practice AQT and I managed to get off all of my shots before time was called. I also managed an encouraging 208:
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It seemed like I was tending high at this point, so I split the difference and brought my sight back down one click.
Then, for the first "furreals" AQT, I pulled off a healthy 225:
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I followed that up with a 217 wherein I screwed up on the sitting and put six shots into the first target:
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Next up, Jennifer and I swapped positions, with her shooting my bolt gun and me shooting a loaner 10/22 with a 3 power scope. That 10/22 shot great for me (another 225) and not having to work a bolt made for a more relaxed AQT:
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Finally, back in my position with the bolt gun, I rounded out my AQT's with a personal best score of 231:
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If I had to point out the most important factor for obtaining rifleman for me, it would have to be patience. And here's why. You get down in position and you just want to pull that trigger (well, I do anyway). Problem is, completing the six steps and getting a good NPOA takes time. If I rushed and didn't do my work, it definitely showed up on the target.
As to using a bolt gun, it was not an issue at all. I never failed to complete all of my COFs. However, if someone were interested in using a bolt action, I'd highly recommend considerable dry fire in position, working the bolt. The way that I personally manipulated the bolt was based upon a technique I had read about in Townsend Whelen's "Suggetions to Military Rifleman." Basically, I rolled the end of the barrel slightly (maybe 2 to 4 inches) to the right and down, angling the rifle as I went, while still keeping my face in contact with the rifle. This brought the bolt into range of my right hand and I was able to grasp it fully and run it sharply through its cycle. Then I rolled the rifle back up and, because my face was still in position, my cheek weld never really changed. This worked really well for me.
Tech Sites were a huge challenge. Depending upon lighting, I often found that I simply could not see the 400 yarders (my eyesight is not great). So, I aligned my sights, concentrated on the front post, and guesstimated where the target was based upon the overall geometry and spacing of the AQT target. This actually ended up working pretty well. None of the other ranges gave me this trouble. Regardless, while I am extremely pleased to have scored rifleman with these sights, I will probably go back to a scope moving forward. It sure did bring back fond memories of shooting my M16s in the Army though.
So there it is, I am a qualified rifleman once again, 16 years after leaving the Army. My next challenge is to coach Jonathan and Jennifer to their patches.
A big thank you to Project Appleseed for such an outstanding program, and to all of the wonderful instructors who participated this weekend. See you next time...
St8space,
It was such a pleasure to meet you, Jennifer and Jonathan this past weekend. In all my time with Appleseed, I have never had a shooter prepare as hard as you did. And all that work paid off with your Rifleman scores.
My hat is off to you sir. As a guy that needed five Appleseeds to figure it out, I envy someone who got there so quickly.
Looking forward to seeing you soon on the Appleseed trail. Huzzah, we have a man amongst us that knows quite well what he is about.
Corvette