Instructors, IITs, Ohio Riflemen
Just wanted to give everybody the heads up that we will be doing two Full distance Appleseeds at Tusco in New Philidelphia, Ohio in 2017.
These events are open to Instructors, IITs, and Ohio Riflemen and Riflewomen. These are centerfire only events and unlike last year, we will not be shooting in flights so all should get more trigger time than we got last year.
The dates are:
June 10 & 11, 2017
November 11 & 12, 2017
Keep an eye on the schedule and sign up early as I expect both of these shoots to sell out. More details to come as they get closer.
Corvette
Looks like I'd better start saving up for a scope. Somehow, another year hasn't improved the vision as far as long-distance with iron sights... :snipersmi
Get you spots while they are hot. Shooting full distance is the next challenge after your patch.
Corvette
Signed up for June.
Forgive my ignorance. Is there a different patch that you can earn at the KD event? I earned my first rifleman last year at Liberty Center and I am attending the Winterseed tomorrow. I know that there is a blue patch than can only be earned at a Winterseed by scoring 210+ on the AQT.
I guess the only other question is this. If one scores a 210 at a Winterseed, is snow from New England dumped on you instead of water?
Quote from: Mutant Texan on January 27, 2017, 08:07:25 PM
Signed up for June.
Forgive my ignorance. Is there a different patch that you can earn at the KD event? I earned my first rifleman last year at Liberty Center and I am attending the Winterseed tomorrow. I know that there is a blue patch than can only be earned at a Winterseed by scoring 210+ on the AQT.
I guess the only other question is this. If one scores a 210 at a Winterseed, is snow from New England dumped on you instead of water?
;D ;D ;D I love it! And yes, qualifying at full distance gets you a rocker for your Isaac Davis patch and the undying adulation of your (wannabe) peers.
Wet Sight and I are registered for June. Sorry Corvette, you'll be stuck with us again!
Really looking forward to it.
I got on the June roster too...
I wonder if all the Winterseed cast of characters will be present for this event?
Looking forward to seeing you folks again!
It's great to see KD events on the schedule. I can't make the June shoot as we have a 2 day at the CMP range in Talladega that weekend but the November dates are a possibility. I might even convince my designated driver MO to accompany me. ;)
Wreck
I signed up as Instructor....but I, as always, would like to throw a few rounds downrange. I took care of my Match King handloads at the last KD, and would like to sight in for the 55gr factory rounds.
I signed up for June. I plan to camp on sight.
Booked for June! this should be a blast! (hehehehe).
I guess I am a hog...LOL
I booked for June and November.
Plan on camping both times.
I signed up for the KD event this June. I am looking forward to this very much.
I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of an analog ballistics drop computer being used at a KD event? I was looking at something like this Whiz Wheel (https://www.accuracy1stdg.com/store/itemDetail.cfm?prodID=504) but it is a lot more complicated than what I am looking for. I am looking for a simple calculator that can give me the bullet rise/drop for a M855 round fired from a 20" barrel at a -20°, -10°, 0°, 10° and 20°. The different firing angles would give me a wide array of firing solutions for shooting at targets at different elevations.
I have used some of my ideas to design a computer on paper but I would rather use an existing tool rather than built my own if possible. It just has to be "simple" meaning it takes into account only 2 variables; range and angle between me and the target. The output that I want would just be the MOA above or below the 300 yard zero. You simply rotate the range wheel to line up the target's range and the final adjustment wheel to account for the angle.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php I found this site recently and the outputs appear to be "reasonable". I can't vouch for the accuracy of the calculator but it does match up with a 25 yard and ~300 yard zero for the AR-15.
StrelokPro
Corvette,
I am wondering if you could take a few minutes and describe how the event's SOFs will happen?
I am sure that we will be walking a lot more to shoot a KD event than we do at the 25 m event. I want to make sure that I get ready for the additional walking so I won't be so beat and sore....LOL
As you know my home range is Wilmington so I can get some practice in at 100 and 200 yards. Will see if I can hit anything....LOL
Also, can anyone give me advice on getting sighted in? I just got a scope mount for my MSR and am planning on working with it at 25 m this coming weekend. I think I can get it sighted in at 25. What should I expect if I go out to 50, 100, and 200? If I remember the KD portion of the events the come ups that are taught for the 55 grain 5.56 rounds are:
If the rifle is sighted in at 100
2 MOA for 200
2 more MOA for 300
3 more MOA for 400
4 more MOA for 500
5 more MOA for 600
But, if I remember right, if sighted in for 25, it should be on or close at 300, correct?
If so, wouldn't I be adjusting down to get on paper if I was going from 25 to 100?
Or, should I just sight in at 25, move to 50, get sighted in, making notes of the adjustment,
Then go to 75 or 100 and do the same?
I can post this question in another forum if there is one that is more appropriate.
Thanks
Quote from: goodoldfriend on February 13, 2017, 01:37:33 PM
But, if I remember right, if sighted in for 25, it should be on or close at 300, correct?
If so, wouldn't I be adjusting down to get on paper if I was going from 25 to 100?
Yes and yes. Record the 25, 100, and 200 yard zero for your rifle and ammo; I wouldn't bother with 50 or 75 yards. 25 should be a good start at 300, and you can use Ballistic AE or Strelok Pro to check your zeros and estimate a 400 yard zero. I shot my first KD last summer with no 400 yard dope, and Ballistic's predicted 400 yard zero was 16" high. 200 and 300 were good, though, and I qualified on the second AQT. Good luck!
Maxwell, Thanks!
Now how about the physical aspect of doing the KD.
Can anyone comment on what it will involve at this location? I just want to make sure I plan for the physical level of activity so I can do my best to get some conditioning in before the event. Like starting now....LOL
Quote from: goodoldfriend on February 14, 2017, 12:54:17 PM
Maxwell, Thanks!
Now how about the physical aspect of doing the KD.
Can anyone comment on what it will involve at this location? I just want to make sure I plan for the physical level of activity so I can do my best to get some conditioning in before the event. Like starting now....LOL
Having exactly one day of KD under my belt, here's what stuck out: we were carrying our rifles and mat/mags/ammo/water/notebook/etc between 100-200-300-400 yard lines, for each stage of an AQT. Drink lots of water, and organize your gear. I wasted time digging around in my rucksack for mags and shooting glove. Did I mention drinking a lot of water? A 5-hour drive home with heat exhaustion was no fun. If you can, practice walking back and forth between 100 and 200 lines with your mat, rifle, and other gear.
Hopefully someone local can fill you in on whether you have to walk or drive up and paste targets between stages.
Maxwell,
Again, thanks. I will start thinking about how to organize for the event and start walking, walking, walking.
What will be expected in terms of round counts for each day?
Is the flow something like this...
Place equipment at 100, make line safe.
Go to target backers, post targets. Back to 100. Shoot SOF for that stage.
Go to target backers, post new targets or whatever is needed. Back to 100, gather stuff, go to 200, set up line. Shoot SOF for that stage.
Repeat above for 300.
Repeat above for 400.
Do it all again for the next KD AQT.
If that is the case I am going to have to step it up!!! Time to drag my bicycle out of the garage and build up some miles.
At least I have a couple months to get things in order.
I broke six ribs in a motorcyle accident 2 weeks ago but I am on the mend and still plan to attend in June. I want that patch bad. I will be slinging up and dry firing no later than this weekend. I was close with a 37 last year , but we ran out of time. :snipersmi
We need to get Longrifleman out to one of these events....Hint, hint. Someone work him over. By the way, he can shoot.
I would like to ask some questions about the equipment used at the KD. Please, I don't want opinions. I want the facts from direct observations.
I am planning to use an AR-15 in an A2 model (handle, iron sights and 20" barrel). Do these longer barrelled rifles tend to be more forgiving?
I am also trying to figure out what ammo is best. I have lots of the M193 and M855 ammo but that is it. Which ammo flavor has been the more common load for scoring a rifleman score at a KD even?
Does putting a different barrel with a length of 22" to 24" allow a shooter to make fewer rear sight adjustments as the range rises?
Mutant Texan,
There are many variables with any rifle and its ammo when it comes to shooting at distance. This is a situation where you need to work ahead of time to know the specifics of your own eqipment. You need to pick a rifle and the ammo you plan to shoot. Then you need to work at your home range (if possible) to know what your rifle does at the various distances we will shoot at the KD. The come-ups we offer at our standard Appleseed are just a guide, you need to pick a rifle and ammo and do some work ahead of time to know what your come-ups will be at the event.
Shooting at full distance is hard. I am still working on my own full distance rocker patch myself. But Riflemen persist so find some time to work on your rifle of choice. Know what you adjustments will need to be when the time comes.
Good luck, see you in New Philly.
Corvette
Quote from: Mutant Texan on May 02, 2017, 12:15:54 AM
I am also trying to figure out what ammo is best. I have lots of the M193 and M855 ammo but that is it. Which ammo flavor has been the more common load for scoring a rifleman score at a KD even?
You're probably not going to like this response as it violates your initial criteria, as well as being anecdotal. But, for what it's worth, I had a break in service when I was in the Army, so I shot both the M16A1 with M193 and the M16A2 with M855. I was able to qualify expert with both. I will say that I struggled more with the A1 than I did with the A2. However, to be fair, my A1 was slap worn out (I was in an MI unit at the time, so all of our equipment was worn out hand-me-downs). Btw, the maximum range for the Army qualification at that time was 300 meters.
Hi Mutant,
Take a sample of each out and see which is grouping better for you. That is what I'd bring. At 400 yards 193 is fine.
193 is fine at 400 yards, even in wind up to 20 mph sustained, with gusts to 28 mph, with a 16" barrel. This is what we had this past weekend in FL. Breezy!
For the details on this, See: https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=50987.msg343959#msg343959
Interestingly enough, in these high wind conditions, shooters using come-ups tended to do better than those using pure BSZ techniques this past weekend. Come-ups are slightly more accurate, and leave a little more room for accommodating more wind effect errors. BSZ works well, though, in cases where the wind is less, and lesser accuracy can be tolerated, but it is admittedly not as precise as using come-ups.
I find that 855 does OK up to 300 yards in my 1:9.5 twist barrel, but it opens up at 400 yards. In a faster twist barrel, though, say 1:7 twist, it should be plenty accurate with respect to grouping, and the slightly heavier bullet should do better in wind, too. YMMV You always just have to test your ammo with your rifle to know for sure.
--gb
I was finally able to find time and do some homework. My RRA NM AR-15 is advertised as having 1/4 MOA adjustable sights.
I sighted my rifle for 25 Meters at the last Appleseed (earned my third patch with it) and verified it again today. I then did what any good rifleman would do and gouged a mark in the rear sight to permanently mark the 25 Meter zero.
I then setup a 23" x 35" BC-27 Target and shot 5 rounds through it from 100 yards. The rounds hit above where I was aiming as expected. I next moved the rear sight down by 20 clicks (almost a full rotation) and shot it with 5 more rounds. I then moved the rear sight up by 40 clicks to make it set for 20 clicks above the 25 Meter zero and shot it with another 5 rounds.
I shot all the groups from prone. I took my time to find the NPOA by closing my eyes and wiggling around, settling and then opening my eyes. I adjusted as necessary and checked the NPOA. My point of aim was in the center area of a big blurry green silhouette because I was focused on the front sight post.
The results are encouraging. I was measured about 5" between the top and center groups and 6" between the bottom and center groups. This is in line with my expected 5" change of group location based on the 5 MOA adjustments that I made.
I am pretty happy with the results. The largest group was 3.25" in diameter and well within the 4 MOA Rifleman standard. The 2nd group at the bottom had a very nice tight group of 3 holes about 1" across.
My plan is to only adjust the rear sight for shooting at 100 yards by going down 20 clicks, shooting 200 to 300 yards with the 25 Meter zero and then adjusting the rear sight up by 20 clicks for 400 yards, and 40 clicks up from the 25 Meter zero for 500 yards.
Quote from: unforgiven1203 on April 25, 2017, 12:05:36 PM
I broke six ribs in a motorcyle accident 2 weeks ago but I am on the mend and still plan to attend in June. I want that patch bad. I will be slinging up and dry firing no later than this weekend. I was close with a 37 last year , but we ran out of time. :snipersmi
Unfortunately I am not healed enough to sling and get in position quickly (way too painful, still). I sent an email on the scheduling page about transfering to the november shoot. Have fun without me.
Quote from: Corvette on January 26, 2017, 02:17:13 PM
Instructors, IITs, Ohio Riflemen
Just wanted to give everybody the heads up that we will be doing two Full distance Appleseeds at Tusco in New Philidelphia, Ohio in 2017.
These events are open to Instructors, IITs, and Ohio Riflemen and Riflewomen. These are centerfire only events and unlike last year, we will not be shooting in flights so all should get more trigger time than we got last year.
The dates are:
June 10 & 11, 2017
November 11 & 12, 2017
Keep an eye on the schedule and sign up early as I expect both of these shoots to sell out. More details to come as they get closer.
Corvette
Corvette, I have 3 full-size silhouettes I can bring next month if that will help? :snipersmi
EZ3,
If you are talking about the full size Applseed silhouettes I have more than enough for the event. We will be doing it differently this year. We will have a fixed target line and we will move between firing lines. Should work better and faster than last year.
See you soon.
Corvette
Quote from: Corvette on May 22, 2017, 07:10:23 PM
EZ3,
If you are talking about the full size Applseed silhouettes I have more than enough for the event. We will be doing it differently this year. We will have a fixed target line and we will move between firing lines. Should work better and faster than last year.
See you soon.
Corvette
Sorry, I forgot to specify "steel" silhouettes (I have more than three of the paper ones). Never crossed my mind that you wouldn't have it covered, Corvette! ;)
I am currently working in Illinois. I will not be able to get back to Ohio for the first KD event this year due to vacation and schedule conflicts with my supervisor. I am bummed about it because I have been working on learning my rifle's characteristics at long ranges.
May I change my registration to the next event in November? This would allow someone else to take my spot in June.
Quote from: unforgiven1203 on May 20, 2017, 08:24:21 AM
Quote from: unforgiven1203 on April 25, 2017, 12:05:36 PM
I broke six ribs in a motorcyle accident 2 weeks ago but I am on the mend and still plan to attend in June. I want that patch bad. I will be slinging up and dry firing no later than this weekend. I was close with a 37 last year , but we ran out of time. :snipersmi
Unfortunately I am not healed enough to sling and get in position quickly (way too painful, still). I sent an email on the scheduling page about transfering to the november shoot. Have fun without me.
So I recieved a cancellation email for the June shoot but nothing about being registered for the November shoot. Does anyone Know what the status is?
Am I registered for November?
Unforgiven1203,
I will make sure the transfer to Nov happens.
Corvette
Quote from: Corvette on May 23, 2017, 07:48:14 PM
Unforgiven1203,
I will make sure the transfer to Nov happens.
Corvette
They got it all taken care of! Thanks Corvette!
Corvette,
How many rounds (approximately) to bring?
I think we went thru about 220 rounds last year.
We are taking a different approach this year which I hope will give everybody more rounds down range. I would bring 500 rounds to be safe. That should be plenty.
Corvette
Though I am not able to attend this great event, I have several friends that are. If they are camping, what time should/could they arrive Friday? I will also tell them to bring 500 rounds of ammo.
Tell them it's ok to get there when ever it is convienient. Tell them to set up on top of the hill next to the trap house. That will be our focal point for campers. Looking forward to the event. Not sure I will be as ready as I want but it will be a great event in any case.
Corvette
Sounds great. 500 rounds is no problem. Really looking forward to it.
Quote from: Corvette on May 29, 2017, 04:19:00 PM
Tell them it's ok to get there when ever it is convienient. Tell them to set up on top of the hill next to the trap house. That will be our focal point for campers. Looking forward to the event. Not sure I will be as ready as I want but it will be a great event in any case.
Corvette
Let me know if I can help.
Corvette,
Even though I am coming to shoot I am ready to help with anything, just let me know. I will put the needs of AS first. I will have the orange hat with me.
Thanks, Matt
Question:
Will we be doing some work at 25 meters the first day to help establish a good zero?
I had some issues with the rifle that I was going to bring that I was not able to resolve. I moved the optic to another rifle but have not fully sighted it in yet.
Thanks, Matt
Hello shooters,
The New Philly full distance event is almost here. I will be emailing DonDs course of fire and KD information to everybody tonight. Print it out and bring it with you. I can't do the job presenting all this but we will all work to try and gain some knowledge from it. If anybody has any last minute questions, let me know.
Corvette
Would someone mind printing me up a spare? I will not have access to a printer.
thanks!
Corvette,
Is it the same material as last year?
We still have our copies.
Since I started the new job I don't have the kind of access I used to have to printers. They monitor almost everything here.
Is it possible someone can print an extra copy for me too?
I hate to ask but...
Thanks, Matt
Wish I'd seen this earlier. I have my copy from last year, but won't be at work tomorrow. I could have printed. Sorry.
To everybody, yes this is the same materials as last year's shoot. I will try to get a couple extra copies printed off for those of you that can't get it printed off before the weekend. See you all soon.
Corvette
Unfortunately I have to cancel again.This will open up a slot for someone. sending pm to corvette
Unforgiven,
See my PM re your comment.
Corvette
Cancellation done. So , there is a open spot. Corvette, I sent you a message with my info last night.
Thanks.
Now able to get out of working next weekend. Trying to sign up, and event is showing full. Added myself to the wait list. Sending PM to Corvette.